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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

PearlSeeker

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
I assumed he was referring to this;

The rapture is an eschatological concept held by some Christians, particularly within branches of American evangelicalism, consisting of an end-time event when all Christian believers who are alive, along with resurrected believers, will rise "in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

Study what I actually said about Faith Healing. There are more deaths caused by faith healings than cures. Referring to the people who believe god will cure them or a placebo. It would be pointless if placebos saved more than they killed.
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OK. Thanks for explanation. Sometimes I use dictionary to communicate in English ...

Even Bible is against incautious use of faith: Matthew 4:5-7
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
Did Bahaullah have 1 dream about god or many?

Are dreams real?

Did Bahaullah write 1400 tablets based on the 1 dream?
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I am sorry for the apparent misunderstanding. When Baha'u'llah said He was asleep in His couch that was just a metaphor. What it means is that it was just sitting there unaware and then the Holy Spirit caught Him by surprise.
So you can read the passages below again with that thought in mind.

According to my understanding Baha'u'llah wrote His Tablets over a period of about 40 years, from when He first received His intimations of a Revelation from God in the Black Pit prison in 1852 until He died in 1892.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

Baha'u'llah wrote far in excess of 15,000 Tablets, but those are only the Tablets that survived. Far more than those were thrown in the Tigris River.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I am sorry for the apparent misunderstanding. When Baha'u'llah said He was asleep in His couch that was just a metaphor. What it means is that it was just sitting there unaware and then the Holy Spirit caught Him by surprise.
So you can read the passages below again with that thought in mind.

According to my understanding Baha'u'llah wrote His Tablets over a period of about 40 years, from when He first received His intimations of a Revelation from God in the Black Pit prison in 1852 until He died in 1892.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

“God is My witness, O people! I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me, and My tongue was unloosed to voice His Call.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 90

“And whenever I chose to hold my peace and be still, lo, the voice of the Holy Ghost, standing on my right hand, aroused me, and the Supreme Spirit appeared before my face, and Gabriel overshadowed me, and the Spirit of Glory stirred within my bosom, bidding me arise and break my silence. If your hearing be purged and your ears be attentive, ye will assuredly perceive that every limb of my body, nay all the atoms of my being, proclaim and bear witness to this call: “God, besides Whom is none other God, and He, Whose beauty is now manifest, is the reflection of His glory unto all that are in heaven and on earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 103-104

Baha'u'llah wrote far in excess of 15,000 Tablets, but those are only the Tablets that survived. Far more than those were thrown in the Tigris River.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.” God Passes By, pp. 137-138
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Thank you for correcting me.

When he wrote he was asleep, he meant he was awake!!!

When he said "I was asleep on My couch, when lo, the Breeze of God wafting over Me roused Me from My slumber. His quickening Spirit revived Me" he was already awake. Thank you for setting me right!!!

The quantity of his writings isn't important. It's the quality.

Still waiting for your evidence on my post about prophets. You must know exactly where it is if you've studied it.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
Where is your evidence for life on every planet?
Where is your evidence for Bahaullah getting a message from god?
Where is your evidence for evolution being started by god?
Where is your evidence that menstruation needs you to not pray as much and repeat 95 times a day between one noon and the next, the verse “Glorified be God, the Lord of Splendour and Beauty”.?
Where is your evidence for Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham being messengers from god?
Where is your evidence of anyone being a messenger?

You say I have evidence when you should say I believe.
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I never said I have any evidence of the things you referred to above.
I said "I have evidence and I researched the evidence, and then I believed."
By "evidence" I meant the evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Once one believes that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, then they accept that everything He wrote is true, because we believe that He spoke as the Voice of God, and God is All-Knowing.

So we believe it is the same as if God said it, and that is based upon our belief in Divine unity, meaning that God and His Manifestation (Messenger) are one and the same, with regard to their Will..

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings, p. 167
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
I never said I have any evidence of the things you referred to above.
I said "I have evidence and I researched the evidence, and then I believed."
By "evidence" I meant the evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Once one believes that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, then they accept that everything He wrote is true, because we believe that He spoke as the Voice of God, and God is All-Knowing.

So we believe it is the same as if God said it, and that is based upon our belief in Divine unity, meaning that God and His Manifestation (Messenger) are one and the same, with regard to their Will..

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings, p. 167
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Thank you for confirming my post about what theists will believe even when presented with hard evidence they're wrong.

Ancient Soul said:
So then you blindly believe everything you are told, just like I always keep on telling you.
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I believe. He confirms it here.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
In 1957 Abdul-Bahá

Universal Peace will be firmly established, a Universal language promoted. Misunderstandings will pass away. The Baha’i Cause will be promulgated in all parts and the oneness of mankind established. It will be most glorious!

[J. E. Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, 1923 edition, Chapter XIV – Prophecies of Bahá’u’lláh and Abdul-Bahá]

These predictions by Abdul-Bahá were first published in 1923. He foretold that by the year 1957, the Bahá’í religion would spread everywhere and that there would be worldwide peace and unity among mankind. In actual fact, the decades leading up to the year 1957 and the decades since then have been among the most bloody in history. Social ills like poverty, racism, and crime still plague mankind and are only getting worse, nearly a century after Abdul-Bahá’s prediction.
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That quote above did not come from Baha’u’llah and the New Era. I know that because I went right to the online version of the text and did a search for "universal peace" and found out what Abdu'l-Baha actually wrote:

The Most Great Peace​

In all ages the Prophets of God have foretold the coming of an era of “peace on earth, goodwill among men.” As we have already seen Bahá’u’lláh, in the most glowing and confident terms, confirms these prophecies and declares that their fulfillment is at hand. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá says:—
… in this marvellous cycle, the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquility and beauty. Disputes, quarrels, and murders will be replaced by peace, truth, and concord; among the nations, peoples, races, and countries, love and amity will appear. Co-operation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. … Universal peace will raise its tent in the centre of the earth, and the Blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and calf—will act towards each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice, and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God.—Some Answered Questions, pp. 74–75.
Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 157-158

If you don't believe me, you can do the same search as I did from this link: Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era

When Abdu’l-Baha said “… in this marvellous cycle” he was referring to the present religious cycle we live in, which is to last no less than 500,000 years. There is no way of knowing when during this present cycle universal peace will be established.
PAUL MARKHAM said:
O my loving friends! After the passing away of this wronged one, it is incumbent upon the Aghsán (Branches), the Afnán (Twigs) of the Sacred Lote-Tree, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God and the loved ones of the Abhá Beauty to turn unto Shoghi Effendi… as he is the sign of God, the chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, he unto whom all the Aghsán, the Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God and His loved ones must turn. He is the expounder of the words of God and after him will succeed the firstborn of his lineal descendants.

[Abdul-Bahá, The Will and Testament, part one]

Shoghi Effendi did go on to lead the religion in 1921, just as Abdul-Bahá decreed. However, the situation changed dramatically in 1957, when Shoghi suddenly died at the age of sixty. Shoghi died childless, and so he had no descendants who could lead the religion.
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I was intended that there would be descendants but since there were none, and Shoghi Effendi died before he could appoint another Guardian, the Universal House of Justice (UHJ) was established, according to the express wishes of Baha'u'llah and that can be found in His Writings. Presently the UHJ is the leader of the religion, the highest governing body to whom we turn.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
Thank you for confirming my post about what theists will believe even when presented with hard evidence they're wrong.
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You do not have any hard evidence confirming that Baha'u'llah was wrong.
The lack of evidence that proves what He said is true is not evidence that what He said is false.

So for example, the fact that it cannot be proven that certain Prophets such as Adam, Noah, or Abraham existed does not prove that they did not exist.

The lack of proof that there is life on every planet does not mean there is not life on every planet.

It is an argument from ignorance to claim that a proposition is true unless you can prove it is true. I am not making a claim that anything is true; I am simply saying "I believe."

Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false.

Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
 
Ancient Soul

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Ancient Soul said:
So then you blindly believe everything you are told, just like I always keep on telling you.
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Trailblazer said:
No, I have evidence and I researched the evidence, and then I believed.
Nobody TOLD me to believe.
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Here we go again!

So you "research" your ‘Abdu’l-Bahá mythology by believing what you are told to believe by your Baha' cult leaders, I see no difference in that.

Now here's where you will probably come back with your word games of avoidance, but even if it's written down, it's the SAME as being "told" what to believe. Just like your blindly believing what they TOLD you this ‘Abdu’l-Bahá "foretold" everything currently happening in America. Yet when pressed to prove that the "foretelling" had ANYTHING to do with our CURRENT events and not any other time period, you could not, you just played your usual games of AVOIDANCE then ran off.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Some of the greatest minds of all time had faith in God.
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Okay, name a few and let's see what they believed about God.

CG Didymus said:
Believing in things with "no evidence" is what he said. Many a great mind has put in a lot of effort to give evidence that the Bible is literally true. How intelligent is that? They could have talked to any Baha'i who could have told them, "No, don't be an idiot. The Bible is not literally true. It is symbolically true."
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Smart people have believed the Bible to be literally true. Some of them have written books "proving" the Bible is true... like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. But if you read their books, you I bet would totally and completely disagree with them. Because you think you have the real truth.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
I see you get to choose and see what intelligence is.
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What kind of answer is that? Baha'is make "claims" or "statements" then wiggle out of backing those claims and statements. Usually with idiotic posts like this one.
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
You do not have any hard evidence confirming that Baha'u'llah was wrong.
The lack of evidence that proves what He said is true is not evidence that what He said is false.
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So that's a good reason for Baha'is to believe it is true? Again, the Bible, God wrote with his finger the 10 Commandments on a slab of granite. Just because we don't have that slab anymore doesn't mean it isn't true. But, you don't believe it is true do you.

Trailblazer said:
So for example, the fact that it cannot be proven that certain Prophets such as Adam, Noah, or Abraham existed does not prove that they did not exist.

The lack of proof that there is life on every planet does not mean there is not life on every planet.
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So why don't you believe the Bible version of the stories of these people? Hmmm? Could it be because it sounds like pure myth? But, because Baha'u'llah said they not only existed, but that they were "manifestations" of God too... That you believe. The "proof"? Because Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, so he should know?

Does any scientist believe there are living creatures on any other planet in our solar system? If they say "no" do you believe that they are wrong, because it contradicts what Baha'u'llah has said?
 
Ancient Soul

Ancient Soul

The Spiritual Universe
Trailblazer said:
I never said I have any evidence of the things you referred to above.
I said "I have evidence and I researched the evidence, and then I believed."
By "evidence" I meant the evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

Once one believes that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, then they accept that everything He wrote is true, because we believe that He spoke as the Voice of God, and God is All-Knowing.

So we believe it is the same as if God said it, and that is based upon our belief in Divine unity, meaning that God and His Manifestation (Messenger) are one and the same, with regard to their Will..

“The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings, p. 167
Click to expand...

And so THAT is your "proof", and everything from then on you blindly believe in???!!! He CLAIMED it came from "god"!!!

What the hey!!!!

So let's see your proof to back up his claim that it came from your "god".

I've brought this up before and as always you just ran off, but you previously stated that ANYONE who thinks God speaks to them are delusional, so why is your bombastic gobbledygook Baha'u'llah writings any other than that?

And going on past that lack of proof, how come you so blindly believe whatever the Baha'i cult leaders tell you it means, even though his writings say no such thing?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
What has become blatantly clear is theists losing their free will. Instead of asking "can this be true" they look to what their religion is telling them and follow whatever that says. Be it evolution, sex, morals, space, biblical, false prophecies, false prophets, history, science, family, etc.
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And those that do follow everything their prophet and religion says... what do we call them? Fanatics. Most are only "nominal? believers. And that goes for Baha'is too. Many of the Baha'is I knew were very much for peace and the unity of all people. Once we get into all the little requirements, then it gets to be a problem. Like women and their period having to say some words 95 times? Who does that? The Baha'i fast? After a few years of doing it, I wonder how many Baha'i start cheating or skipping altogether? Then there is sex. Like all young Baha'is are going to stay "pure" until married? Then beer and wine? They will never ever have an alcoholic drink the rest of their lives? When have religious laws really worked? And if they are "optional", between the person and God, and not enforced, then why keep doing them? Christians and Baha'is I've known couldn't and didn't follow all the laws.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
So that's a good reason for Baha'is to believe it is true? Again, the Bible, God wrote with his finger the 10 Commandments on a slab of granite. Just because we don't have that slab anymore doesn't mean it isn't true. But, you don't believe it is true do you.
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The lack of evidence that proves what He said is true is evidence that what He said is true.

You are correct in saying that just because we don't have that slab anymore that doesn't mean it isn't true.
I do not know if it is true or not.
CG Didymus said:
So why don't you believe the Bible version of the stories of these people? Hmmm? Could it be because it sounds like pure myth? But, because Baha'u'llah said they not only existed, but that they were "manifestations" of God too... That you believe. The "proof"? Because Baha'u'llah is a manifestation of God, so he should know?
Click to expand...

If the Bible version of the stories do not conflict with the Baha’i version then the Bible version could be true. Yes, Baha’u’llah would know because He had knowledge from the All-Knowing God, but I am not sure Baha’u’llah called them Manifestations of God; some of these men He referred to as Prophets. Moses is considered a universal Manifestation of God because He changed the general morals, promoted new customs and rules, and renewed the religious cycle and the Law. I cannot say what as Adam, Noah, or Abraham did unless Baha'u'llah or Abdu’l-Baha wrote about them, but there is no reason to think they did not do what it says they did in the Bible, with the exception of Adam literally dwelling with Eve in the Garden and eating that apple.
CG Didymus said:
Does any scientist believe there are living creatures on any other planet in our solar system? If they say "no" do you believe that they are wrong, because it contradicts what Baha'u'llah has said?
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If scientists knew for certain (because they had proof) that are no living creatures on any other planet in our solar system that would be cause for me to be concerned about what Baha'u'llah wrote, but the fact that scientists “do not believe” that there are any living creatures on any other planet in our solar system is not proof that there aren’t any.
 
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