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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Yes, but I question whether they ever came from God.
I also question that, but I do not concern myself with the answer to that question since "I do not believe" those laws are not pertinent to this age. Only if I was a Jew would I be concerned if they came from God or not. I suppose Baha'is vary in their opinions as to whether they came from God or not.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Edited to make it correct.
You do not speak for me, so you cannot edit my post to make it fit what YOU believe is correct about me.
How utterly arrogant, not that it matters to me because I know myself so I know what is correct.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.

The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Believing in things with no evidence is not a sign of intelligence.

Some of the greatest minds of all time had faith in God.

That kind of debunks that assertion you have made.

Interestingly, Abdu'lbaha who received very little schooling, with naught but Faith was able to engage all people and answe all the questions they put to him to their complete satisfaction and that was scientists included. He was able to draw on the power of mind that is available to all of us.

Here is a couple of thoughts of what Abdul'baha offerd on Intelligence

"The soul, like the intellect, is an abstraction. Intelligence does not partake of the quality of space, though it is related to man’s brain. The intellect resides there, but not materially. Search in the brain you will not find the intellect. In the same way though the soul is the resident of the body, it is not to be found in the body." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá

" There is, however, a faculty in man which unfolds to his vision the secrets of existence. It gives him a power whereby he may investigate the reality of every object. It leads man on and on to the luminous station of divine sublimity and frees him from all the fetters of self, causing him to ascend to the pure heaven of sanctity. This is the power of the mind, for the soul is not, of itself, capable of unrolling the mysteries of phenomena; but the mind can accomplish this and therefore it is a power superior to the soul." ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 121-122

When science does more research on Mind we will move forward in leaps and bounds.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
An atheist should base his answers on science. Which is usually based on evidence.

Proving or disproving the existence of a god needs you to tell us which god as there are so many different versions.

I see there is only One God, the creator.

Science has not set theory on creation at this time, but the big bang theory could have unfolded much like what is offered in the Tablet of the Universe by Abdul'baha.


Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And can we trust what the prophets have supposedly said in the Bible when even the Baha'i prophet disagrees with them. He says God used evolution making the Bible creation story a fictional myth. Yet, by faith, those conservative Christians keep believing what the Bible says.

The Bible story of creation does not exclude evolution, our understanding of what is written would be the issue. I Personaly do not need to unravel that story, as many aspects of it have been explained in later Revelations, in greater detail.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
From "The Law of God is Forever"
Exodus 31:16
Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

The Hebrew word translated as “perpetual” in Exodus 31:16 is the same Hebrew word translated as “everlasting” in Genesis 9:16 (referring to the flood) and Jeremiah 32:40 (referring to the New Covenant).

I have faith that God won’t abolish the new covenant because I know when God says, “everlasting covenant”, he means it. I don’t see how others can have the same faith.

Here are just a small percentage of scriptures that clearly state that the law is forever...​
Okay, he gives a list of verses here. Show me how the Jews misinterpreted them. By the way, it might be easier to see how Christians did it.
Thanks for the list of verses. The Jews are so lost, and maybe this explains why, but it is no excuse, not anymore than the Christians have an excuse for rejecting Muhammad and Baha'u'llah because this if in their scriptures:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


These scriptures were NEVER written to apply to FOREVER.

So the law stating that we should put adulterers and homosexuals to death is forever?
Get real.

God did make an everlasting covenant with man, but it is not the covenant the Jews believe was made solely with the Jews.

"Baha’is believe that there is an everlasting covenant which remains in force today.

The overall covenant God made with His followers in Judaism, known to Jews as the Mosaic Covenant, and to Christians as the Old Covenant, put forth the stipulation of the oneness of God – “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2) – as the primary law of the Ten Commandments. In exchange for following those principles, God promised that he would never leave His followers without guidance:

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid … for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. – Deuteronomy 31:6.

This eternal covenant between God and humanity, the Baha’i teachings say, remains in force today. The Creator has bestowed bounties on us all, and in return asks us to recognize His prophets and messengers and abide by their laws and spiritual principles. The Baha’i teachings joyously celebrate that covenant:"

How to Understand the Baha’i Covenant
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
TB told us the way god communicates with his messenger is something us mortals wouldn§t understand. That§s not true. Bahaullah does saz how it happened and in a simple way.

I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing.
[Bahá’u’lláh, Epistle, p. 11]

So why couldn't TB tell us he dreamed it? Then from this one dream, Bahaullah goes on to write 1400 tablets many of which are unachievable, vague, meaningless, political predictions which were obvious and untrue.

In 1957 Abdul-Bahá

Universal Peace will be firmly established, a Universal language promoted. Misunderstandings will pass away. The Baha’i Cause will be promulgated in all parts and the oneness of mankind established. It will be most glorious!

[J. E. Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, 1923 edition, Chapter XIV – Prophecies of Bahá’u’lláh and Abdul-Bahá]

These predictions by Abdul-Bahá were first published in 1923. He foretold that by the year 1957, the Bahá’í religion would spread everywhere and that there would be worldwide peace and unity among mankind. In actual fact, the decades leading up to the year 1957 and the decades since then have been among the most bloody in history. Social ills like poverty, racism, and crime still plague mankind and are only getting worse, nearly a century after Abdul-Bahá’s prediction.

O my loving friends! After the passing away of this wronged one, it is incumbent upon the Aghsán (Branches), the Afnán (Twigs) of the Sacred Lote-Tree, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God and the loved ones of the Abhá Beauty to turn unto Shoghi Effendi… as he is the sign of God, the chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, he unto whom all the Aghsán, the Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God and His loved ones must turn. He is the expounder of the words of God and after him will succeed the firstborn of his lineal descendants.

[Abdul-Bahá, The Will and Testament, part one]

Shoghi Effendi did go on to lead the religion in 1921, just as Abdul-Bahá decreed. However, the situation changed dramatically in 1957, when Shoghi suddenly died at the age of sixty. Shoghi died childless, and so he had no descendants who could lead the religion.
 
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PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Did Bahaullah call non Baha'is Donkeys?

Yes.

I'll start with the first quote:

“Say, Oh you donkey! Whatever God says is the truth and will not become void by the words of the polytheists (deniers of Baha’ism).” (Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i badi`, p. 174)

This is the translation of an authentic quote. You can double check by downloading the book where the Persian quote can be found here:

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/baha/A-F/B/badi/Kitab-i_Badi.pdf


This is also authentic:

“Protect yourself so that from the donkey enemies, those with large turbans do not turn you away from (Baha'ism)...” (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 83, p. 504)

The book can be downloaded from the official Baha'i website here:

http://reference.bahai.org/download/q2-fa-pdf.zip

The ******* quote:


“Whoever denies this apparent exalted luminous grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell,” Ishraq Khavari, Ma’idiy-i asimani, vol. 4, p. 355;

You don't even need to download a book for this. The original Arabic quote is available as an Image in the Baha'i library here:

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - مائده آسمانى - جلد ۴٬ صفحه ۳۵۵

I wish you well in your quest for finding the truth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then there are the times Bahaullah claimed he was god.

1. “There is no God but I the Honored , the Wise”.
– Kitab al Aqdas pg 43

2.”Accept whatever is commanded by Baha (himself) the Lord of Eternity”.
-kitab al aqdas pg 144

3.”All praise is for you O Bahaullah, the Creator of existence”.
-Al mubeen pg 34

4.”Obey the commands of your Elevated, Splendorous God, Bahaullah
-Al Mubeen pg 190

5.”You Most beneficent Lord, Bahaullah”,
Al Mubeen 297

The truth is revealed!. In all the above verses Bahaullah is clearly claiming divinity for himself here.
Did you verify this by checking your sources, or did you just gullibly believe it.

This is gross calumny. Baha'u'llah never said any of what you quoted. It comes from Muslims who are trying to discredit Baha'u'llah. I suggest you look at your sources before you post.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did Bahaullah call non Baha'is Donkeys?

Yes.

I'll start with the first quote:

“Say, Oh you donkey! Whatever God says is the truth and will not become void by the words of the polytheists (deniers of Baha’ism).” (Baha’u’llah, Kitab-i badi`, p. 174)

This is the translation of an authentic quote. You can double check by downloading the book where the Persian quote can be found here:

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/baha/A-F/B/badi/Kitab-i_Badi.pdf


This is also authentic:

“Protect yourself so that from the donkey enemies, those with large turbans do not turn you away from (Baha'ism)...” (Baha’u’llah, Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 2, no. 83, p. 504)

The book can be downloaded from the official Baha'i website here:

http://reference.bahai.org/download/q2-fa-pdf.zip

The ******* quote:


“Whoever denies this apparent exalted luminous grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell,” Ishraq Khavari, Ma’idiy-i asimani, vol. 4, p. 355;

You don't even need to download a book for this. The original Arabic quote is available as an Image in the Baha'i library here:

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - مائده آسمانى - جلد ۴٬ صفحه ۳۵۵

I wish you well in your quest for finding the truth.
You are really naive and illogical if you actually BELIEVE that what the enemies of the Baha'i Faith (Muslims) post about the Baha'i Faith is true. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Because Muslims know Persian and Arabic, they deliberately translate the Writings of Baha'u'llah in order to misrepresent what He actually wrote, knowing many naive readers who only know English will believe their calumny.

I could not care less what you post on this forum. Any person of discernment would see that it is false.

But have fun in your quest for truth. :D
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did Bahaullah call non Baha'is Donkeys?

Yes.
Talk about me not doing my research. :rolleyes:
I cannot believe how gullible you are to believe that trash.

Did Bahá'u'lláh really call his deniers donkeys, pigs, and ********?

Scott Hakala

, Ph.D Econ, Baha'i, interest in morals and religion

Answered November 25, 2018 · Author has 2.8K answers and 758.9K answer views

Generally, no. Those terms were only used in specific context of persons actively persecuting the Faith and opposing it. This is another question designed to inflame and misrepresent by taking passages out of context and to promote anti-Baha’i materials that misrepresent the Faith.

In reality, Baha’u’llah told Baha’is to love all and be tolerant.

“Cleanse ye your eyes, so that ye behold no man as different from yourselves. See ye no strangers; rather see all men as friends, for love and unity come hard when ye fix your gaze on otherness. And in this new and wondrous age, the Holy Writings say that we must be at one with every people; that we must see neither harshness nor injustice, neither malevolence, nor hostility, nor hate, but rather turn our eyes toward the heaven of ancient glory. For each of the creatures is a sign of God, and it was by the grace of the Lord and His power that each did step into the world; therefore they are not strangers, but in the family; not aliens, but friends, and to be treated as such. Wherefore must the loved ones of God associate in affectionate fellowship with stranger and friend alike, showing forth to all the utmost loving-kindness, disregarding the degree of their capacity, never asking whether they deserve to be loved. In every instance let the friends be considerate and infinitely kind. Let them never be defeated by the malice of the people, by their aggression and their hate, no matter how intense. If others hurl their darts against you, offer them milk and honey in return; if they poison your lives, sweeten their souls; if they injure you, teach them how to be comforted; if they inflict a wound upon you, be a balm to their sores; if they sting you, hold to their lips a refreshing cup.
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Selections from the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 24)

Sláinte

, I own books on religion and enjoy thinking about it.

Updated September 10, 2016

I asked a theologian who reads Arabic and Persian to answer this question. He responded via email. This is an excerpt from our correspondence, shared with his permission. All credit goes to Sen McGlinn:

"The quotes are accurate, but without context, and the translation and
interpretation shows a lack of understanding of literature. The bane
of religion in the 19th century and until today was that it fell into
the hands of engineers and the like whose own use of language lacks
literary flourishes, metaphors, rhyme, quotes from poetry and
sayings, etc.. When they read religious literature the result is like
the ballet of the hippopotami. Oh dear, I called our author a
hippopotamus! Scandal!

In this page, the writer's objection is to animal metaphors. The
first one is "O you donkeys" (plural not singular as in the website's
translation), which Baha'u'llah inserts as a quote in Arabic although
the text is in Persian. The reason, I think, is that this is a saying
which plays on the rhyme between Amir (leader) and hamir (donkeys).
Baha'u'llah could have used the Persian khar, plural kharha, meaning
a donkey/fool. Instead he switches to an Arabic expression, which is
less derogatory and has the connotation of looking like a leader but
being a bumbler. A literary reading notes such things: quotes,
allusions, rhymes, metaphors. To these, your engineer is as deaf as
an adder. As deaf as a shad.

The quote from Baha'u'llah continues "truth is what Truth may tell,
tho' the errant may say it's an error." The Persian original has a
couple of word-plays that are lost in the web-site's translation.

There is one striking simile used by Abdu'l-Baha, which does employ
the Persian word khar. It's in the Persian edition of selections from
the writings of Abdu'l-Baha, vol 2 p 77

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - منتخباتى از مكاتيب حضرت عبدالبهاء - جلد ۲٬ صفحه ۷۷

where he compares people who waste their lives on splitting hairs to
a donkey turning a mill (pumping water or grinding grain): it goes
round and round and gets nowhere.

Wem die Jacke passt, der soll sie sich dat anziehen.

~Sen"

Denis MacEoin

, Author of several academic studies of Babi and Baha'i faiths. Former Baha'i.

Answered October 8, 2016

What the commentators here are missing is reference to the fact that many Baha’i attitudes comie directly from Islamic originals. The Qur’an, for instance, refers to Jews as ‘the sons of apes and pigs’. Today, Muslim sermons, books etc. use this and other metaphotres to describe Jews. And you only have to read the Qur’an and ahadith to find ample references to unbelievers (kuffar) as hateful, ignorant, destined for hell and so on. Baha’ism may appear more tolerant than Islam (and in many ways it is), but there persists a string Islamic level that involves a clear distinction between those who have seen the Truth and those who have denied it. At the same time, Baha’ Allah does not divide the world sharply between something like Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb (which the Bab most certainly did), so there is none of that antagonism. But from a secularist point of view, religious believers who believe they are the sole modern possessors of the truth and that the rest of the world is in denial and ignorance are still given to an arrogance that destroys good social relations.

https://www.quora.com/Did-Baháulláh-really-call-his-deniers-donkeys-pigs-and-********
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Believing in things with no evidence is not a sign of intelligence.

Some of the greatest minds of all time had faith in God.
Believing in things with "no evidence" is what he said. Many a great mind has put in a lot of effort to give evidence that the Bible is literally true. How intelligent is that? They could have talked to any Baha'i who could have told them, "No, don't be an idiot. The Bible is not literally true. It is symbolically true."
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Bible story of creation does not exclude evolution, our understanding of what is written would be the issue. I Personally do not need to unravel that story, as many aspects of it have been explained in later Revelations, in greater detail.

Regards Tony
As if it matters to you and me. We don't take it literally. Unfortunately, there is a problem, perhaps a flaw. Somebody wrote those words down and made them out to be The Truth from The God. How much grief did that cause for Charles Darwin, and it still goes on today for evolutionary scientists. Those words in the Bible, because it is assumed to be the literal truth have power. Did God, an angel or a manifestation say those words? Some say that they came from Moses with the assumption that he got them from God.

My assumption is that, because there were other creation myths in other cultures, it is only the people in that culture making these things up. But, for those people, they were meant to be taken literally true, not symbolically.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Believing in things with "no evidence" is what he said. Many a great mind has put in a lot of effort to give evidence that the Bible is literally true. How intelligent is that? They could have talked to any Baha'i who could have told them, "No, don't be an idiot. The Bible is not literally true. It is symbolically true."

I see you get to choose and see what intelligence is.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As if it matters to you and me. We don't take it literally. Unfortunately, there is a problem, perhaps a flaw. Somebody wrote those words down and made them out to be The Truth from The God. How much grief did that cause for Charles Darwin, and it still goes on today for evolutionary scientists. Those words in the Bible, because it is assumed to be the literal truth have power. Did God, an angel or a manifestation say those words? Some say that they came from Moses with the assumption that he got them from God.

My assumption is that, because there were other creation myths in other cultures, it is only the people in that culture making these things up. But, for those people, they were meant to be taken literally true, not symbolically.

I see Jesus offered that there some things that were plain and some was in Metaphor. So did Muhammad and Baha'u'llah has said He now speaks plainly on some subjects.

How we came into being appeared not to be important in His age, as Jesus offered little on the creation Story.

Muhammad reintroduced it into Faith and now given we are in the age of science and knowledge, Baha'u'llah has offerd copious amounts to consider.

Why worry about the Bible rendition when it has now been explained to suit our modern day mind?

Regards Tony
 
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