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A Crack in the Torah: Addendum.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Where is this impossible situation you speak of? Deuteronomy 11:13-17 was not a bit ambiguous.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 lays out the promise that if Israel obeys the covenant they will be greatly blessed and protected, they will be the cream of the crop so far as all nations are concerned. They will be rich, secure, and revered. But, according to the promise in Deuteronomy 28, if they break the covenant, they will be cursed unmercifully.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 presents the covenant blessings and curses as a choice Israel gets to make. It's based on their volition. It's written into the writ of the covenant (i.e., Deuteronomy chapter 28), that the choice is Israel's to make.

Jump ahead in the writ of the covenant to Deuteronomy 31:15-30. The alleged choice Israel is given in Deuteronomy 28 is taken away in Deuteronomy 31:15-30. They're told, Israel is told, promised mind you, by god no less, that they will break the covenant. It's no longer in their hands. It's no longer a choice they have. Since the god doing the writing writes that they fail right into the very writ of the covenant.

Say a father has a son whom he tells since he is a toddler that he's a worthless sob. "You will never amount to anything. . . . You're a bad seed. You're a sob (Deut. 32:5).". . Say he even writes the son out of his will and says in the will to give his possessions to anyone but his sob. I contend that that's going to have an impact on what the son is, becomes, and does.

That's the written law in spades. Read Deuteronomy chapter 31 and 32 and realize that Israel has been reading this, from their father, for thousands of years. He has so tormented and distorted all truth, by promising them a choice and then telling them what their choice will be, ahead of time, before they even make it, that there's no way under heaven they can be culpable for anything they do under divine duress. They're under supernatural duress.

That they have endured this evil as well as they have, and not that they have been true to the covenant (which they have), the covenant that said they would break the covenant, which they did (on a skull-like outcropping of rocks where they muzzled the spirit of the covenant), is, far from a legal case against them, on the contrary, a witness against their father, the god/author of the rotten written writ.

That those who proclaim themselves the inheritors of the covenant can read what has happened to Israel, the crime they've endure, and rub salt in their wounds, and take over the the covenant for themselves, as though they will fair any better than Israel, well, my dear, that is almost beyond belief.



John
 
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Thank you for writing that out John. Historians don't seem to think that latter part which predicts their failure was actually written until after they had failed (but Historians these days are often not thinking like believers). God seems to give little real choice to practically anyone, see how the Pharaoh's heart is hardened for example. The Bible seems to, at times, give the impression that God is writing and controlling all the events of the story of our experiences and reality and that free-will is really only an impression, that our deeds are really God's story that God wrote for us (even before we existed, it seems implied or outright stated in some verses that people use to represent that idea), so if you're going to be a criminal, God basically wrote that story for you, which amounts to just rotten luck and a disturbing author with creative freedom.

So lets say, God is evil and unjust and even cruel (like the abusive sort of Father you described, and in this case, not even a biological Father, right? Not even really an adopted Father, but just some being sending hate-mail and calling itself your God and Father or Master or whatever). What can be done about this (if such were the case)? I can't seem to figure out what anyone would be able to do about this. God is writing your story, or claiming to, and if such is really the case, you (and the rest of us) are left entirely helpless before God, and (if God writes it) all we can do is find ourselves begging God not to make our experience or story that God writes a bad one (which God can ignore and make into a bad one anyway, and has no one to answer to, like what is mentioned in the episodes pertaining to Job).

Lamentations 3:37-3:38
God's Justice
37Who has spoken and it came to pass, unless the Lord has ordained it? 38Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Deuteronomy chapter 28 lays out the promise that if Israel obeys the covenant they will be greatly blessed and protected, they will be the cream of the crop so far as all nations are concerned. They will be rich, secure, and revered. But, according to the promise in Deuteronomy 28, if they break the covenant, they will be cursed unmercifully.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 presents the covenant blessings and curses as a choice Israel gets to make. It's based on their volition. It's written into the writ of the covenant (i.e., Deuteronomy chapter 28), that the choice is Israel's to make.

Jump ahead in the writ of the covenant to Deuteronomy 31:15-30. The alleged choice Israel is given in Deuteronomy 28 is taken away in Deuteronomy 31:15-30. They're told, Israel is told, promised mind you, by god no less, that they will break the covenant. It's no longer in their hands. It's no longer a choice they have. Since the god doing the writing writes that they fail right into the very writ of the covenant.

Say a father has a son whom he tells since he is a toddler that he's a worthless sob. "You will never amount to anything. . . . You're a bad seed. You're a sob (Deut. 32:5).". . Say he even writes the son out of his will and says in the will to give his possessions to anyone but his sob. I contend that that's going to have an impact on what the son is, becomes, and does.

That's the written law in spades. Read Deuteronomy chapter 31 and 32 and realize that Israel has been reading this, from their father, for thousands of years. He has so tormented and distorted all truth, by promising them a choice and then telling them what their choice will be, ahead of time, before they even make it, that there's no way under heaven they can be culpable for anything they do under divine duress. They're under supernatural duress.

That they have endured this evil as well as they have, and not that they have been true to the covenant (which they have), the covenant that said they would break the covenant, which they did (on a skull-like outcropping of rocks where they muzzled the spirit of the covenant), is, far from a legal case against them, on the contrary, a witness against their father, the god/author of the rotten written writ.

That those who proclaim themselves the inheritors of the covenant can read what has happened to Israel, the crime they've endure, and rub salt in their wounds, and take over the the covenant for themselves, as though they will fair any better than Israel, well, my dear, that is almost beyond belief.



John
Personally, as I read your post, I find it overly pessimistic with an overlaying liberty of interpreting it in that manner. G-d was speaking in generalities for there was and will always be a remnant and an ebb an flow to following God.

The end of the matter is 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Notice that the finality was mercy and not judgment. Just because He knew of the time when His people would go back to false gods doesn't translate into a "forever" position nor does it translate into "all forsook Him". Note that he said "rejoice" and not "take on sackcloth and ashes" - because there is always a return to G-d. And since it is "nations" with "his people" -- I rejoice with them and for them. IMO
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
the gnostics never depicted the demiurgus in a positive light...... just another twisted hermaphroditic trickster g-d predating upon people....a nice snack bar for the ants, and humans, the aphids who seem to delight in lining up to self-harvest.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Jesus who was God on earth said the following to the Jews.


Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

No wonder they rejected Jesus. (Jn 14:6)

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Deuteronomy chapter 28 lays out the promise that if Israel obeys the covenant they will be greatly blessed and protected, they will be the cream of the crop so far as all nations are concerned. They will be rich, secure, and revered. But, according to the promise in Deuteronomy 28, if they break the covenant, they will be cursed unmercifully.

Deuteronomy chapter 28 presents the covenant blessings and curses as a choice Israel gets to make. It's based on their volition. It's written into the writ of the covenant (i.e., Deuteronomy chapter 28), that the choice is Israel's to make.

Why did God choose Israel as his people? Was it because they were better than any other people? Were they somehow less prone to sin than others? More righteous in their inclinations than anyone else? Were there any other people in the world that God could have chosen to carry out his purpose more efficiently? If so....who?

God had to bring his Messiah into the world as a human, and he had to give his appearance strict criteria so that he would have to fulfill the many aspects of that criteria to even qualify to present himself as God's "anointed one". An important part of that criteria was his covenant with Abraham to have the 'seed' come through his family lineage. Abraham was blessed to be the progenitor of the Messiah's seed. Who knew what his family would be like? Did Abraham? He died feeling blessed and he looked forward to his reward and the future blessings of Messiah's coming Kingdom. (Hebrews 11:8-10)

When his descendants found themselves in Egypt, brought there by a famine and finding Joseph there as Prime Minister (sent ahead of them) to care for their needs, here was proof that God was guiding and protecting his chosen ones for the role that they would play in the future......but after their spectacular release from slavery, including the parting of the Red Sea, after a short time, they fell away to false worship. (the golden calf) and incurred God's anger. Was Israel doomed to failure? What did God tell them?

Deuteronomy 30:19-20....
"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

Free willed people have choices......and God told them what their choices were. Obey and live....or disobey and die....wasn't that the same prospect he held out to Adam and Eve? Obedience is all he has ever asked of his children...both human and angelic..
What did they choose of their own volition? Why are you making excuses for them?

Jump ahead in the writ of the covenant to Deuteronomy 31:15-30. The alleged choice Israel is given in Deuteronomy 28 is taken away in Deuteronomy 31:15-30. They're told, Israel is told, promised mind you, by god no less, that they will break the covenant. It's no longer in their hands. It's no longer a choice they have. Since the god doing the writing writes that they fail right into the very writ of the covenant.

You seem to forget God's Omniscience.....he is not condemning them to failure, but simply foretelling their future as he sees that it will surely take place. It was what was going to happen....prophetic and spot on.

How many of the original Hebrew 'slaves' got to enter their Promised Land? Only Joshua and Caleb....so a new generation went into their new homeland with instructions....would they now obey them? Did they have choices? Did they have control over their own actions? Do we?
You need to put the blame where it lies.

Say a father has a son whom he tells since he is a toddler that he's a worthless sob. "You will never amount to anything. . . . You're a bad seed. You're a sob (Deut. 32:5).". . Say he even writes the son out of his will and says in the will to give his possessions to anyone but his sob. I contend that that's going to have an impact on what the son is, becomes, and does.

What God wrote was prophesy, not condemnation.....you seem to have the same sort of whining attitude as the Jews in this issue. You want to excuse them? On what basis? Did you think that they had no choices? Or can you understand that this "stiff necked" people were not going to comply with the laws that God put in place to guide them. How many of those laws were even difficult? Please tell me.

That's the written law in spades. Read Deuteronomy chapter 31 and 32 and realize that Israel has been reading this, from their father, for thousands of years. He has so tormented and distorted all truth, by promising them a choice and then telling them what their choice will be, ahead of time, before they even make it, that there's no way under heaven they can be culpable for anything they do under divine duress. They're under supernatural duress.
How distorted your reasoning is. Divine duress? Are you serious?

What were Moses' parting words to the people?
Deuteronomy 31:24-29....
"As soon as Moses had completed writing the words of this Law in a book in their entirety, 25 Moses commanded the Levites who carry the ark of Jehovah’s covenant, saying: 26 Take this book of the Law and place it at the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, and it will serve as a witness there against you. 27 For I myself well know your rebelliousness and your stubbornness. If you have been so rebellious against Jehovah while I am still alive with you, then how much more so will you be after my death! 28 Gather together to me all the elders of your tribes and your officers, and let me speak these words in their hearing, and let me take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against them. 29 For I well know that after my death you will surely act wickedly and turn aside from the way about which I have commanded you. And calamity will certainly befall you at the close of the days, because you will do what is bad in the eyes of Jehovah and you will offend him by the works of your hands.”

Was Moses anti-Semitic? or did Moses know his people well after taking care of them for all their years of wandering in the wilderness (which itself was a punishment for their disobedience?) Do you have a handle on what kind of people they were? Just read the scriptures and see what God and Moses had to put up with! This was a statement of fact and a clear indication of their wayward inclinations...even in successive generations. But Messiah was to come through that nation and nothing was going to prevent it.

You feel sorry for them? Why?.....if God and Moses didn't? Again...boo hoo. They had choices and they chose badly, again and again. They reaped what they had sown.They deserved what they got.

That they have endured this evil as well as they have, and not that they have been true to the covenant (which they have), the covenant that said they would break the covenant, which they did (on a skull-like outcropping of rocks where they muzzled the spirit of the covenant), is, far from a legal case against them, on the contrary, a witness against their father, the god/author of the rotten written writ.

If you condemn God for his rightful judgment against these rebellious people....then be prepared for the same judgment yourself. How can you treat God with such disrespect?.....you side with the disobedient complainers? I am sorry for you.

That those who proclaim themselves the inheritors of the covenant can read what has happened to Israel, the crime they've endure, and rub salt in their wounds, and take over the the covenant for themselves, as though they will fair any better than Israel, well, my dear, that is almost beyond belief.

Your own stance, if you are a serious student of God's word, is to me...beyond belief....much like the conduct of those you are trying to excuse. God does not accept excuses....but you knew that right? I am left SMH o_O
 
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MNoBody

Well-Known Member
He does however make a really good point, which only comes from grinding meaning out of all those bamboozling words that people never comprehend.
T096pyL.jpg
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
1226nswbible14122215h30.jpg
HolyNonsense.png
for a singular message it sure has been presented in a huge variety of ways, thus...all of it, in its entirety would be the words that have folks bamboozled
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
for a singular message it sure has been presented in a huge variety of ways, thus...all of it, in its entirety would be the words that have folks bamboozled

Its not really bamboozling at all to me.....anything specific?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So lets say, God is evil and unjust and even cruel (like the abusive sort of Father you described, and in this case, not even a biological Father, right? Not even really an adopted Father, but just some being sending hate-mail and calling itself your God and Father or Master or whatever). What can be done about this (if such were the case)? I can't seem to figure out what anyone would be able to do about this. God is writing your story, or claiming to, and if such is really the case, you (and the rest of us) are left entirely helpless before God, and (if God writes it) all we can do is find ourselves begging God not to make our experience or story that God writes a bad one (which God can ignore and make into a bad one anyway, and has no one to answer to, like what is mentioned in the episodes pertaining to Job).

Jewish kabbalah, in its sensitivity to these things, works within a schematic that sees a god of justice/judgment (gevurah) juxtaposed against a God of grace and mercy (hesed). The kabbalistic sages attempt to work through the paradox you note rather than throw up their hands in surrender or, like a more orthodox Judaism, just accept their fate and keep on doing what they're told.

Which is perhaps where Jesus comes into the picture offering a solution to the "curse of the law," the crack in the Torah, since part and parcel of the dilemma in the Tanakh is the duality between a righteous God who can have nothing to do with sin, suffering, death, so that he splits into two with one of his polarities being the protector, the judge, jury, and executioner, of all who would threaten his other pole stationed way out there in utter and perfect righteousness.

Jesus claims to unify the polarity in a new hypostasis whereby the righteousness of God can get down and dirty with the sinners his creation makes necessary (since God would not have allowed sin if it weren't a necessary predicate of creation itself). In the new hypostasis, God can feel the pain of temptation, sin, disease, death, right along side his creation.

This new hypostasis is extremely problematic for the theology that's thought to have preceded it since there's a sense in which it would have to be antecedent and not secondary to what's understood to be the arrow of time and direction in the Tanakh. This problem of theological assyemmety versus symmetry is part and parcel of Saul of Tarsus talk of a "mystery" hidden from the very casting down of the world: the origin is hidden in the beginning. The origin doesn't appear to be original.

The revelation of Jesus Christ is the revealing of the origin, hidden in the Tanakh, which
(the Tanakh) began before the birth of Christ, even though Christ was hidden in every word and every narrative of the Tanakh, since his birth is the origin of the Tanakh hidden inside the womb of the Tanakh.

In Jewish parlance, Christ is the shetiya stone, the stone of foundation, the ovum of foundation, around which the mother, the temple, and the world, emanated. He was originally intended to be the firstborn of creation (and in a real sense he still is) such that he would be the groom of his mother who is his bride.

This is to say that Jesus Christ is the husband of Israel. They emanated from him. Even though they gave birth to him. But because of the problematic asymmetry of the situation, Israel naturally rejected her husband, having perhaps already chosen another because of his prolonged stillbirth. But he was still born. And his delayed birth, properly understood, will make amends, will correct what's broken, in his good time.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Personally, as I read your post, I find it overly pessimistic with an overlaying liberty of interpreting it in that manner. G-d was speaking in generalities for there was and will always be a remnant and an ebb an flow to following God.

The end of the matter is 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Notice that the finality was mercy and not judgment. Just because He knew of the time when His people would go back to false gods doesn't translate into a "forever" position nor does it translate into "all forsook Him". Note that he said "rejoice" and not "take on sackcloth and ashes" - because there is always a return to G-d. And since it is "nations" with "his people" -- I rejoice with them and for them. IMO

Your statement is chok-a-bloc full of important nuances each of which is a thread in itself. For instance, what you're calling my liberty of interpreting (implying I'm a libertine <s> . . . hell I probably am) requires an understanding, and perhaps a rule, for how strong the fence defending orthodox understanding should be to deal with the threat of truths and falsehoods that haven't yet been vetted by the orthodox understanding?

As Gershom Scholem stated it (and he noted St. Paul as the glaring example), it's the most ardent, staunch, defender of orthodoxy, who inevitably becomes its primary enemy, when it becomes apparent that the fence constructed around orthodoxy has become so strong that it denies re-entry by the shepherd who left to save some sheep out of his own pen. The very one who builds, or helps construct the fence of orthodoxy, is locked out by it if he but leaves to defend the flock from an attacking bear who might be able to destroy the fence, or else leaves the fold to rescue one of their own.

Btw, the psychologist/philosopher Jordan Peterson is very good at explaining this paradox.

The other interesting nuance in your statement is the relationship between "generalized" statements from God, versus absolute statements from God. In the problem pointed out in the thread seeder, God doesn't generalize with Israel. There's an absolutely broken statement in the text of the Torah, a crime, a sin, written into the very text of the Law (Torah), which is the "curse" of the Law spoken of in the Gospels and Apostolic writings.

In a generalized sense, God could indeed split in two so that his righteousness has a protector in his judge, jury, and executioner (the god of the OT). But, and this is obviously a thread in itself, that judge, as mediator, must, in the words of Saul of Tarsus himself, be both God and the entity he's mediating for. Which is to say that the OT god must be some form of incarnation between "creature" and "creator."

That being the case, the angelic mediator, in the OT, can speak in generalities, like you and I, but cannot make absolute statements as though he is the God he is only guarding in his incarnate essence. Which is where the crime comes in. This incarnate guardian of God's untouchable righteousness makes absolute statements in Deuteronomy that transgress the relationship between an incarnate manifestation of God, a guardian of God, versus the absolute righteousness of God.

When the guardian of God tells Israel what they will do before they do it (and does so in an absolute way), because he is speaking for God, he leaves Israel no volition or option, which is a crime, and a sin, even if God's servant/guardian/angel is guilty of the crime and the sin:

And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:1.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:8.​



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Why did God choose Israel as his people? Was it because they were better than any other people? Were they somehow less prone to sin than others? More righteous in their inclinations than anyone else? Were there any other people in the world that God could have chosen to carry out his purpose more efficiently? If so....who?

There's a thread that connects God's purpose in human history down through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, etc., etc.. God chooses these men, and all those whom he chooses, for his own purposes, according to the councils of his own will.

The nation of Israel is like that. All that we know of God, Christ, comes, fundamentally, through Israel, Judaism, and Jews. Even to this day I find in my personal studies that, at least in my opinion, a Christian can only delve so deep into the written word of God without the help of Jewish sages. Which means, from my vantage point, that any Christian who has a wrong-headed understanding of Israel, Judaism, or Jews, is limited in how God can use him or her to proclaim his word.

This doesn't mean Jews, and Jewish scripture, are the end all or be all . . . far from it . . . they're layered with error, false interpretation, much of it purposeful. But they're still the guardians of the written word. They're still the experts, by far, in the written word. And no Christian is going to get too close to the Tree of Life without getting the keys, one way or another, from Israel, Judaism, and the Jews.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
God had to bring his Messiah into the world as a human, and he had to give his appearance strict criteria so that he would have to fulfill the many aspects of that criteria to even qualify to present himself as God's "anointed one". An important part of that criteria was his covenant with Abraham to have the 'seed' come through his family lineage. Abraham was blessed to be the progenitor of the Messiah's seed. Who knew what his family would be like? Did Abraham? He died feeling blessed and he looked forward to his reward and the future blessings of Messiah's coming Kingdom. (Hebrews 11:8-10)

The strict appearance you note is part and parcel of the hidden-ness of God’s “anointer.” And to see the truth of God’s anointer requires the ability and willingness to unite pagan symbols, Jewish symbol, and Christian symbols, in a more perfect union. And that can’t and won’t occur where religious cliques form orthodoxies designed to make Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Catholics, or Jews, the “chosen ones,” apart from, and without, their bosom brothers and sisters.

Case in point. “Messiah” isn’t the “anointed one,” but the one who anoints. And you can’t know that without knowing Judaism 101 and to some extent pagan precedents, since the word “anoint” comes first from pagan precedent, and is then transformed in Judaism to speak of “Messiah” (a Hebrew word associated with “anointing”).

First to the pagan precedent (that preseeded Judaism).

In the ancient phallic-cults, the tribal god always fathered a bride’s firstborn son through jus primae noctis. He got first dibs. Only then were her subsequent offspring conceived through the intercourse between her and her human groom. In the pagan rituals, the bride went to the temple as a wedding ritual. She entered the most holy place where a phallic organ existed in the “bedchamber” of the temple (made of wood, metal, or stone). It was lubricated with holy oil (semen שמן) so she could deflower herself on the salubrious divine organ signifying that her firstborn son would be a priest, a son, of the tribal deity.

In Hebrew, the same word can be used for “hand” and “phallus” (yad יד) so that for a woman’s womb to be sanctified by god, or God, it must, in every case, even in the pagan religions, have the veil to her temple opened by the yad of God. Any woman whose virginity isn’t broken by the yad of God is a prostitute or whore, unfaithful, to God and her husband. She births only Nephilim, the fallen. In the ancient phallic cults, the flower of virginity was always, typologically at least, ritually, opened by god. Only by this sanctified opening of the veil of the biological temple (by the yad of god) was the womb properly christened such that everything that comes out of it from henceforth is sanctified.

Now to Judaism.

In Exodus 13:2 god says, sanctify unto me all who open a closed womb; they are mine. Which is to say Judaism follows the prototype of the phallic cults. And in fact, to this very day, Jews and Judaism ritualize the jus primae noctis of god by the ritual of pidyon haben, whereby the parents of the firstborn Jewish male purchase him out of his servitude to god’s priesthood. To this very day Jews practice rituals (pidyon haben) that center around the idea of the jus primae noctis of the tribal deity.

But Judaism is different. And as Professor Nahum Sarna stated the case, you must know the pre-Jewish rituals to have a background with which to interpret the Jewish rituals, which, the Jewish rituals, don’t come wholesale from a whole-cloth, but are innovations on the universal type.

Case in point. Whereas the pagans “anoint” the phallus of the deity in the holy place of the temple, so that the tribal god’s firstborn is the “anointed” son of the mother (and the “anointed” son of the first mother is the tribal messiah), in ancient Judaism the bridegroom is circumcised symbolizing a non-phallic conception rather than a conception conceived by a different phallus, the phallus of the tribal deity.

In the Jewish ritual, the yad of God is already in the temple, the womb, so that rather than the yad of God opening the veil from the outside in, as in the pagan ritual, the yad of God opens the veil from the inside out, virgin birth; and does so not at the point of conception, ala the pagans divine yad in the bedchamber of the temple, but by the hand of God, the nails in the hand of God, at birth. For this reason, we can know that the Jewish divine son is not an “anointed one,” whose conception is from the anointing oil שמן used to make the divine phallus salubrious, but rather, the Jewish divine son is the “anointer.” He will anoint all of his offspring not with oil, or semen שמן but with blood. He will father his offspring not through the pagan process, phallic sex, but through the true Jewish process, the blood of sacrifice.

Someone will suppose this is all just hyperbole, or imaginative twisting of the truth of scripture. But they will be wrong since if they knew anything about the scripture, Judaism, Hebrew, and the foundation of the Gospels and the Apostolic writings, they would know that by Jewish law, the law of the Torah, the would-be king is never “anointed,” unless he doesn’t inherit his crown, title, and authority, from his father as the firstborn. David was anointed because he wasn’t the firstborn. But Messiah is the firstborn. He can’t be the “anointed one” since the firstborn who inherits the title isn’t anointed. Messiah is neither anointed, nor can he be anointed, since he's God’s firstborn son who inherits his title through his firstborn status, a status that's never, by law, through anointing.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Free willed people have choices......and God told them what their choices were.

. . . That's not freewill. And its demonic when god tells you what your choice will be, and that he's gonna make you pay dearly, through grotesque suffering (eating the fruit of your own womb) for whatever choice you make. If you make the choice he says you're going to make, to break his law, your gonna pay. And if you chose the worse case scenario, i.e., to make him a liar, you refuse to break the covenant like he says you will, he gonna annihilate you and wipe you out of the scripture itself.

A careful reading of scripture shows that that's the choice Israel has been living with for thousands of years. That they're still here lets you know which choice they made. Which is probably the same choice you and I would make.



John
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There's a thread that connects God's purpose in human history down through Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, etc., etc.. God chooses these men, and all those whom he chooses, for his own purposes, according to the councils of his own will.

No argument with that. All were used to accomplish God’s purpose in one way or another. All had something to teach us by example....even examples of what not to do. Everything in the Bible is there for a reason.

The nation of Israel is like that. All that we know of God, Christ, comes, fundamentally, through Israel, Judaism, and Jews.

But why? That is the question. Given their track record.....why them? And why forgive them for their repeated transgressions when there was no basis, except the blood of animals to atone for them temporarily?

What happened when Christ came to fulfill the law? His blood was the atonement for all, yet only for those who accepted his blood under the terms of the new covenant. Don't you see that after Christ died and the first Christians gradually moved away from Judaism, then the gentiles began to be added. For Jews, this was unthinkable.....they were God's people protected by his covenant. God would never abandon them. Where did that attitude get them?
At Jesus' trial before Pilate, the Jews exclaimed that they "had no king but Caesar".

Time soon proved that this pretended solid fidelity to Caesar was false. Fanatical elements in Israel fomented one revolt after another, and each time the province suffered harsh Roman reprisals that, in turn, increased the Jewish hatred of Roman rule. The situation finally became so explosive that the local Roman forces were no longer able to contain it and Cestius Gallus, governor of Syria, moved against Jerusalem with stronger forces to maintain Roman control.

In 66CE the Romans then laid siege to Jerusalem, but Josephus reported that Cestius Gallus withdrew his troops unexpectedly. This attack on the city, followed by the sudden withdrawal, furnished the signal and the opportunity for the Christians there to ‘flee to the mountains’ as instructed by Jesus.

On the death of Emperor Nero, Vespasian became Emperor and in 70CE, his son Titus completed what Gallus had started four years earlier....the city was besieged and Josephus says that during the whole campaign against Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews died, many from pestilence and famine, and 97,000 were taken captive, he says, many being scattered as slaves to all quarters of the empire. (The Jewish War, VI, 420 (ix, 3).

The Christians had fled the city and were safe in the mountains, so where was the God of Israel and why had he provided no protection for them? Why was their Temple destroyed, and for the next two thousand years, has it never been rebuilt?
Since the law required blood sacrifices to atone for their sin, why have the Jews never been instructed by God to rebuild their temple as the place to offer those sacrifices, as he had done in the past? Surely some Jews must wonder if they somehow missed the boat? What excuses can they offer for failing to fulfill the sacrificial laws? No Temple? Why is there no Temple?
How is forgiveness obtained, and where is the law that states that this is no longer necessary?
Why did it all change after Jesus died? Is there a picture emerging here?

Even to this day I find in my personal studies that, at least in my opinion, a Christian can only delve so deep into the written word of God without the help of Jewish sages. Which means, from my vantage point, that any Christian who has a wrong-headed understanding of Israel, Judaism, or Jews, is limited in how God can use him or her to proclaim his word.

And from my perspective, anyone who has a "wrong headed understanding" of the failure of Israel to live up to their agreement with God, has failed to understand that it made their covenant with God, null and void.

God chose a new nation to be his "people". (Acts 15:14) These would no longer be under a written Law, but under what became known as "the Law of Love".
Why would God keep serial covenant breakers as his people? What did John the Baptist tell the Pharisees? (Matthew 3:7-10) Their ancestry would not save them.

I guess what you consider "wrong headed" can be disputed by the scriptures themselves. What was Israel's role in the outworking of God's purpose? It is multi-faceted when you step back, divorce yourself of the emotional stuff, and see what was accomplished by their example.

I see that Israel, for the major part of their existence were a good example of contrasts. God used them to illustrate what happens when his people obeyed their God, and the rich blessings they experienced as a result....and what happened when they fell away (as they always did) and the punishments and withdrawal of his blessings that followed. What did they learn? Very little from what we read in the scriptures. Yet what is Israel's version of events? "Boo hoo. Poor hard done by us." :rolleyes: You've got to be kidding me!

This doesn't mean Jews, and Jewish scripture, are the end all or be all . . . far from it . . . they're layered with error, false interpretation, much of it purposeful. But they're still the guardians of the written word. They're still the experts, by far, in the written word.

They are not "still the guardians of the written word" because Jesus testified as to their 'abandonment' by God because, by the time Jesus began his ministry, they were already incorrigible. God had not bothered sending a prophet to them for hundreds of years because it simply wasn't worth his effort.

Who did Jesus go to? The religious leaders? Did he praise them in any way? Or did he castigate them for their complete failure to care for the sheep under their care? (Matthew 23)
What is "gehenna" and why did Jesus sentence those religious leaders to such a place? The first century Jews knew what "gehenna" was.....and they knew it wasn't Christendom's "hell".

Jesus was sent to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel"....but why were these sheep "lost"? What was Jesus' mission in going to them, if not to separate them out of that corrupted religious system and usher them into new pasturage, under the care of him as "the Fine Shepherd"...a refreshment for them...."my yoke is kindly and my load is light"....

In order to come to Christ, these ones needed an invitation from the Father (John 6:44; 65)...and they got it. That invitation was extended to all who felt "lost" in that system of rigid laws, but where no mercy or real justice was forthcoming. Jesus "showed them the Father" by his actions and his love and compassion for these "sheep without a shepherd". Where am I seeing any indication from Jesus that the Jews, under the influence of a corrupt priesthood, were in any way deserving of God's further attention? His goal was to produce the Messiah and to bless those who recognized and accepted him. Remember that the Jewish people 'cursed themselves and their children with Jesus' blood' (Matthew 27:25)...so you tell me...where does that leave the Jews who have not accepted Jesus?

And no Christian is going to get too close to the Tree of Life without getting the keys, one way or another, from Israel, Judaism, and the Jews.

It is true that the Jews played a role in the outworking of Jehovah's purpose, which is now reaching its culmination with Jesus' immanent return and the establishment of his Kingdom on earth....again, where does that leave the Jews who don't believe that he has been and gone....and is about to return? We get to the "Tree of Life", not because of them, but in spite of them IMO.

Individuals have never had the door closed to them, but as a nation, they still hold the same mistaken beliefs that they have stubbornly clung to for thousands of years....so how do you interpret Jesus' words at Matthew 23:37-39? When have they, as a nation, "blessed the one who came in Jehovah's name"? Please tell me.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The strict appearance you note is part and parcel of the hidden-ness of God’s “anointer.” And to see the truth of God’s anointer requires the ability and willingness to unite pagan symbols, Jewish symbol, and Christian symbols, in a more perfect union. And that can’t and won’t occur where religious cliques form orthodoxies designed to make Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Catholics, or Jews, the “chosen ones,” apart from, and without, their bosom brothers and sisters.

Sorry, I don't buy any of that. At this time of the end, there are "sheep and goats"..."wheat and weeds" being separated as we speak. Jesus knows which are which. The "wheat" exist...we have to be among them....on the right road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Case in point. “Messiah” isn’t the “anointed one,” but the one who anoints. And you can’t know that without knowing Judaism 101 and to some extent pagan precedents, since the word “anoint” comes first from pagan precedent, and is then transformed in Judaism to speak of “Messiah” (a Hebrew word associated with “anointing”).

Messiah is from "mashiyach" which is used for...

  1. anointed, anointed one
    1. of the Messiah, Messianic prince

    2. of the king of Israel

    3. of the high priest of Israel

    4. of Cyrus

    5. of the patriarchs as anointed kings" (Strongs)
Pagan precedents? Really? What has God shown us about mixing true worship with false worship. Why punish Israel for excursions into the worship of pagan gods if that was OK with him?

First to the pagan precedent (that preseeded Judaism).

In the ancient phallic-cults, the tribal god always fathered a bride’s firstborn son through jus primae noctis. He got first dibs. Only then were her subsequent offspring conceived through the intercourse between her and her human groom. In the pagan rituals, the bride went to the temple as a wedding ritual. She entered the most holy place where a phallic organ existed in the “bedchamber” of the temple (made of wood, metal, or stone). It was lubricated with holy oil (semen שמן) so she could deflower herself on the salubrious divine organ signifying that her firstborn son would be a priest, a son, of the tribal deity.

In Hebrew, the same word can be used for “hand” and “phallus” (yad יד) so that for a woman’s womb to be sanctified by god, or God, it must, in every case, even in the pagan religions, have the veil to her temple opened by the yad of God. Any woman whose virginity isn’t broken by the yad of God is a prostitute or whore, unfaithful, to God and her husband. She births only Nephilim, the fallen. In the ancient phallic cults, the flower of virginity was always, typologically at least, ritually, opened by god. Only by this sanctified opening of the veil of the biological temple (by the yad of god) was the womb properly christened such that everything that comes out of it from henceforth is sanctified.

This is total rubbish IMO. What kind of sick minds does this stuff come from? :facepalm:

Someone will suppose this is all just hyperbole, or imaginative twisting of the truth of scripture.
Ya think? o_O

But they will be wrong since if they knew anything about the scripture, Judaism, Hebrew, and the foundation of the Gospels and the Apostolic writings, they would know that by Jewish law, the law of the Torah, the would-be king is never “anointed,” unless he doesn’t inherit his crown, title, and authority, from his father as the firstborn. David was anointed because he wasn’t the firstborn. But Messiah is the firstborn. He can’t be the “anointed one” since the firstborn who inherits the title isn’t anointed. Messiah is neither anointed, nor can he be anointed, since he's God’s firstborn son who inherits his title through his firstborn status, a status that's never, by law, through anointing.

Again this is fallacious reasoning......God anointed his Messiah and this was demonstrated at his baptism. You are applying rules that do not apply.....a king and a priest could not come from the same tribe in Israel, yet Jesus is both. Do you know what a dispensation is?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
But why? That is the question. Given their track record.....why them? And why forgive them for their repeated transgressions when there was no basis, except the blood of animals to atone for them temporarily?

You gave Acts 15:14 as a proof-text for God turning to the Gentiles. And in Acts 15:18, the text speaks of God's foreknowledge concerning all things. Which is to say, Israel was selected out of the nations according to God's foreknowledge.

Someone might say foreknowledge of what? What, as you’ve said, is it about Jews and Israel that set them apart from the nations such that we might glimpse a foretaste of God's foreknowledge? I might propose, using something you've implied, nit-picking stubborn adherence to commandments.

God's covenant with Israel appears to be something like a narrative in Isaac Asimov's I-Robot. In the story, the scientist who gives the robot Sonny sentience and freewill makes him, the robot, promise to do something before he tells him what it is he wants him to do. Sonny asks his father/creator how he can promise to do something before he knows what it is? The scientist responds that Sonny must, if he wants to be a righteous, free, soul, place love above knowledge: his love for his father must create enough trust to believe that his father’s commandment, no matter how difficult to understand based on his own knowledge, has a purpose commensurate with his father giving it as his life’s task.

In the story, the father/scientist tells Sonny to kill him. And Sonny does.

Asimov is obviously thinking about Israel.



John
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
You gave Acts 15:14 as a proof-text for God turning to the Gentiles. And in Acts 15:18, the text speaks of God's foreknowledge concerning all things. Which is to say, Israel was selected out of the nations according to God's foreknowledge.

You seem to forget who “Israel” were. God was constrained in his purpose to bring his Messiah into the world as a human. In order to give his “anointed one” credentials, God set out very specific criteria, so that not just any man could claim to be “the one”.

God’s foreknowledge only shaped his response to their conduct, which he knew in advance, and so did Moses because God told him so, and because he had led these “stiff necked” people through the wilderness for 40 years. But Abraham was the most faithful man in existence at the time, and he chose his descendants to be the lineage for his Messiah. We see how God preserved that lineage and did not allow marriage alliances with any other nation.

There was nothing special about the people, who proved to be as sinful as any of the nation’s around them on many occasions. Israel’s history is a great example of contrasts.....a lesson there for all of us.

Someone might say foreknowledge of what? What, as you’ve said, is it about Jews and Israel that set them apart from the nations such that we might glimpse a foretaste of God's foreknowledge? I might propose, using something you've implied, nit-picking stubborn adherence to commandments.

Israel were the only people on earth who were born into a covenant relationship with God. That placed every single Jew under obligation to keep God’s law. It wasn’t a matter of choice....they had no choice. If they transgressed the Law, there was an expectation of punishment. They were set apart, but not because they themselves were any better than any other nation....it was because God was teaching all of us through his interaction with them.

Christians were different......they chose to obey God before dedicating themselves to him as disciples of his Christ. Their baptism was their public declaration of siding with God of their own free will. Israel was never given that choice.

God's covenant with Israel appears to be something like a narrative in Isaac Asimov's I-Robot. In the story, the scientist who gives the robot Sonny sentience and freewill makes him, the robot, promise to do something before he tells him what it is he wants him to do. Sonny asks his father/creator how he can promise to do something before he knows what it is? The scientist responds that Sonny must, if he wants to be a righteous, free, soul, place love above knowledge: his love for his father must create enough trust to believe that his father’s commandment, no matter how difficult to understand based on his own knowledge, has a purpose commensurate with his father giving it as his life’s task.

I never like to reduce the Bible’s teachings to a narrative in a novel or movie. One could use ET as a model for the life of Christ. Good grief!
Be that as it may, our trust in God is built up by having a close and personal relationship with him. Jesus shows us how to do that. He has ‘shown us the Father’ and he reflected his personality perfectly. We are drawn to this God in the kindness and compassion of his Christ. This one is our King...the one God appointed to rule us for the 1,000 years it will take to bring us back into reconciliation with God.

The Bible itself is enough. It is to me perfectly self explanatory. Once you start down rabbit holes, you can get lost. I like the K.I.S.S principle myself.....the big picture is not as complicated as you have been led to believe IMO. You are seeing complicated symbolisms where none exist and that have no real bearing on the Bible’s overall message. It has you bogged down, not free to explore the perfectly simple realities.

In the story, the father/scientist tells Sonny to kill him. And Sonny does.

Asimov is obviously thinking about Israel.

Regardless of how Asimov or anyone else perceives the situation, we see that the Bible explains all we need to know without unnecessarily complicating things. The truth has to be simple enough for a child to comprehend...otherwise you eliminate all the child-like ones from entering the kingdom. Do you not see this?

To make God’s truth so complicated, you turn people away from God, thinking that they need some kind of theological degree in order to qualify for life......it also gives people the wrong impression that someone else can know the truth for them. That is not true...these ones can teach us, but we are under obligation to learn the truth for ourselves, and then to pass on that knowledge to others. That is what Christianity is all about...isn’t it?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Regardless of how Asimov or anyone else perceives the situation, we see that the Bible explains all we need to know without unnecessarily complicating things. The truth has to be simple enough for a child to comprehend...otherwise you eliminate all the child-like ones from entering the kingdom. Do you not see this?

To make God’s truth so complicated, you turn people away from God, thinking that they need some kind of theological degree in order to qualify for life......it also gives people the wrong impression that someone else can know the truth for them. That is not true...these ones can teach us, but we are under obligation to learn the truth for ourselves, and then to pass on that knowledge to others. That is what Christianity is all about...isn’t it?

Fwiw, Isaac Asimov authored a 1300 page book commenting on every book of the bible. That he incorporated ideas from the bible into his fictional works makes his fiction sometimes a form of commentary on the bible.

Imo, the word of God can be simple for those who are simple, and complex for those who are complex, without creating contradiction. It has many layers of depth depending on how much time and energy a person wants to spend exploring it.

I do agree with you that its important that those who approach the simplicity of the word of God should not seek conflict with those who spend the majority of their waking hours with their nose in the word, and vice versa. . . Even in the case of James and Paul we find Paul renowned for exegeting the hell out of the Tanakh's nouns, while the word of God's simplicity was the source of James' felicity.

Btw, what part of Australia do you live. I've been there more than once. Just the east coast though.



John
 
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