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God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
Hermit Philosopher said:
I noticed that was not a question, so I’m assuming it’s meant as a statement?
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Yes. Correct. You are saying that there are messages from something divine. I am saying that what you are claiming to be messages could be the product of confirmation bias and pareidolia, and not the product of anything divine.
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
That is patently false. Every time you attack Baha'u'llah, and I have to defend Him, I am honored in the world to come, so you are doing me a big favor. Thanks.

“It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

If any man were to arise to defend, in his writings, the Cause of God against its assailants, such a man, however inconsiderable his share, shall be so honored in the world to come that the Concourse on high would envy his glory. No pen can depict the loftiness of his station, neither can any tongue describe its splendor.” Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, pp. 329-330
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Have you any evidence of life after death?

If not Bahaollah promises something that never gets delivered.
 
Hermit Philosopher

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Joe W said:
Yes. Correct. You are saying that there are messages from something divine. I am saying that what you are claiming to be messages could be the product of confirmation bias and pareidolia, and not the product of anything divine.
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Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.:)

Humbly
Hermit
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Hermit Philosopher said:
Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.:)

Humbly
Hermit
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If a book starts off with fiction and carries on with fiction it can't be relied upon as carrying a message from any god.

All the instances quoted in this thread as messages from god are in fact messages from evolution and here you're stuck. Because you have to stick to the 6-7 days story. And that was clearly written by men to scare the people into doing what they were told.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
If only those who want to believe believe and the rest don't what does that say about this god?
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To me it says that the others have chosen not to believe in God.
It says nothing about God.
PAUL MARKHAM said:
To me, it says he isn't there or doesn't care. As inventing a religion or discovering a new version of it isn't beyond the capabilities of people we must look at the hard evidence. Where is it?
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I believe that the Messenger of God is the "hard evidence" of God and that Baha'u'llah is the best evidence of God that humanity has ever had. Jesus was also good evidence, but since His life and mission are not verifiable, Jesus is not as good evidence as Baha'u'llah, since everything about Baha'u'llah is verifiable, including the fact that He wrote His own scriptures.
PAUL MARKHAM said:
But I will ask again what's the downside of not believing?
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I believe that the primary downside is that we will not know anything about God or His will for us, which is the beginning and the end of all things, according to my beliefs.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Not knowing God will affect us more in the afterlife than it does in this life. In this life we can pretend God does not exist and live for the things of this world, to eat and drink and be merry, but that will no longer be possible in the afterlife because it is not a material world.
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
To me it says that the others have chosen not to believe in God.
It says nothing about God.

I believe that the Messenger of God is the "hard evidence" of God and that Baha'u'llah is the best evidence of God that humanity has ever had. Jesus was also good evidence, but since His life and mission are not verifiable, Jesus is not as good evidence as Baha'u'llah, since everything about Baha'u'llah is verifiable, including the fact that He wrote His own scriptures.

I believe that the primary downside is that we will not know anything about God or His will for us, which is the beginning and the end of all things, according to my beliefs.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

Not knowing God will affect us more in the afterlife than it does in this life. In this life we can pretend God does not exist and live for the things of this world, to eat and drink and be merry, but that will no longer be possible in the afterlife because it is not a material world.
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Your problem is you judge gods by human frailties. I expect gods to be gods and not rely on a bunch of lesser beings to get his message, not send people who make very little marks in their lives and others claim they are messengers from god.

A god that can create the world and universe in 6 days, flood the Earth because we upset him, give Israelites a WMD, send plagues to Egypt, knock down the walls of Jericho, etc. Can either send a decent message or as History and archaeology have now proven they were all made up stories.

As for your afterlife story, what if that also is an invention like so much more in the bible?

Made up to scare the children.
 
ppp

ppp

Well-Known Member
Hermit Philosopher said:
Thank you. I understood you, Joe.

So, I was saying that whiles you very well could be right, you could also very well be wrong. But as it’s not about you being right/wrong, it makes no difference. To me, that is.:)

Humbly
Hermit
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Yes. It does matter to me whether or not what I believe and what I say is true. I cannot ignore the increased probability for causing harm from acting on beliefs that are not true. Nor can I muster the hubris necessary to consider myself the gauge of what is fact.
 
Hermit Philosopher

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
PAUL MARKHAM said:
...you have to stick to the 6-7 days story. And that was clearly written by men to scare the people into doing what they were told.
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Paul, perhaps your reply was only mistakenly directed at me... I personally don’t subscribe to literal interpretations of scripture and am not in fear of my beliefs.

However, I sense that you are ...upset/frustrated...? Not sure what you’re experiencing here...

Anyhow, it is somewhat, eh... strange that people who do not themselves believe in the existence of Divine Messages, should bother answering a question about whether such are flawed or not, do you think? You’re bound to feel that you’re speaking to deaf ears, really.

To upset yourself too much with what others think and you do not, is not constructive. A bit of a waste of your own energy, if you will.

Humbly
Hermit
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
PAUL MARKHAM said:
I expect gods to be gods and not rely on a bunch of lesser beings to get his message, not send people who make very little marks in their lives and others claim they are messengers from god.
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You can expect whatever you want to expect, but getting it is another matter.
The evidence indicates that God uses Messengers to communicate to humans.
God does whatever He chooses to do and nothing more.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209
PAUL MARKHAM said:
As for your afterlife story, what if that also is an invention like so much more in the bible?
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What if it isn't?
 
Hermit Philosopher

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Joe W said:
Yes. It does matter to me whether or not what I believe and what I say is true. I cannot ignore the increased probability for causing harm from acting on beliefs that are not true. Nor can I muster the hubris necessary to consider myself the gauge of what is fact.
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I understand what you are saying, Joe. It’s good for you to know what is of importance to you.

Know thyself, as is said.

Humbly
Hermit
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
You can expect whatever you want to expect, but getting it is another matter.
The evidence indicates that God uses Messengers to communicate to humans.
God does whatever He chooses to do and nothing more.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

What if it isn't?
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You're right in that the people who say he exists and sends messengers can say that he doesn't need to communicate, put any irrefutable evidence in front of us and all the rest to avoid the fact. The evidence isn't there.

Like your afterlife myth.
 
PAUL MARKHAM

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
We live in fairly peaceful times when one looks back at History. If this god couldn't get his message over while millions were being slaughtered in his name, what're the chances of him bothering now. That's assuming he's not a figment of the imagination of clever men.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Trailblazer said:
Why would this be consistent with a con artist?
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Because this approach would be useful to a con artist.

Say a con artist invented a religion with a God that supposedly responds to prayer, but the con artist knows that this God is made up.

If the God behaves consistently, then when the followers' prayers go unanswered, this would be a sign that the religion is false.

However, if he did as Baha'u'llah did - i.e. argue that God is capricious and will do as he pleases - then the con artist will have an excuse for when prayers go unanswered. He would have made it harder to definitively establish that his scam really is a scam.
 
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