How easy is it for Trinitarians to misread the scriptures?

sojourner said:

1) I may "seem" to you to be an "expert" in the doctrine, but I never made that claim.
2) It is a doctrine, but not a theory.
3) It is part of the Apostles' teaching.
4) I have invited, directed, encouraged, yea begged you to read it for yourself. I can't understand why you won't do that very thing and educate yourself?

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Sojourner, which apostle(s) taught that Almighty God, YHWH, the Father, is:

1. three persons?
2. God is Essence?
3. What is your definition of the title, “God”?
4. Which verse in Scriptures, or reference in your doctrine, claims that God is ESSENCE?

Soapy said:

Brilliant... brilliant rubbish!!!

Mankind is made in the image of God... the image comes from God... the spirit of man comes from God and when we die in the body our deathless spirit RETURNS to God....

In your argument: We are also GOD when we die!!!

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You have made several errors. 1/ confusing the throne of God with heaven. There are numerous heavens cf. 2 Cor 2:12 "caught up to the third heaven." Then there is the throne of God, in addition. Just because you might go to heaven doesn't mean to say you get called to the throne of God. No human will ever get called to the throne of the Father, although you might get called to the throne of Christ. However I was talking about the throne of the Father (obviously). When I talked about JC & HS coming out from God, I meant "the throne of the Father," not heaven or the throne of Jesus Christ post resurrection. 2/ The image comes from God does not mean that the image itself "comes out from God." 3/ The spirit can die by the actions of man himself, but the soul can only be destroyed by God.

Soapy said:

Amazing....!!

1. - Jesus ascended into Heaven and was seated at the right hand of God
2. - Jesus ascended into Heaven and was seated at the right hand of ESSENCE

Interesting...!!

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God is not essence, as essence (ousia) is not a word that appears in the bible, and the alternative hypostasis is not used in the context you have conveyed "at the right hand of essence."

eik said:

Anyone who claims to be an expert in the trinity is invariably not, as there is no biblical trinity where only the Father is described as "true God" (gospel & epistles of John). Christ is nowhere confused with the Father, and hardly if ever deferred to as God directly, but may be so by implication as he ascended to the right hand of the Father and resumed his place and role as the "word of God" (cf. Rev Ch. 1). So there is no issue with the risen Christ being inferred to be God, as he is one with God and co-eternal with God, but it doesn't infer a trinity within God as such because his divinity is positional to that of the Father and at the command of the Father, inferring conceptual distinctness in order (God is the head of Christ 1 Cor 11:3).

As far as I am aware, the only apostolic trinity doctrine is the same Deut 6:4 definition as before under the Old Testament, with the proviso that it is permissible to continue to talk of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as a separate "persons" from the Father. A primary point of departure of the philosophical trinity from the biblical trinity is in the 3 x hypostases "on the throne of God". The bible knows of Jesus only as the exact imprint of the hypostasis of God. This is the root problem with the Trinity doctrine: i.e. the attempt to define the throne of God by an anthropomorphic revelation of God, which inevitably borrows from Greek triadism for its divisive philosophical speculations.

We talk of the Holy Spirit because he acts in our lives and acted in the life of Christ. We talk of the son because the son appeared in the world and ascended to the right hand of God. It does not infer separate hypostases.

Every reference to the "son" in the bible is a primary reference to Jesus Christ the man being "sent" (the "Word" is an extended reference or inference from the man himself).

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Thank you for your answer. Yes, Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father. When Jesus was on the earth he did say he and the Father are one, so he could speak as God's representative certainly when he was on the earth. We know God's voice, Jesus' father, was heard from heaven when Jesus was baptized. (Matthew 3:17) "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."'
I hope I can get a definition or explanation of the wording of the apostles' doctrine on the trinity which has been mentioned several times here by sojourner.

“When they return to God, they are not perceived separately from the Father because they become part of God, even if we realize that they continue on as separate from the Father, but we cannot perceive or sense it unless caught up in a spiritual vision, and their separateness cannot be articulated except in terms of spiritual concepts.”

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Elk, you insinuated that when Jesus returned to heaven he was subsumed by God and therefore became ‘part of God’...

So my reply was to say that what you are saying is that when the spirit of a man returns to God when the man dies then you are saying that that spirit becomes part of God and thus IS GOD.... really!!

Perhaps you didn’t realise or meant that say that but nonetheless it is what you said...!!

Multiple heavens.. I class them as dimensions.
I can imagine a higher dimension in which the spirit of a person (not their physical flesh encasing) can be at any place in a lower physical dimension at any time desired. It’s a simple projection of the dimensional theory that starts with 1, 2, 3...dimensions which is one point in one place at one time ... a 4th dimension puts that point at ANY PLACE at ANY ONE time... and a fifth dimension puts that point at MANY PLACES AT ANY TIME...

But... we are limited in our flesh to three dimensions in any time moment. To move from one place to another all elements (or as many as required) must move almost together IN A TIME PERIOD.. I’m sitting in my living room... to go upstairs I must move all y physical flesh atoms together in [almost] the same time period along the path to the room door, up the stairs and into the bedroom. In a 4th dimension I need only move all my atoms in order (or so) straight into the upper room... there’s no barrier to my movement...

A 3 dimensional being cannot understand how a 4 dimensional being can see him in a sealed windowless room..,
A 4 dimensional being cannot understand why a 3 dimensional being thinks he can ‘hide’ from his sight in a 3 dimensional space...!

Jesus ‘walked’ through the walls of the upper room where the disciples were locked in for fear if the Jews. Jesus didn’t think it ‘magic’ to do that... the disciples thought he was a Spirit... Jesus reassured them that it was Him... Jesus... the very person they knew.. why are they amazed and frightened... ‘Touch me... see I’m NOT A SPIRIT... I have Flesh and bone [like you] UNLIKE A SPIRIT!!’

This shows that Jesus was ‘JUST LIKE THEM’... a human being!!! Thomas is not a testament to anything so it is wrong to claim that his uttering of ‘My Lord and my God’ meant he was claiming Jesus was God... In fact it is actually debatable that he even uttered such words seeing that it makes absolutely no sense when Jesus had showed Thomas that he was a flesh and bone being...!!!

However, Jesus’ IMMORTALISED body can be SHED and REMADE at Will. This is not amazing... the body is simply atoms and molecules in selected combinations and shapes. Spirit Angels showing themselves in the physical world form ethereal bodies that appear to look like human bodies in garments (significantly gleaming white)
Notice that they appear and disappear at Will... These ‘bodies’ are not real flesh and blood and bone... they are not needed to be nor has God authorised any such attributes (remember that the Holy Angels who rebelled DID create flesh and bone and blood bodies for themselves and put THEIR OWN SELVES (spirit) into them to enliven them... take this as a hint that when God created man and said, ‘LET US CREATE MAN...’ that God was speaking to the ANGELS (or [The angel who came to be known as] Satan... Note that ONLY THE BODY of Adam was created TOGETHER (Zoe under God’s order). The SPIRIT of Adam was put into him by the BREATHE OF GOD: ‘And the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL’.

You might also want to understand that ‘Image of God’ refers to qualities such as ‘Love’, ‘Wisdom’, ‘Self awareness’, ‘Forgiveness’, ‘Sympathy’, ‘Judgemanship’, ‘Rulership’, ‘Compassion’, ‘Creatorship’, ‘Power’, ‘Authorityshipness’, etc. You may note also that Holy Angels have these qualities also but are bounded by ‘DUTY’. They cannot ABUSE them else they will be in breach and, like a damaged component, will be destroyed!! God desires initially to DESTROY HIS IMAGE (Adam) when Adam became ‘damaged’ by sin! But God relented. Angels are only SPIRIT sons of God, kind of like ethereal servants with huge power and authority to act for God... they used compassion on LOT to give him time to leave Sodom, they threatened the bad prophet riding on his donkey showing they had authority to destroy him if he didn’t comply and turn back. They were told to persuade Zaccharias to call his son ‘John’ against Jewish tradition... Holy Angels are WISE and POWERFUL but know that they must only do what God has commanded them to do... if not, they will be destroyed!!! So though they are spirit Sons of God, their IMAGE of their creator does not extend to that of the Sonship of humanity ... indeed, they are but STEWARDS over the created order of the created world... and the new world to come ‘WILL BY NO MEANS BE RULED BY ANGELS’ (scriptures says... Quite right: a Steward is only a placeholder for the right (and matured) entity to takes its place. Satan knew this and said to Jesus (the Ruler in waiting) ‘I can give you the world rulership now if you worship me... IT IS MINE to give to whom I will’... He said this to tempt Jesus into taking his place as king over creation WITHOUT THE SUFFERING AND DEATH they both knew was set to come!!! Jesus agonised over this saying: ‘Father, if there could be another way’. But then dutifully complied: ‘But not my way, but YOUR WILL BE DONE!’

So now Satan knows that his stewardship is close to done and that his rebellion means he will be destroyed so he aims to persuade as many of the ‘images of God’ to also rebel and be destroyed with him...

True brothers, remain vigilant and true to the truth of the gospels and the prophesies and hopes in God the one and true: the Father, YHWH Almighty deity of worshipfulness, AND in his CHRIST, in Jesus the anointed: our Lord and the Chief priest to God! Amen.

YoursTrue said:

I hope I can get a definition or explanation of the wording of the apostles' doctrine on the trinity which has been mentioned several times here by sojourner.

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We most certainly live in hope of observing such a revelation from sojourner!!

eik said:

God is not essence, as essence (ousia) is not a word that appears in the bible, and the alternative hypostasis is not used in the context you have conveyed "at the right hand of essence."

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Too many errors from you claiming I made errors... you got the wrong end of the stick there, my man!

But the quoted part of your reply needs to be understood that it is SOJOURNER who is claiming that God is essence but he has never, despite our constant request, explained what he means by it,,, by ‘God is essence!’

Ask sojourner what he means... tell him that God is not ESSENCE... I will back you up on that point!!

YoursTrue said:

Again, as for the apostles' teaching, are you saying they formulated such a doctrine in the scriptures?

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the apostles' teaching is not all found in the Bible, although I would make the argument that, while the doctrine is not explicit in its completeness in scripture, the basics are at least implicit in scripture.

YoursTrue said:

It has to be a theory, even if it called a doctrine, since -- it cannot be proved if God is three persons each and all co-equal with each other, each and all three without beginning. If you think you can prove the validity or veracity of the doctrine, please do so.

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Actually, a theory is proven -- or it's not a theory. However, this isn't ontology, it's theology. We can't prove anything about God -- and we shouldn't try. Doctrines aren't ontological proofs; they're theological propositions. This is why this whole spirituality thing is called "Faith" and not "science." And the thing is, since the process isn't empirical but rather propositional, theological constructs must be held gently. Any theology, if carried out far enough, will unravel. We can look at God from any number of perspectives, but can never "hone in" on any ontological surety. Some perspectives will make sense to one, others will not. And that's OK.

YoursTrue said:

By the way, your picture of a tree and a moon is beautiful.

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Thank you!

Soapy said:

Sojourner, which apostle(s) taught that Almighty God, YHWH, the Father, is:

1. three persons?
2. God is Essence?
3. What is your definition of the title, “God”?
4. Which verse in Scriptures, or reference in your doctrine, claims that God is ESSENCE?

Click to expand...

1) I've previously pulled out names in other posts. Didn't you read them?
2) I don't attempt to define God. I do attempt to put forth theological propositions.
3) You don't believe the Bible speaks of God's being? "Being," "substance," "essence" all come from the Greek ousia. What scriptural passage that deals with God doesn't claim God's essence?

Soapy said:

How could this statement be read/misread:

• ‘A great cook made a meal for his king. The meal was sumptuous and filling. The king giving was all praises to the cook and he was well satisfied with the meal. However, despite the pleasure of the moment, he did not enjoy anything else as he was killed as soon as the meal was over!’

Who was killed?

A trinitarian would say it was the king...!!

But common sense says it was the cook!!!

Why?

The cook had stolen the meat for the meal from the kings estate - illegally poached - and the king was informed.

Trinitarians would read the story and base their opinion on their DESIRED VIEW. No matter what was shown to them in the explanation, they would maintain their viewpoint.

As a simple example: In the Scriptures, ‘Father’, means, ‘Creator’... yet Trinitarians continue to maintain that the ‘Son’ is the creator...

Also, they believe that the Son was somehow CREATED by the Father - but then NOT CREATED by the Father...
In fact both are FALSE... because to a trinitarian BOTH ARE THE SAME ... in their views!! This is expressed as ‘Uncreated’ in their parlance... an uncreated creation!

Try this:

• From whence does the Son come in trinity?
• What is the meaning of the title, ‘Sons?
• Why does the Son inherit from the Father if the son is co-almighty with the Father?

These are only a few questions that pose absolute problems god Trinitarians to answer with any credibility.

Can anyone give a run at answering?

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Hello...

I can give you an interpretation of your first list. but firstly! I wanted to say that words can make many great stories...however, this is GODs word thats spoken of..and in those stories have many mystical symbols and their meanings..deeper beyond Eyes cannot reach...are hidden codes in these beautiful HOLY stories...


#A great cook made a meal for his king.

-One has eaten knowledge...and for this knowledge WILL bring one gifts to anything they wish to be(you;chef..and your own kingdom)

#The meal was sumptuous and filling.

-The more one eats...by the more one becomes in....(filling).

#The king giving was all praises to the cook and he was well satisfied with the meal.

-for which(knowledge) your now are,
therefore Ought To Be what you.....will be satisfied by(this knowledge).

#However,

-within more one becomes...of it(knowledge), was in more it had one, believe in it(faith).

#despite the pleasure of the moment,

-[being unaware]They spoke highly in the meals they‘ve encountered(believed highly in themselves).

#he did not enjoy anything else as he was killed as soon as the meal was over!’

-this than becomes the reasons of having Created barriers(pride/ego/selfishness within knowledge)...



There are none other meals that be More enjoyable like as their own.
You are what you eat.


God-bless.

eik said:

Of course not. The essence of the misunderstanding lies in the huge discrepancy between God, who is always one and indivisible, and what comes out from God, namely the son and the Holy Spirit. Whilst they are away from God, they are identifiable by humans as truly separate persons from the Father. When they return to God, they are not perceived separately from the Father because they become part of God, even if we realize that they continue on as separate from the Father, but we cannot perceive or sense it unless caught up in a spiritual vision, and their separateness cannot be articulated except in terms of spiritual concepts.

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You might want to read up on Gnosticism. What you are saying sounds exactly like what they say. Seriously, you should check that out for yourself. Here's a little sample:

Emanations are a big deal Gnosticism, unlike the scriptures where that word is not found even once. In short, it is a Pagan doctrine that led Paul to say,

2Cor 11:4,

The Jesus who has lived forever with an immortal soul is the false Jesus Paul refers to in this verse. Again, if you want to read up on the immortal soul, you will have to go to Greek philosophy and Babylonian/Egyptian mythology. There you will find plenty of information on the immortal soul. Don't bother trying to find anything about it in the scriptures though, because there is no mention of such a thing. Perhaps the closest inference to an immortal soul can be found in Genesis 3:4 where the devil tells Eve that they will not die. That, of course, directly what God told her in Genesis 2:17, thus making the doctrine of an immortal soul a lie from the pit of hell.

Without a preexistant Jesus the trinity doctrine hammered out by Greek philosophy loving "church fathers" some 300 years after Paul could not have been formulated.

It is worth noting that the first Pope, Clement, also believed in life after death, thus casting his lot in with the devil. To this day, it is almost a universally accepted precept in the orthodox church that the dead aren't really dead, that they go up to heaven or down to hell right after dying. In that sense, the orthodox church has also cast it's lot in with the devil along with Clement.

The church needs to wake up. The sooner the better, because the world situation is deteriorating rather quickly. It looks like the state of things in the OT when Israel turned their back on God. If Jesus is not really God, then that means the church is worshiping a false god, just like Israel in the OT. But, Jesus is not God, and the orthodox church is worshiping a false god.

God bless

sojourner said:

the apostles' teaching is not all found in the Bible, although I would make the argument that, while the doctrine is not explicit in its completeness in scripture, the basics are at least implicit in scripture.


Actually, a theory is proven -- or it's not a theory. However, this isn't ontology, it's theology. We can't prove anything about God -- and we shouldn't try. Doctrines aren't ontological proofs; they're theological propositions. This is why this whole spirituality thing is called "Faith" and not "science." And the thing is, since the process isn't empirical but rather propositional, theological constructs must be held gently. Any theology, if carried out far enough, will unravel. We can look at God from any number of perspectives, but can never "hone in" on any ontological surety. Some perspectives will make sense to one, others will not. And that's OK.


Thank you!

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So when you say the "apostles' teaching" can you quote it? Is it a doctrine?

Soapy said:

Sojourner, which apostle(s) taught that Almighty God, YHWH, the Father, is:

1. three persons?
2. God is Essence?
3. What is your definition of the title, “God”?
4. Which verse in Scriptures, or reference in your doctrine, claims that God is ESSENCE?

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I'd like to hear that answer also.

sojourner said:

1) I've previously pulled out names in other posts. Didn't you read them?

Click to expand...

Can you remember those names and state them again, here?

2) I don't attempt to define God. I do attempt to put forth theological propositions.

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I asked which apostles defined the Father as God [in] Essence (or God as Essence) [and where is this shown]? I did not ask you to define God in this question.

3) You don't believe the Bible speaks of God's being? "Being," "substance," "essence" all come from the Greek ousia. What scriptural passage that deals with God doesn't claim God's essence?

Click to expand...

This question asks you to give your definition (as you use it or believe it to be used) of the TITLE ‘God’. It is not speaking of “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, but of the TITLE, the term, the etymology(?) of the word: ‘God’. Scriptures tells us that even YHWH GOD ‘called men of renown who received his word, “Gods”’... and also that YHWH GOD says of himself that he is ‘God of all whom are called Gods’. So certainly the meaning of the title, ‘God’ is not limited to whom we call ‘Almighty God; yhwh; the Father... the one and only TRUE GOD’.

Oh, and you didn’t answer question 4. Any reason for that?

YoursTrue said:

So when you say the "apostles' teaching" can you quote it? Is it a doctrine?

Click to expand...

What? No! The Apostles' teaching is everything the Apostles have taught through the ages. The Bible is part of that teaching. Decisions of church councils (such as Nicea), letters from bishops, Papal decrees, statements made ex cathedra, this is all part and parcel of the Apostles' teaching, because the bishops have been handed Apostolic authority, being in the Apostolic Succession.

rrobs said:

You might want to read up on Gnosticism. What you are saying sounds exactly like what they say. Seriously, you should check that out for yourself. Here's a little sample:

"Gnostics believed that God is far above and beyond, detached from humanity and creation entirely. God is instead the source of existence; spiritual forces emanate from God, and humanity can experience these. One of these emanations, for example, was Jesus Christ."
​

Emanations are a big deal Gnosticism, unlike the scriptures where that word is not found even once. In short, it is a Pagan doctrine that led Paul to say,

2Cor 11:4,

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
​

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I have to say you sound pretty much like a JW. If so you might want to change the description of your religion to JW.

As for coming out from God:

Jhn 16:27
"No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."

Jhn 16:30
"Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

Jhn 6:41
"At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
So you're grumbling because I said Jesus came out from God, and Jesus himself said he came from God and came down from heaven?

You may be getting confused between the incarnation (loosely defined with no specfic theological connotations), where Jesus did come from God, as he said himself - see above - and the gnostic doctrines of emanations, which is based on Greek paganism similarly to Trinitarianism, which has gods begetting gods in heaven.

rrobs said:

The Jesus who has lived forever with an immortal soul is the false Jesus Paul refers to in this verse. Again, if you want to read up on the immortal soul, you will have to go to Greek philosophy and Babylonian/Egyptian mythology. There you will find plenty of information on the immortal soul. Don't bother trying to find anything about it in the scriptures though, because there is no mention of such a thing. Perhaps the closest inference to an immortal soul can be found in Genesis 3:4 where the devil tells Eve that they will not die. That, of course, directly what God told her in Genesis 2:17, thus making the doctrine of an immortal soul a lie from the pit of hell.

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Rubbish, because the death spoken in the bible is always death of the body by default, unless it clearly denotes something else, such as death of the spirit, as in Mat 8:22. Christ distinguishes death of the body from death of the soul in Mat 10:28

rrobs said:

Without a preexistant Jesus the trinity doctrine hammered out by Greek philosophy loving "church fathers" some 300 years after Paul could not have been formulated.

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Again I disagree. The Trinity doctine is actually founded on an arian Jesus, which is why trinitarianism was beset with the arian heresy, because it defines the Word (i.e. Son) to have been begotten before the world began, whereas non-trinitarian Christianity simply accepts Jesus as "God and being with God in the beginning," This is why Trinitarians had to import the homoousios doctrine into Christianity, to counter the matter that their doctrine was inherently arian.

rrobs said:

It is worth noting that the first Pope, Clement, also believed in life after death, thus casting his lot in with the devil. To this day, it is almost a universally accepted precept in the orthodox church that the dead aren't really dead, that they go up to heaven or down to hell right after dying. In that sense, the orthodox church has also cast it's lot in with the devil along with Clement.

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Weasle words. The dead can still be "really" dead and their spirit live on, by the power of God. Your God is too small. See Philippians 1:23-24.

rrobs said:

The church needs to wake up. The sooner the better, because the world situation is deteriorating rather quickly. It looks like the state of things in the OT when Israel turned their back on God. If Jesus is not really God, then that means the church is worshiping a false god, just like Israel in the OT. But, Jesus is not God, and the orthodox church is worshiping a false god.
God bless

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The Word was God Jn 1:1, and as Jesus ascended to where he was before, he returned to being God

Jhn 6:62
"Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!"

Soapy said:

Elk, you insinuated that when Jesus returned to heaven he was subsumed by God and therefore became ‘part of God’...

So my reply was to say that what you are saying is that when the spirit of a man returns to God when the man dies then you are saying that that spirit becomes part of God and thus IS GOD.... really!!

Click to expand...

No I am not saying that. Jesus was God as the word, and when he returned to heaven, he returned to his former position:

Jhn 6:62
"Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!"

Men are completely different as they didn't come from God but from "below Jhn 8:23 even if some do go to heaven as sons of God by the grace of God. Only the true son came from God.

Soapy said:

Perhaps you didn’t realise or meant that say that but nonetheless it is what you said...!!

Multiple heavens.. I class them as dimensions.
I can imagine a higher dimension in which the spirit of a person (not their physical flesh encasing) can be at any place in a lower physical dimension at any time desired. It’s a simple projection of the dimensional theory that starts with 1, 2, 3...dimensions which is one point in one place at one time ... a 4th dimension puts that point at ANY PLACE at ANY ONE time... and a fifth dimension puts that point at MANY PLACES AT ANY TIME...

But... we are limited in our flesh to three dimensions in any time moment. To move from one place to another all elements (or as many as required) must move almost together IN A TIME PERIOD.. I’m sitting in my living room... to go upstairs I must move all y physical flesh atoms together in [almost] the same time period along the path to the room door, up the stairs and into the bedroom. In a 4th dimension I need only move all my atoms in order (or so) straight into the upper room... there’s no barrier to my movement...

A 3 dimensional being cannot understand how a 4 dimensional being can see him in a sealed windowless room..,
A 4 dimensional being cannot understand why a 3 dimensional being thinks he can ‘hide’ from his sight in a 3 dimensional space...!

Jesus ‘walked’ through the walls of the upper room where the disciples were locked in for fear if the Jews. Jesus didn’t think it ‘magic’ to do that... the disciples thought he was a Spirit... Jesus reassured them that it was Him... Jesus... the very person they knew.. why are they amazed and frightened... ‘Touch me... see I’m NOT A SPIRIT... I have Flesh and bone [like you] UNLIKE A SPIRIT!!’

This shows that Jesus was ‘JUST LIKE THEM’... a human being!!! Thomas is not a testament to anything so it is wrong to claim that his uttering of ‘My Lord and my God’ meant he was claiming Jesus was God... In fact it is actually debatable that he even uttered such words seeing that it makes absolutely no sense when Jesus had showed Thomas that he was a flesh and bone being...!!!

However, Jesus’ IMMORTALISED body can be SHED and REMADE at Will. This is not amazing... the body is simply atoms and molecules in selected combinations and shapes. Spirit Angels showing themselves in the physical world form ethereal bodies that appear to look like human bodies in garments (significantly gleaming white)
Notice that they appear and disappear at Will... These ‘bodies’ are not real flesh and blood and bone... they are not needed to be nor has God authorised any such attributes (remember that the Holy Angels who rebelled DID create flesh and bone and blood bodies for themselves and put THEIR OWN SELVES (spirit) into them to enliven them... take this as a hint that when God created man and said, ‘LET US CREATE MAN...’ that God was speaking to the ANGELS (or [The angel who came to be known as] Satan... Note that ONLY THE BODY of Adam was created TOGETHER (Zoe under God’s order). The SPIRIT of Adam was put into him by the BREATHE OF GOD: ‘And the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL’.

You might also want to understand that ‘Image of God’ refers to qualities such as ‘Love’, ‘Wisdom’, ‘Self awareness’, ‘Forgiveness’, ‘Sympathy’, ‘Judgemanship’, ‘Rulership’, ‘Compassion’, ‘Creatorship’, ‘Power’, ‘Authorityshipness’, etc. You may note also that Holy Angels have these qualities also but are bounded by ‘DUTY’. They cannot ABUSE them else they will be in breach and, like a damaged component, will be destroyed!! God desires initially to DESTROY HIS IMAGE (Adam) when Adam became ‘damaged’ by sin! But God relented. Angels are only SPIRIT sons of God, kind of like ethereal servants with huge power and authority to act for God... they used compassion on LOT to give him time to leave Sodom, they threatened the bad prophet riding on his donkey showing they had authority to destroy him if he didn’t comply and turn back. They were told to persuade Zaccharias to call his son ‘John’ against Jewish tradition... Holy Angels are WISE and POWERFUL but know that they must only do what God has commanded them to do... if not, they will be destroyed!!! So though they are spirit Sons of God, their IMAGE of their creator does not extend to that of the Sonship of humanity ... indeed, they are but STEWARDS over the created order of the created world... and the new world to come ‘WILL BY NO MEANS BE RULED BY ANGELS’ (scriptures says... Quite right: a Steward is only a placeholder for the right (and matured) entity to takes its place. Satan knew this and said to Jesus (the Ruler in waiting) ‘I can give you the world rulership now if you worship me... IT IS MINE to give to whom I will’... He said this to tempt Jesus into taking his place as king over creation WITHOUT THE SUFFERING AND DEATH they both knew was set to come!!! Jesus agonised over this saying: ‘Father, if there could be another way’. But then dutifully complied: ‘But not my way, but YOUR WILL BE DONE!’

So now Satan knows that his stewardship is close to done and that his rebellion means he will be destroyed so he aims to persuade as many of the ‘images of God’ to also rebel and be destroyed with him...

True brothers, remain vigilant and true to the truth of the gospels and the prophesies and hopes in God the one and true: the Father, YHWH Almighty deity of worshipfulness, AND in his CHRIST, in Jesus the anointed: our Lord and the Chief priest to God! Amen.

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Amen

Soapy said:

Can you remember those names and state them again, here?

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Paul, Clement, Polycarp, Tertullian, Ignatius, Januarius, Eutychius, Ossius, Caecilianus, Alexander, Macarius, Menophates, Artemidorus, Theognis, Paphnutius, Spyridon, most Apostles after Nicea.

Soapy said:

I asked which apostles defined the Father as God [in] Essence (or God as Essence) [and where is this shown]? I did not ask you to define God in this question.

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My enumerations do not correspond to yours. I don't know why you have a problem with "essence." Don't you believe God has being? The Biblical writers certainly thought so.

Soapy said:

This question asks you to give your definition (as you use it or believe it to be used) of the TITLE ‘God’. It is not speaking of “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, but of the TITLE, the term, the etymology(?) of the word: ‘God’. Scriptures tells us that even YHWH GOD ‘called men of renown who received his word, “Gods”’... and also that YHWH GOD says of himself that he is ‘God of all whom are called Gods’. So certainly the meaning of the title, ‘God’ is not limited to whom we call ‘Almighty God; yhwh; the Father... the one and only TRUE GOD’.

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God is the divine creative, restorative, and supportive power. That's not complete by any means.

Soapy said:

Oh, and you didn’t answer question 4. Any reason for that?

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See above.

eik said:

I have to say you sound pretty much like a JW. If so you might want to change the description of your religion to JW.

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No JW here. They believe in a preexisting Jesus which would hardly make him like his brethren (us).

Heb 2:17,

As for coming out from God:

Jhn 16:27
"No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God."

Jhn 16:30
"Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

Jhn 6:41
"At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”

​

So you're grumbling because I said Jesus came out from God, and Jesus himself said he came from God and came down from heaven?

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One thing "coming from" another does not prove a trinity or that Jesus is God. If anything, one thing coming from another indicates two distinct entities.

Matt 2:6,

Here it says Jesus come out (same Greek word as the other "came from"s) Bethlehem. Does that then make Jesus Bethlehem?
Lot's of things came down from heaven in the Bible. Here's just one:

Isa 55:10,

Here is another place where Jesus said he came from the father.

John 8:42,

Notice the simple grammatical construction in part "B" that show there is a sender and there is the one sent. It takes incredible mental gymnastics to make the two one. The same principle is demonstrated over and over again every time Jesus prays to God. God does not pray to Himself! I think one of the most notable examples of this is in the garden when Jesus asked God 3 times to do something besides his crucifixion as a remedy to sin. He ended by saying, "not my will, but thine be done." Two completely diametrically opposed wills here. Does God suffer from some kind of multiple personality disorder? I think it much easier to just believe that Jesus is in fact the son of God, which the scriptures declare some 50 times as opposed to the 0 appearances of the unscriptural "God the Son" appellation.

Here's a couple other verses that talk of things coming down from heaven: Ps 78:24 and John 6:31,

To "come down from heaven" is a well know Jewish idiom that simply means good things came from God. Rain in the desert is certainly a good thing. Jesus even more so. Way more so!

I know you wrote more, but I hope you don't mind me not biting off too big of a chunk. In any case, any ideas on what I wrote above?

Also, if you wouldn't mind, let's just stick to the scriptures and avoid calling each other's study rubbish and weasel words. You are clearly an intelligent individual with a real love for God and His word. While I obviously disagree with some things you say, you are nonetheless deserving of my respect. You're my brother for crying out loud! I gotta love ya!

I might also say now that I do not have a corner on the truth, nor do I understand every verse in the scriptures. John is full of rather enigmatic statements by Jesus. It is well known for just that. I will admit there are some verses in John that seem to support the notion that Jesus is God, but there are many, many other verses that would preclude such a thing. Jesus had to rely on God for doing his work, he said God was greater than he, he said that God knew things he himself did not know, he had a different will than God, and much more. Again, I will point out that Jesus is called the son of God some 50 times. God knows what a father is and what a son is. He understands they can in no wise be the same person. Jesus is born of the seed of God, but that makes him God's son, not God Himself.

sojourner said:

the apostles' teaching is not all found in the Bible, although I would make the argument that, while the doctrine is not explicit in its completeness in scripture, the basics are at least implicit in scripture.

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So since you say the apostles' teaching is not all found in the Bible, where would a person find them?

rrobs said:

No JW here. They believe in a preexisting Jesus which would hardly make him like his brethren (us).

Heb 2:17,

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.​

One thing "coming from" another does not prove a trinity or that Jesus is God. If anything, one thing coming from another indicates two distinct entities.

Matt 2:6,

And thou Bethlehem, [in] the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
​

Here it says Jesus come out (same Greek word as the other "came from"s) Bethlehem. Does that then make Jesus Bethlehem?

​

Lot's of things came down from heaven in the Bible. Here's just one:

Isa 55:10,

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
​

Here is another place where Jesus said he came from the father.

John 8:42,

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
​

Notice the simple grammatical construction in part "B" that show there is a sender and there is the one sent. It takes incredible mental gymnastics to make the two one. The same principle is demonstrated over and over again every time Jesus prays to God. God does not pray to Himself! I think one of the most notable examples of this is in the garden when Jesus asked God 3 times to do something besides his crucifixion as a remedy to sin. He ended by saying, "not my will, but thine be done." Two completely diametrically opposed wills here. Does God suffer from some kind of multiple personality disorder? I think it much easier to just believe that Jesus is in fact the son of God, which the scriptures declare some 50 times as opposed to the 0 appearances of the unscriptural "God the Son" appellation.

Here's a couple other verses that talk of things coming down from heaven: Ps 78:24 and John 6:31,

To "come down from heaven" is a well know Jewish idiom that simply means good things came from God. Rain in the desert is certainly a good thing. Jesus even more so. Way more so!

I know you wrote more, but I hope you don't mind me not biting off too big of a chunk. In any case, any ideas on what I wrote above?

Also, if you wouldn't mind, let's just stick to the scriptures and avoid calling each other's study rubbish and weasel words. You are clearly an intelligent individual with a real love for God and His word. While I obviously disagree with some things you say, you are nonetheless deserving of my respect. You're my brother for crying out loud! I gotta love ya!

I might also say now that I do not have a corner on the truth, nor do I understand every verse in the scriptures. John is full of rather enigmatic statements by Jesus. It is well known for just that. I will admit there are some verses in John that seem to support the notion that Jesus is God, but there are many, many other verses that would preclude such a thing. Jesus had to rely on God for doing his work, he said God was greater than he, he said that God knew things he himself did not know, he had a different will than God, and much more. Again, I will point out that Jesus is called the son of God some 50 times. God knows what a father is and what a son is. He understands they can in no wise be the same person. Jesus is born of the seed of God, but that makes him God's son, not God Himself.

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The Bible says that Mary had an extraordinary birth. Do you remember the prayer Jesus made when he spoke to his heavenly father? John 17:5. "So now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world existed." So Jesus was in heaven with glory before he came to the earth.