Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Nova2216 said:

Nova - Does the word of God say some were placed into the kingdom in the first century? (Col.1:13)

YES / NO

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Your problem is in insisting there is only one kingdom. Also, as I've said before, you mix up people and times. You appear to take the entire Bible as written directly to and about you. You ignore the differences between Israel and the Church. You ignore the difference that the death and resurrection made in God's plan.

Nova2216 said:

You are hung up on Bullingers bible notes which are not inspired.

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Well, I really wish I hadn't brought up Bullinger. At least he understands the times and peoples of the Bible.

I will say it may be disappointing to you when Jesus snatches you away into the air, thus making you miss Armageddon. What good did Jesus do for you? You seem to want to experience the grand event as a gentile, instead of being with Jesus. The scriptures say we will meet him in the air BEFORE he comes to the earth. They further say we will be with him for evermore after that.

rrobs said:

Well, I really wish I hadn't brought up Bullinger. At least he understands the times and peoples of the Bible.

I will say it may be disappointing to you when Jesus snatches you away into the air, thus making you miss Armageddon. What good did Jesus do for you? You seem to want to experience the grand event as a gentile, instead of being with Jesus. The scriptures say we will meet him in the air BEFORE he comes to the earth. They further say we will be with him for evermore after that.

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Sorry to bother you. I do not know if you saw post 760. I would really like your opinion. Thanks

rrobs said:

Your problem is in insisting there is only one kingdom. Also, as I've said before, you mix up people and times. You appear to take the entire Bible as written directly to and about you. You ignore the differences between Israel and the Church. You ignore the difference that the death and resurrection made in God's plan.

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Are you contending there are two kingdoms of Christ during the NT times.

Define (in short) the differences between Israel and the church in NT times.

I am not following you.

We went over (Gal.3:26-28). All (Jews / Gentilse) are now saved in the one body (the church / kingdom).

I think you are misunderstanding what I believe and teach.

rrobs said:

Your problem is in insisting there is only one kingdom. Also, as I've said before, you mix up people and times. You appear to take the entire Bible as written directly to and about you. You ignore the differences between Israel and the Church. You ignore the difference that the death and resurrection made in God's plan.

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The fact you cannot (or will not) answer my questions should give you pause when it comes to what you believe (Premillennialism).

Please answer the questions.

Does (Col.1:13) claim some people were placed into the kingdom during the first century?

If this is so, doesn't that mean the kingdom had to be established during the first century?

YES / NO

rrobs said:

Well, I really wish I hadn't brought up Bullinger. At least he understands the times and peoples of the Bible.

I will say it may be disappointing to you when Jesus snatches you away into the air, thus making you miss Armageddon. What good did Jesus do for you? You seem to want to experience the grand event as a gentile, instead of being with Jesus. The scriptures say we will meet him in the air BEFORE he comes to the earth. They further say we will be with him for evermore after that.

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You are mixing what I believe and teach up with what you believe and teach from what I can tell.

1. Bullenger is not helping you with those thoughts of men in his bible (Companion Bible).

Throw them man-made thoughts away and study the bible ALONE and see what happens and where the word of God leads you.


2. Jesus will not set one foot on earth when he comes again (1Cor.15:24).

Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

Christ comes in the air

Then cometh the end.

The Lord will DISSOLVE this world. There will be no world to live on after Jesus return according to (2Peter 3:10,11).

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,

Friend when Gods DISSOLVES something there will be nothing left.

3. There is not 1000yrs between these two resurrections mentioned in (Jn 5:28,29) as the Premillennilist believe and teach.

4. (Rev. 20) does not mention any of the things most Premillennialist believe and teach these verses teach.

Such as -

* Christ Coming
* Establishment of a kingdom
* Earthly Reign
* Bodily Reigning
* Throne of David
* Jews being regathered to Jerusalem

There is a word for that. (Eisegesis)

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eisegesis
Eisegesis | Definition of Eisegesis by Merriam-Webster
Definition of EISEGESIS

Eisegesis definition is - the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas.



Thanks

There Will Be No Signs!

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(an excerpt)

It is not uncommon to hear people discussing the end of time and delineating the “signs” that, they say, are proof that Christ’s return is imminent. These signs include “wars and rumors of wars,” “earthquakes,” and various political/military events that one observes on the evening news. These loud proponents of gloom claim to be representing the Bible in their calculations and forecasts. Of course, to date, every attempt to pinpoint the date of Christ’s return has failed.


Read more here.

There Will Be No Signs!

lostwanderingsoul said:

Sorry to bother you. I do not know if you saw post 760. I would really like your opinion. Thanks

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No bother whatsoever. Sorry for the long delay.

There are only 4 places in the scriptures that use the words "born again." Three of them are in the Gospel of John when Jesus was telling the Pharisee he had to be born again to see the kingdom of God. The other usage is in 1 Peter 1:23 and it applies to Christians.

1Pet 1:23,

The first word, "being," is in the present tense, so it appears to say we are born again in the here and now. When a person confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9-10), they receive holy spirit just like the Apostles on the day of Pentecost. Christians have a different life force keeping them alive than do non-Christians.

Gal 2:20,

Notice that all of this verse is in the present tense. It says we live because of the believing Jesus had. Besides following a perfect life, he believed God would raise him from the dead. Of course if he were God that would mean not very much. On the other hand, if, as the scriptures actually say, he was a man tempted like you and I (Heb 4:15, 1 Tim 2:5), then it is a most amazing thing Jesus did for us. In any case, Jesus, by his perfect obedience, made a whole new life force available to those who believe, hence the new birth.

There is nowhere in the scriptures that specifically say Jesus was born again. As you pointed out, it does say he was the firstborn from among the dead. I don't think that is the same thing as Christians getting born again.

We are born again right now, but when Jesus comes back we will trade in these fleshly bodies for a brand new body just like his (1 John 3:2). He did some pretty amazing things after his resurrection, things which we will be able to do.

Anyway, that's the way I understand the scriptures about the new birth. Do I have perfect knowledge of that? No! But I, you, and every other Christian will have it when we see him as he is.

God bless

Nova2216 said:

There Will Be No Signs!

by Dave Miller, Ph.D.

(an excerpt)

It is not uncommon to hear people discussing the end of time and delineating the “signs” that, they say, are proof that Christ’s return is imminent. These signs include “wars and rumors of wars,” “earthquakes,” and various political/military events that one observes on the evening news. These loud proponents of gloom claim to be representing the Bible in their calculations and forecasts. Of course, to date, every attempt to pinpoint the date of Christ’s return has failed.


Read more here.

There Will Be No Signs!

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Exactly! Has there ever been a time in history when we've not had wars, rumors of wars, earthquakes, etc? Don't think so.

Also, anytime someone gives a date I know for certain that it won't be that date, given that Jesus plainly said no man knows the day.

Having said that, I do think that Jesus could come anytime, maybe before you even read this. It could happen anytime, but anytime includes form now to 100,000 years from now.

In any case, for me I figure about another 20-30 years before I die (just turned 70). Since I'll have no consciousness of time when dead, I won't know if Jesus came the day after I died or 100,000 years after I died. Practically speaking, that means I only have to wait another 20 to 30 years or so and I'll be with him forever! All I know is he'll wake me up instead of some stupid alarm clock, and instead of putting on my regular clothes I'll be trying on a brand new body Jesus prepared just for me. I hope it comes before you read this, but I know it'll be soon enough. Besides, we'll have forevermore to life a life free from sorrow, pain, and death. Holy cow, suddenly I feel like doing some somersaults! Thanks for the reminder.

God bless

Nova2216 said:

You are mixing what I believe and teach up with what you believe and teach from what I can tell.

1. Bullenger is not helping you with those thoughts of men in his bible (Companion Bible).

Throw them man-made thoughts away and study the bible ALONE and see what happens and where the word of God leads you.

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Good advice. It's what God said the Bereans did after hearing Paul. They searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not.

I don't automatically believe anything anybody says about the scriptures. I wait until I can see things for myself from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Nothing wrong with reading other people's ideas, but they must always be compared to the scriptures. I just happen to think Bullinger is right about much of what he says, including about the kingdoms.

Jesus will not set one foot on earth when he comes again (1Cor.15:24).

Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God,

Christ comes in the air

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Hold on there for one second. Aren't you missing the part about we will meet him up there?

1Thess 4:17,

Then cometh the end.

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Yes, AFTER we meet Jesus in the air.

The Lord will DISSOLVE this world. There will be no world to live on after Jesus return according to (2Peter 3:10,11).

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,

Friend when Gods DISSOLVES something there will be nothing left.

3. There is not 1000yrs between these two resurrections mentioned in (Jn 5:28,29) as the Premillennilist believe and teach.

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How does that not say there will be 1,000 years between the two resurrections?

By the way, nowhere does it say Christians will be resurrected in either of those resurrections. When Jesus comes in the air, the dead in Christ will be raised from among the dead and those who are alive when he comes will meet Jesus in the air. We are the light of the world. When we go all hell will break loose, i.e. the events in the Book of Revelation begins.

The two resurrections are for non-Christians. They will be raised and judged by Jesus according to their works. They will not get cast into the lake of fire just because they are not Christians. That would eliminate everybody born in the 4,000 years previous to the new birth being made available, as well as the proverbial native in the Amazon who never heard of Jesus. Jesus will judge them fairly according to their hearts how they conducted their life. I can't say for sure, but I suspect more non-Christians will make the cut than not, given that most people are pretty decent. Their actions may not always line up with the truth, but Jesus understands that because of our dead flesh it would simply be not possible for anyone other than Jesus to "earn" a seat in paradise. Jesus will judge righteous judgment is the bottom line.

4. (Rev. 20) does not mention any of the things most Premillennialist believe and teach these verses teach.

Click to expand...

Such as -

* Christ Coming
* Establishment of a kingdom
* Earthly Reign
* Bodily Reigning
* Throne of David
* Jews being regathered to Jerusalem

Click to expand...

I guess I'm a premilliennialist, but I agree that Revelation 20 does not talk specifically about any of the above. It deal primarily with judgment. The next two chapters deal with most of those things.

Thanks for the discussion. My experience is that most people give up when I don't agree with everything they say. I'm going to guess that some of what you say is right and some is wrong. About the same for me. At least I think we are both born again, so we'll know the score when he comes back.

God bless.

Nova2216 said:

Are you contending there are two kingdoms of Christ during the NT times.

Define (in short) the differences between Israel and the church in NT times.

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The church is composed of those Jews and those Gentiles who have been born again. Of course not all of them have been born again, so along with the Church we still have Jews and Gentiles. In this day and age, we then have Jews, Gentiles, and the Church

We went over (Gal.3:26-28). All (Jews / Gentilse) are now saved in the one body (the church / kingdom).

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I don't see where all Jews/Gentiles are saved and members of the body. Like I said above, only those who are born again, i.e. those who have done Rom 10:9-10 or if you like, those who have been baptized in water. I personally don't agree with the water part, but the main point is that not all Jews and Gentiles will do either of those things and are thus not born again and members of the Church of the Body of Christ.

I think you are misunderstanding what I believe and teach.

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Highly possible. It's hard enough to understand other people when they speak face to face, let alone via social media.

I do understand you are a wonderful son of God with all power and that's good enough for me! I love you as a brother in Christ. We'll figure it all out when Jesus comes back!

Nova2216 said:

Is it your contention that one is NOT saved by grace ALONE?

Since there is not one verse which says we are saved by grace ALONE.

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We can only be saved by grace alone because God gets all the credit.

74x12 said:

We can only be saved by grace alone because God gets all the credit.

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There is not one verse which says men are saved by grace ALONE.



And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him (Heb.5:9)


But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.(Acts 10:33)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father (Mt.7:21)

(Rom.6:16-18)

16. Decide who to serve.
17. Obey a certain doctrine
18. Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness

The above passage is referring to (Rom.6:3-6)

Baptized into Christ
Baptized into Christ
Baptized into Christ

Salvation is only In Christ (2Tim.2;10).

NEWNESS of life only comes at the point of baptism in water (not before). (Rom.6:3-6) (2Cor.5:17)

rrobs said:

Good advice. It's what God said the Bereans did after hearing Paul. They searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true or not.

I don't automatically believe anything anybody says about the scriptures. I wait until I can see things for myself from the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. Nothing wrong with reading other people's ideas, but they must always be compared to the scriptures. I just happen to think Bullinger is right about much of what he says, including about the kingdoms.


Hold on there for one second. Aren't you missing the part about we will meet him up there?

1Thess 4:17,

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Yes, AFTER we meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:5,

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.​

How does that not say there will be 1,000 years between the two resurrections?

By the way, nowhere does it say Christians will be resurrected in either of those resurrections. When Jesus comes in the air, the dead in Christ will be raised from among the dead and those who are alive when he comes will meet Jesus in the air. We are the light of the world. When we go all hell will break loose, i.e. the events in the Book of Revelation begins.

The two resurrections are for non-Christians. They will be raised and judged by Jesus according to their works. They will not get cast into the lake of fire just because they are not Christians. That would eliminate everybody born in the 4,000 years previous to the new birth being made available, as well as the proverbial native in the Amazon who never heard of Jesus. Jesus will judge them fairly according to their hearts how they conducted their life. I can't say for sure, but I suspect more non-Christians will make the cut than not, given that most people are pretty decent. Their actions may not always line up with the truth, but Jesus understands that because of our dead flesh it would simply be not possible for anyone other than Jesus to "earn" a seat in paradise. Jesus will judge righteous judgment is the bottom line.


I guess I'm a premilliennialist, but I agree that Revelation 20 does not talk specifically about any of the above. It deal primarily with judgment. The next two chapters deal with most of those things.

Thanks for the discussion. My experience is that most people give up when I don't agree with everything they say. I'm going to guess that some of what you say is right and some is wrong. About the same for me. At least I think we are both born again, so we'll know the score when he comes back.

God bless.

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Christ only has one kingdom. (Mt.16:18) (Col.1:13).

It began in (Acts 2).


How do you get two kingdoms?



The only two kingdoms I know of is -

1. Satans kingdom

and

2. Christs kingdom.




If anyone can be saved without obeying the gospel then the Lord lied in (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20) (1Peter 1:22,23).

God is no respecter of persons (Rom.2:11)




(Rev.20: 1-6) speaks of a bottomless pit (no such thing) (figurative language)

(Rev.20:1-6) speaks of a key to the bottomless pit.(no such thing) (figurative language)

But then when you read the other things in the very same context you claim they are literal.(1000 yrs)

The 1000yrs is FIGURATIVE language and not literal.

The whole text in (Rev. 20:1-6) is either literal or figurative.


Rev.20 is FIGURATIVE.

The text where the Premillennialist go to to prove there will be a LITERAL kingdom on earth is actually a FIGURATIVE passage.


Thanks

74x12 said:

We can only be saved by grace alone because God gets all the credit.

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You can say that all day long if you want.

I hope at some point you OPEN YOUR BIBLE and notice that the bible does not say what you hope it says.

We are not talking about a trip to Six Flags.

We are talking about our eternity.

It baffles me that most people do not seem to take this seriously. Not serious enough to make sure what they teach can be found in the bible (Acts 17:11) (Jn 5:39) (Peter 4:11).




Thanks

People misunderstand grace. You say you obey? I respond then in that case who gave you the grace necessary in order to obey?

Who is it that makes a person different than others? And what good thing do they have that they didn't receive from God? Because every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights. And if they did receive it from God; then why do they act like they have it all by themselves? That's how people don't acknowledge the grace(unmerited favor) of God. That's why they can't truly say that works save. The truth is that God saves; not works. (Ephesians 2:9)

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn’t receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

So in summary people just misunderstand grace. They believe it means they don't do need to do works; but the Bible doesn't say that. The grace of God is what is making people do the works of God. As Jesus said I am the vine you are the branches, without me you can do nothing. That means nothing at all. So you can't do anything that pleases God without God's grace.

74x12 said:

People misunderstand grace. You say you obey? I respond then in that case who gave you the grace necessary in order to obey?

Who is it that makes a person different than others? And what good thing do they have that they didn't receive from God? Because every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights. And if they did receive it from God; then why do they act like they have it all by themselves? That's how people don't acknowledge the grace(unmerited favor) of God. That's why they can't truly say that works save. The truth is that God saves; not works. (Ephesians 2:9)

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who makes you different? And what do you have that you didn’t receive? But if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?

So in summary people just misunderstand grace. They believe it means they don't do need to do works; but the Bible doesn't say that. The grace of God is what is making people do the works of God. As Jesus said I am the vine you are the branches, without me you can do nothing. That means nothing at all. So you can't do anything that pleases God without God's grace.

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(Titus 2:11,12)

grace of God

Teaching us

that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


This is how grace and law is married together.

This is how grace and works are married together.


Grace never excludes law.

74x12 said:

We can only be saved by grace alone because God gets all the credit.

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Eph 2:5,

Acts 15:11,

Titus 3:5,

Rom 3:28,

I could go on all day long, but I gotta do some other stuff.

God bless

rrobs said:

Eph 2:5,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
​

Acts 15:11,

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
​

Titus 3:5,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
​

Rom 3:28,

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
​

I could go on all day long, but I gotta do some other stuff.

God bless

​

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Taking Possession of What God Gives: A Case Study in Salvation

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

Kyle Butt, M.Div.

(excerpt)

So why, one might ask, if so many passages of Scripture teach the necessity of baptism, is there so much controversy about baptism being a condition of salvation? Several reasons could be mentioned here (e.g., “The thief on the cross was saved, yet not baptized. Thus, we do not have to be baptized to be saved.” For a full refutation of this line of reasoning, see Miller, 2003), but one that is extremely popular (and has been for some time) is the idea that baptism is a “work.”....


....Part of the confusion concerning baptism and works is the result of being uninformed about the biblical teaching regarding works. The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2) works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3) works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24; Luke 17:10; cf. Galatians 5:6). The first three works mentioned here certainly do not lead to eternal life. The last category frequently is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the intent is “works required and approved by God” (Thayer, 1977, p. 248, emp. added; cf. Jackson, 1997, 32:47). Consider the following example from Jesus’ statements in John 6:27-29:


Read more here.

Taking Possession of What God Gives: A Case Study in Salvation

Nova2216 said:

Taking Possession of What God Gives: A Case Study in Salvation

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

Kyle Butt, M.Div.

So why, one might ask, if so many passages of Scripture teach the necessity of baptism, is there so much controversy about baptism being a condition of salvation? Several reasons could be mentioned here (e.g., “The thief on the cross was saved, yet not baptized. Thus, we do not have to be baptized to be saved.” For a full refutation of this line of reasoning, see Miller, 2003), but one that is extremely popular (and has been for some time) is the idea that baptism is a “work.”....

....Part of the confusion concerning baptism and works is the result of being uninformed about the biblical teaching regarding works. The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2) works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3) works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24; Luke 17:10; cf. Galatians 5:6). The first three works mentioned here certainly do not lead to eternal life. The last category frequently is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the intent is “works required and approved by God” (Thayer, 1977, p. 248, emp. added; cf. Jackson, 1997, 32:47). Consider the following example from Jesus’ statements in John 6:27-29:

Read more here.

Taking Possession of What God Gives: A Case Study in Salvation

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Was John the first one to baptize or where the Jews practicing it before John? If before, do you know when? Did it come out of the law God gave Israel in the desert?