Unfortunately my uncle was shot down by this Spaniard named Quixote, over Macho Grande.
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If you were shown irrefutable evidence that heaven or hell did not exist, would that interest you?
- Thread starter ChristineM
- Start date
Nyingjé Tso
Tänpa Yungdrung zhab pä tän gyur jig
Vanakkam
I don't believe in heaven or hell already, so it settles that question
I don't believe in heaven or hell already, so it settles that question
that is the miracle. How an unlettered man can compile such a book telling about facts more than 15 centuries back to come modern science to assert it. This can not be true without Divine revelation.
Finally? What sort of All Knowing God requires.... "testing" if he already knows the answer?
very simple. to have evidence based condemnation.
do you think it is fair at the last day for God to tell some people go to hell because you are destined to fire on my expectation or my prescience? Then the subject can protest: you did not test me to see if I will do good or bad!
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
It cannot be true in reality, either. So there's that problem.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Finally? What sort of All Knowing God requires.... "testing" if he already knows the answer?
very simple. to have evidence based condemnation.
do you think it is fair at the last day for God to tell some people go to hell because you are destined to fire on my expectation or my prescience? Then the subject can protest: you did not test me to see if I will do good or bad!
That's not a reason. That's just a massive bully, toying with it's victims.
An all-knowing creature would never need to stoop so low, as to bully it's victims-- unless it wanted to torture them.
Such a being cannot be good.
syo
Well-Known Member
I'd be curious what kind of afterlife the evidence would show.
That why old polytheist Arabs depicted him as magician, poet, a crazy man, a lier and so on although they nicked named him the honest in the contemporary era before Islam. But how a magician or an unlettered can for example
1) describe the stages of fetus development in the womb
2) have verses in Quran that says (And We built the sky by force and We will expand it) seemingly expanding universe more than 15 centuries back
3) hinting to Big Bang theory (Did not The Unbelievers see that, The skies and earth were one unit and We separated them?)
Big Bang was postulated by western scientists and not by Muslim scientists, hence the question was posed for them. This led a big Church man to convert.
The dxamples are many.
Bob the Unbeliever
Well-Known Member
Nice bit of rewriting what is written there. I've seen the sad attempts to "rewrite" the poorly written and vague statements into what you claim, and, frankly, they are bogus.
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Well, according to scripture, 'hell' is primarily the grave, the pit into which the person who is dead is interred. The word 'hell' is an older English word which means hole, pit. For instance, "I will go helling potatoes." (The word comes from an old Norse or Anglo-Saxon word meaning place of hiding or covering (hence the phrase helling potatoes used in the 17th century for storing potatoes in a pit).), means to go digging (a hole) for potatoes. Or the phrase, 'That place is a real hell-hole.'
Hell and destruction (returning to dust; 2 Kings 13:7; etc) are connected:
Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
The 'bed' of the 'grave' is 'hell', in which the person returns to dust:
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Job_17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
This is seen in several uses throughout:
Isa_14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Eze_31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
'Hell' is also associated with the lowest parts of the earth, or the base of mountains (where earthly fires from the time of the flood, now rage and burn, and which will be seen on the surface in Revelation 20, even as now we see magma flows from such, eruptions of violent explosions from within the earth, so to the rocks, & coal and oil from the time of the flood catch fire through the tremendous friction of landmasses that have depleted their water lubrication to the surface), such as Deuteronomy 32:33; Amos 9:2, etc.
Therefore, it would be real hard to convince me that 'hell', or grave doesn't exist. I can simply walk to any graveyard and point to such physical evidence before me, and you.
And as for "Heaven", the Bible speaks of 3 places called this:
[1] the Sky, Atmosphere of earth in which the birds/fowl fly:
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen_1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Gen_1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
[2] the local 'space' of solar (Sol) system in which exist the local Sol (sun), moon and local stars (planets that reflect the light of the sun)
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
These two "Heavens" anyone would be hard-pressed to convince me that they do not physically exist. Even a blind man, would be able to determine scientifically that they exist.
[3] the place beyond the first Heaven, and beyond the 2nd Heaven, past the Orion belt (scripture speaks of this) to the world where God dwells, which has the third "Heaven", that Paul speaks about having seen in vision:
2Co_12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
This place, called 'paradise' (the Original Heavenly Eden from which the Tree of Life in Genesis came from, and was "planted" (as transplanted to, it does not say created there) on earthly Eden (and God took back just before the Flood in Genesis 6-9 and seen again in Revelation, mentioned in Ezekiel and Isaiah)), would be more difficult to see with the naked eye, or even with the best telescope since it is beyond, far beyond, our local Sol system, yet it would be close to center of the universe as known (and earth is near this as universe distance would go).
It (3rd Heaven) is not an aethereal place, but rather a tangible place as real as earth, as real as the chair you are sitting in, wherein God the Father, a real Person, and the Son, a real person, along with other angelic beings, exist. For instance:
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
[the Father's house is the universe, spread out as a 'tent' (Job 9:8; Isaiah 40:22), which has many 'rooms' or "worlds" in it, see Hebrews 1:2, 11:3; Job 26:7, etc]
Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Luk_15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This Heaven (aka 3rd, really existing before the other two), is just as real as the other two. This is where Jesus went "up" to. A place of gardens, rivers, fruit trees, animals that do not hurt, nor destroy, beings that do not perish or die:
You might enjoy reading, or viewing:
Library Of Sermons 24 – Heaven Is It For Real – Pocket Book – Joe Crews – Amazing Facts (PDF)
Where Do People Go When They Die?
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syo
Well-Known Member
Yes. What happens to the dead?
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Correct, that is what scripture teaches. Mankind returns to dust:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Gen 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
Yes, perhaps the only accurate bit of scripture i know.
Maybe learning about DNA and more specifically telomerase will help
syo
Well-Known Member
I think you mean we are just bodies with no soul, yes?
coconut theology
coconuts for Jesus
Christine, if you will in future, please give me the benefit of the doubt, as to the fields of study I am familiar with, proficient in, or expert at.
DNA is a language upon a molecular level. It is the most sophisticated complex (not simple) 'code' known to mankind in existence. Libraries do not write themselves. 'Working Code', does not arrive by mishap, or accident. Your response did not come about without intelligence and direction, to form letters, those bits of alpha-bet, into recognizable order, to make words and complex structure with verbs, nouns, pronouns, syntax, subject and predicate, etc - all to convey meaning to oneself and perhaps another (myself, or other).