Bible friendly only: Saved by beliefs?

Amanaki said:

I am not going to say how Christians should or should not believe the way they do But in my understanding Believing in itself is not enough to be saved, It is the work on once morality, ethics, and how they raise their wisdom from the teaching and how they cultivate the teaching within their own life that is the factor of how to become saved.
But since I am not a Christian what I say here will only be of my own understanding, and not taken from the Christian teaching

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The way I understand it is that you are saved by faith alone. Ephesians 2:8-9“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God“

However once you have truly claimed Christ there needs to be inward change. Hence, reborn in Him. They inward change must be reflected in our words and actions on the outside. We have a duty to show what we believe in our lives. We must drive for righteousness and become more like Jesus. In Revelations 3:15-16 God says, “
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. “17

I think that may refer to a Christian who wants to ride the fence???

beliefs/faith thru works which complete our faith. unless we are infants in the Faith.

The scriptures are very clear that what is important isn't subscription to the correct beliefs, but rather our actions - how (and why) we choose to do what we do. Do you persist in doing good or evil?

Beliefs are important precisely because they serve to guide our actions. Beliefs that we don't live by are useless & dead, and cannot save (James 2).

Furthermore, if subscription to the correct beliefs were the criteria of salvation - then God would be showing favoritism (and there's no favoritism with God, which is a sin). For would not one born into a believing household have an undeniable advantage over one born into a household that doesn't hold the right beliefs? And would this not again favor the rich - who can afford to give their children proper education - over the poor? Not to mention all of those who lived and died never having heard of God or his people or his Law?

On the other hand, everyone is capable of doing what is good and right - to the best of their ability and understanding.

Jim said:

NOTE: What I mean by “Bible friendly” is that you’re agreeing not to criticize the Bible in this thread, or to criticize people trusting what it says.

I think that people are saved by the grace of God, through faith, but I don’t think that “faith” means endorsing some beliefs about God, about Jesus or about the Bible. I think that it means seeing God in Jesus, with our hearts, then trusting and following Him.

I think that If there’s anything that people need to know, about what to believe or what to do, Jesus is the one who can teach people the best, after they learn to trust and follow Him. Only God can make that happen, but I think He lets us help, as part of our personal relationship with Him. One way I see to do that is learning to be channels for His grace. Another way is by showing Him to people in our lives, in spiritual growth and community service, and telling His story, the way the Bible tells it.

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Yes, I believe also people are saved by grace through faith.

I don't understand your statements: "...but I don't think that 'faith' means endorsing some beliefs about God, about Jesus or about the Bible. I think that it means seeing God in Jesus, with our hearts, then trusting and following Him."

Those appear contradictory to me. Isn't your 2nd statement endorsing beliefs about God and Jesus?

As to who Jesus is does become all important in the Christian faith. Even before His rejection, belief in Him as the Son of God was required. (John 3:16)"...he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

After Jesus rejection as the Messiah, it becomes all the more important. (Matt. 16:13-17) "...he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?....But whom say ye that I am?...Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou , Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

I would say, where does man obtain the authority to speak such things about God? If the record, in this instance the Bible, is not the Word of God, if it is but the good words of men, what authority does it carry? In other words, it makes no sense to believe what Jesus said, unless one believed the Bible is the Word of God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I don't understand your statements: "...but I don't think that 'faith' means endorsing some beliefs about God, about Jesus or about the Bible. I think that it means seeing God in Jesus, with our hearts, then trusting and following Him."

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I mean that I think a person could think that all the Bible stories are pure fiction, and still see God in Jesus, receive the gift of faith, and become a follower of Jesus. I’m saying see God in Jesus. I’m not talking about a person saying to himself and others the words “I believe.” I’m talking about seeing and knowing, with or without words, that He is God. Maybe that would beyond your capacity, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone.

Jim said:

I mean that I think a person could think that all the Bible stories are pure fiction, and still see God in Jesus, receive the gift of faith, and become a follower of Jesus. I’m saying see God in Jesus. I’m not talking about a person saying to himself and others the words “I believe.” I’m talking about seeing and knowing, with or without words, that He is God. Maybe that would beyond your capacity, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone.

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If one believes the story is fiction but can see God in the story, the question remains, how do you know about God to believe the story reflects a truth about God. Where does your information come from that gives you the ability to determine if a story rightly depicts God or not?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

If one believes the story is fiction but can see God in the story, the question remains, how do you know about God to believe the story reflects a truth about God. Where does your information come from that gives you the ability to determine if a story rightly depicts God or not?

Good-Ole-Rebel

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That’s irrelevant to what I’m saying, but I’ll give an example. Some novels have a historical background. Some things in the story actually happened and some didn’t, but that doesn’t matter for what the story does for people and what they can learn from it. Some novels are written in the form of various kinds of historical source documents, for example like encyclopedia entries, journals entries, letters and newspaper articles. Imagine a person thinking of the Bible as a novel like that. In the Old Testament he sees the possibly fictional prophets talking about a creator and sustainer of the world and its people, the God of Abraham, and recognizes that part if the story, from his own experience, as being about the actual creator of himself and the world around him. Then reading the New Testament, he sees that God in the person of the Jesus in the gospel stories. Then God puts into his heart a love and trust in that Jesus, however fictional He may be, that enables him to learn from Him how to live the best life he can.

I don’t see the gift of faith as a person saying to himself and others the words “I believe ...” i see it as an attitude, a heart response to the Jesus in the gospel stories, however fictional a person might think they are. God puts into a person’s heart a love and trust for that Jesus, which is all the love and trust that we can possibly have for God.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

... how do you know about God to believe the story reflects a truth about God. Where does your information come from that gives you the ability to determine if a story rightly depicts God or not?

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From personal experience.

Doesn’t what the Bible says about the God of Abraham, your creator and creator of the world around you, agree with your own experience in life? Maybe it would not be possible for you to see that without believing what you do about the Bible as history, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone. Don’t you see that very same God in Jesus in the gospel stories? Maybe it would not be possible for you to see that without believing what you do about the Bible as history, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone.

Jim said:

That’s irrelevant to what I’m saying, but I’ll give an example. Some novels have a historical background. Some things in the story actually happened and some didn’t, but that doesn’t matter for what the story does for people and what they can learn from it. Some novels are written in the form of various kinds of historical source documents, for example like encyclopedia entries, journals entries, letters and newspaper articles. Imagine a person thinking of the Bible as a novel like that. In the Old Testament he sees the possibly fictional prophets talking about a creator and sustainer of the world and its people, the God of Abraham, and recognizes that part if the story, from his own experience, as being about the actual creator of himself and the world around him. Then reading the New Testament, he sees that God in the person of the Jesus in the gospel stories. Then God puts into his heart a love and trust in that Jesus, however fictional He may be, that enables him to learn from Him how to live the best life he can.

I don’t see the gift of faith as a person saying to himself and others the words “I believe ...” i see it as an attitude, a heart response to the Jesus in the gospel stories, however fictional a person might think they are. God puts into a person’s heart a love and trust for that Jesus, which is all the love and trust that we can possibly have for God.

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I don't believe it is irrelevant. The historical fiction novel has a knowledge of history to write historical fiction. Where did your supposed writer of the supposed fictional stories in the Bible, get his knowledge of God? And where do you the reader of the religious novel, get your knowledge of God to determine what is fiction in the story and what is not?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Jim said:

From personal experience.

Doesn’t what the Bible says about the God of Abraham, your creator and creator of the world around you, agree with your own experience in life? Maybe it would not be possible for you to see that without believing what you do about the Bible as history, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone. Don’t you see that very same God in Jesus in the gospel stories? Maybe it would not be possible for you to see that without believing what you do about the Bible as history, but that doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be possible for anyone.

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Then everyone will have a god of their own making. Of their own experiences.

Well, many times my experience is not what God says in the Bible. I see things as they are to me. God sees them as they are to Him. And, it is His that count. (Rom. 4:18) "...God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Then everyone will have a god of their own making. Of their own experiences.

Well, many times my experience is not what God says in the Bible. I see things as they are to me. God sees them as they are to Him. And, it is His that count. (Rom. 4:18) "...God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I’m not going to argue about it. I’m saying what I think. You can take it or leave it. What I think is that the gift of faith is not a person saying to herself and others the words “I believe.” It’s love and trust in the Jesus of the gospel stories that God puts into a person’s heart, and a willingness and ability to follow Him.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Then everyone will have a god of their own making. Of their own experiences.

Well, many times my experience is not what God says in the Bible. I see things as they are to me. God sees them as they are to Him. And, it is His that count. (Rom. 4:18) "...God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I don’t know what else to say to help you understand what I’m thinking, if that’s what you’re trying to do. What I’m saying might not be anything that matters to you. I’m saying that I think that the faith that the Bible says is a gift of God, not of our own doing, is not a person saying some words to themselves and others about what they believe. It’s a love and trust for the Jesus of the gospel stories, that God puts into a person’s heart, and that love and trust in Jesus is the only belief in God that matters, for salvation, eternal life and entrance into the kingdom, no matter what a person says in words to himself and others about what he believes and doesn’t believe. Also, even if you think that the right kind of trust in Jesus would not be possible for you without believing what you do about the Bible as history, that doesn’t mean that it would not be possible for anyone else.

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

Then everyone will have a god of their own making. Of their own experiences.

Well, many times my experience is not what God says in the Bible. I see things as they are to me. God sees them as they are to Him. And, it is His that count. (Rom. 4:18) "...God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Sorry, there was some unfriendliness in my last two posts to you. Maybe I should tell you more about what all this means to me. I see Jesus talking about salvation, eternal life and the kingdom. I don’t think that I really have any clue of what He’s talking about. Paul says that we are saved by faith, and that is not our own doing, it’s a gift. A gift is not something you can buy or bargain for, not even by saying to yourself and others “I believe.” If any beliefs about history and cosmology are required, they’re a consequence of salvation and not a condition for it. Even if some kind of knowledge is needed for salvation, Jesus is the best teacher.

I think that learning to trust and follow Jesus is the best thing that can happen to anyone. I think that insisting on some ways of thinking, whatever those might be, as requirements for salvation, gets in the way of people learning to do that.

Jim said:

I’m not going to argue about it. I’m saying what I think. You can take it or leave it. What I think is that the gift of faith is not a person saying to herself and others the words “I believe.” It’s love and trust in the Jesus of the gospel stories that God puts into a person’s heart, and a willingness and ability to follow Him.

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And that's fine. That's what I am doing also.

And, your understanding of faith and what it is in is different than mine.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Jim said:

I don’t know what else to say to help you understand what I’m thinking, if that’s what you’re trying to do. What I’m saying might not be anything that matters to you. I’m saying that I think that the faith that the Bible says is a gift of God, not of our own doing, is not a person saying some words to themselves and others about what they believe. It’s a love and trust for the Jesus of the gospel stories, that God puts into a person’s heart, and that love and trust in Jesus is the only belief in God that matters, for salvation, eternal life and entrance into the kingdom, no matter what a person says in words to himself and others about what he believes and doesn’t believe. Also, even if you think that the right kind of trust in Jesus would not be possible for you without believing what you do about the Bible as history, that doesn’t mean that it would not be possible for anyone else.

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I agree faith is from God. It is not just one saying it. It is really having it. I really believe it. But, my faith is not just directed in 'following Jesus' and His teachings. It is directed to the Person of Jesus Christ. Who He is.

Because that is all important, why would I believe the Bible is a historical fictional writing? Especially since it claims to be the Word of God.

In the Christian faith, there are many different testimonies given of how one came to Christ. And they vary from person to person. But the one thing is always there. They accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. They may not have read the Bible but the Lord got to them the truth from the Bible. And they believed. Having believed, and having been born-again, why would they then believe the accounts in the Bible are just fictional?

As I have said before, if the Bible is not the Word of God, what authority does it have? If it is the word of men, why should I trust it? And if the Bible is the Word of God, then what He wrote will not be fictional. I certainly don't understand it all. But it is not fiction.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Jim said:

Sorry, there was some unfriendliness in my last two posts to you. Maybe I should tell you more about what all this means to me. I see Jesus talking about salvation, eternal life and the kingdom. I don’t think that I really have any clue of what He’s talking about. Paul says that we are saved by faith, and that is not our own doing, it’s a gift. A gift is not something you can buy or bargain for, not even by saying to yourself and others “I believe.” If any beliefs about history and cosmology are required, they’re a consequence of salvation and not a condition for it. Even if some kind of knowledge is needed for salvation, Jesus is the best teacher.

I think that learning to trust and follow Jesus is the best thing that can happen to anyone. I think that insisting on some ways of thinking, whatever those might be, as requirements for salvation, gets in the way of people learning to do that.

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That's no problem.

Yes, we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. But one may 'follow' the teachings of Christ yet deny His Person, who He is. In other words, we are not accepting the teachings of Christ. We are accepting Christ as the Son of God and only Saviour.

When Jesus talks of salvation, eternal life, and the Kingdom in the Gospels, the main of His discussions are to Israel and concern the Kingdom He is bringing. The later revelation given to Paul from the risen Jesus Christ, (Acts 9:1-16) (Gal. 1:11-12), mostly concerns the Church at this time.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I agree faith is from God. It is not just one saying it. It is really having it. I really believe it. But, my faith is not just directed in 'following Jesus' and His teachings. It is directed to the Person of Jesus Christ. Who He is.

Because that is all important, why would I believe the Bible is a historical fictional writing? Especially since it claims to be the Word of God.

In the Christian faith, there are many different testimonies given of how one came to Christ. And they vary from person to person. But the one thing is always there. They accepted Christ as their Lord and Saviour. They may not have read the Bible but the Lord got to them the truth from the Bible. And they believed. Having believed, and having been born-again, why would they then believe the accounts in the Bible are just fictional?

As I have said before, if the Bible is not the Word of God, what authority does it have? If it is the word of men, why should I trust it? And if the Bible is the Word of God, then what He wrote will not be fictional. I certainly don't understand it all. But it is not fiction.

Good-Ole-Rebel

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I might have created some confusion by using such an extreme example. Imagine a person who isn’t sure what to think about the Bible as history. He thinks that Jesus might have been a real person, but a lot of what happens in the gospel stories might be fiction. Even so, he sees some wisdom in the words of Jesus, and the stories inspire him and encourage him to try to live like Jesus says to live. That leads eventually to him recognizing Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Do you think that it could ever happen like that?

Jim said:

I might have created some confusion by using such an extreme example. Imagine a person who isn’t sure what to think about the Bible as history. He thinks that Jesus might have been a real person, but a lot of what happens in the gospel stories might be fiction. Even so, he sees some wisdom in the words of Jesus, and the stories inspire him and encourage him to try to live like Jesus says to live. That leads eventually to him recognizing Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Do you think that it could ever happen like that?

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Because accepting Who the Person of Jesus is, is all important, I do not see how it could happen. If one says, well, maybe Jesus really existed, that doesn't result in salvation. If he eventually recognizes that Jesus Christ really did exist and is the Son of God and Saviour and accepts Him as such, then yes, that becomes salvation.

One can go to church for years and not be saved. I have seen people who have been in Church for years come up to be saved confessing they never really accepted Christ. But the point is, prior to that, they were not saved. They really didn't believe it. And to be saved they must come to that faith. Which means he will believe the account of Christ in the Bible as true and historical.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

If he eventually recognizes that Jesus Christ really did exist and is the Son of God and Saviour and accepts Him as such, then yes, that becomes salvation. ... I have seen people who have been in Church for years come up to be saved ... Which means he will believe the account of Christ in the Bible as true and historical.

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That might answer the question that I’m asking now. What I’m asking now doesn’t go as far as what I was asking before. If a person looks up to the person of Jesus in the gospel stories, and tries to live according to His teachings, no matter what she believes or doesn’t believe in the beginning about Jesus and the Bible, what she learns in trying to follow Him that way could be part of what she needs, to be able to believe that the stories are true and to recognize Jesus as her Lord and Savior. Does that seem possible to you?

Jim said:

That might answer the question that I’m asking now. What I’m asking now doesn’t go as far as what I was asking before. If a person looks up to the person of Jesus in the gospel stories, and tries to live according to His teachings, no matter what she believes or doesn’t believe in the beginning about Jesus and the Bible, what she learns in trying to follow Him that way could be part of what she needs, to be able to believe that the stories are true and to recognize Jesus as her Lord and Savior. Does that seem possible to you?

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I don't see why? If one is wanting to follow Jesus's teachings, why wouldn't they believe what Jesus said about the importance of believing on Him to be saved. Why would they ignore (John 3:1-21). What would make one want to follow Jesus teachings and not believe what is said about the need to be born-again by faith in Jesus as the Son of God. Especially when they come from the same source, the Bible.

My point is this: If one wants to follow Jesus teachings but deny Who He is, then they are not saved. If one has been following Jesus teachings and has denied Jesus Christ as to Who He is, but later believes on Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour, then they are saved.

You seem to want to give some validity to following Jesus teachings while rejecting Who He is. I am not going to do that. That is almost akin to getting a vaccine. You get enough to keep you from the real thing. I think it is a dangerous route.

Good-Ole-Rebel