Bible friendly only: Saved by beliefs?

[Jim]

You seem to want to give some validity to following Jesus teachings while rejecting Who He is. I am not going to do that. That is almost akin to getting a vaccine. You get enough to keep you from the real thing. I think it is a dangerous route.

Yes, I can see the danger in that, a false gospel. In fact, I think that is largely what has happened. False gospels substituting in the place of the real thing.

I was trying to find something to say that you would agree with, but now it will be just to see if I can explain what I’m thinking well enough for a person to understand it who believes in the Bible as history in the same way you do.

With people who don’t believe in the Bible as history in the same way you do, or who have doubts about it, one of the ways that they might learn to believe in it and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior might be from their experience in trying to understand and practice what He says about how to live our lives. I see the danger that you’re pointing out of people substituting Jesus as a spiritual teacher in the place of the true gospel, but even so, it might not always be that for everyone. Sometimes following Jesus as a spiritual teacher might lead them to the true gospel. I know that we’re disagreeing about what the true gospel is, but whatever it is, sometimes following Jesus as a spiritual teacher might lead a person to it.

For information, even though we disagree about what the true gospel is, I think that any gospel without God in Jesus at its heart and center is not the gospel of Jesus.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Yes, I can see the danger in that, a false gospel. In fact, I think that is largely what has happened. False gospels substituting in the place of the real thing.

I was trying to find something to say that you would agree with, but now it will be just to see if I can explain what I’m thinking well enough for a person to understand it who believes in the Bible as history in the same way you do.

With people who don’t believe in the Bible as history in the same way you do, or who have doubts about it, one of the ways that they might learn to believe in it and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior might be from their experience in trying to understand and practice what He says about how to live our lives. I see the danger that you’re pointing out of people substituting Jesus as a spiritual teacher in the place of the true gospel, but even so, it might not always be that for everyone. Sometimes following Jesus as a spiritual teacher might lead them to the true gospel. I know that we’re disagreeing about what the true gospel is, but whatever it is, sometimes following Jesus as a spiritual teacher might lead a person to it.

For information, even though we disagree about what the true gospel is, I think that any gospel without God in Jesus at its heart and center is not the gospel of Jesus.

I understand what you're saying. As I have said, many and varied are the routes people go to come to Christ. And if one did come by the way you describe, I would say praise God.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Jim]

I’ll post some things here that I would like people to know about my feelings about Jesus and the Bible. I’m not sure that everything in the Bible is true, but I don’t try to sort out what’s true and what isn’t. I just try to understand how it all fits together, with itself and with Baha’i scriptures. I don’t reject anything in the Bible as being false, but I don’t take it all literally.

I don’t think of Jesus as being the Son of God in any physical way. In the context of Bible stories I think that He is the One that God promised to David, saying “I will be his father and he will be my son.” I don’t think of Jesus as being God in any physical way. I think that the only personal relationship we can have with God is in a personal relationship with Jesus, I think that all the love we can have for God is in loving Jesus. I think that Jesus is God in every way that’s possible for a human being to be God, which I don’t think is true of anyone else besides the ones that Baha’u’llah calls “Manifestations of God.” I think that Jesus plays a unique role in salvation, and stands above all the other manifestations in some ways that might correspond to what Christians think of Him. One example of that is Bahá’u’lláh saying specifically of Jesus that He is the one who purified the world. Another example is the Quran saying specifically about Jesus that God gave Him clear signs and strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus calls His gospel “the gospel of the kingdom,” which I think includes all of His parables about it. I think that it also includes Himself as the way to that kingdom and the Lord of it.

 

[Ebionite]

I think that people are saved by the grace of God, through faith, but I don’t think that “faith” means endorsing some beliefs about God, about Jesus or about the Bible. I think that it means seeing God in Jesus, with our hearts, then trusting and following Him.

That seems to be inconsistent. Either Jesus is essential to salvation or he isn't.

 

[Hawkins]

NOTE: What I mean by “Bible friendly” is that you’re agreeing not to criticize the Bible in this thread, or to criticize people trusting what it says.

I think that people are saved by the grace of God, through faith, but I don’t think that “faith” means endorsing some beliefs about God, about Jesus or about the Bible. I think that it means seeing God in Jesus, with our hearts, then trusting and following Him.

I think that If there’s anything that people need to know, about what to believe or what to do, Jesus is the one who can teach people the best, after they learn to trust and follow Him. Only God can make that happen, but I think He lets us help, as part of our personal relationship with Him. One way I see to do that is learning to be channels for His grace. Another way is by showing Him to people in our lives, in spiritual growth and community service, and telling His story, the way the Bible tells it.

Faith is defined in the New Covenant in terms of how humans are to be saved. Unlike Law we humans can't 100% assess one's faith. I can't tell that human A for sure has a stronger faith than human B. That's why Law is rather a rigid clear cut type of judgment. What Jesus won is rather a subjective judgment by Jesus Christ Himself who is capable of judging hearts. Thus Jesus can judge precisely who is qualified by faith as specified in the New Covenant.

That said what human can do is to best follow what is said in the Bible, and leave the rest to the hands of God and Jesus Christ. As the Bible said, in the end God/Jesus will be able save whoever deemed as His sheep from before the creation of this universe.

 

[Jim]

That seems to be inconsistent. Either Jesus is essential to salvation or he isn't.

Jesus is essential to salvation. Having a belief that he is, is not.

 

[Ebionite]

Jesus is essential to salvation. Having a belief that he is, is not.

Jesus endorsed Isaiah by quoting from his book.

I, even I, am YHWH; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 43:11

 

[cataway]

saved ?? saved from what ?