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Is progressive revelation believable?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I don’t believe you have a hateful agenda and have never read any Baha’i make such an accusation. OTOH in the 3 years I’ve been on this forum I have read literally hundreds of posts from you critical of the Baha’i Faith. I haven’t seen that many posts from you criticising Islam or Christianity so do wonder why? You are not the only one on this forum who ‘appears’ to have a particular interest or preoccupation in the Baha’i Faith. Most people who come across a religion they disagree don’t even bother to say anything. Not that it worries me for one moment as I genuinely like you and enjoy talking to you. I imagine the other Baha’is feel the same way. But it does mystify me somewhat.

Baha'is are the only ones on this forum that have said anything at all about Hinduism, at least that caught my eye. Hinduism is a rare topic on these forums, as there are so few of us here. For me, it's really just a case study, and I do enjoy getting the answers as it increases my ability to understand a certain mindset. If a Christian or Muslim said as much, I'm sure I'd be right in there attempting to correct them.

I understand why some other folks have what seems to be an interest in your faith. One was married into it, and another is an ex. So yes, that makes sense.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Not logical to me. To me, that's like saying one particular proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is the right one. In truth, there are many.
Likewise, it makes logical sense that not only one religion is the right one.
In truth, there are many right ones.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Another 'bump' for the Seven Valleys.

It is a gorgeously written text, in the style of the great Sufi Persian epics like Attar's Conference of the Birds and Rumi's Masnavi.

I read it many years ago and found it aesthetically beautiful, as well as rich in imagery and mysticism.

Baha'u'llah knew his Persian literature and could write with erudition, that's for sure.
Oh yes.... he quoted Jallaladin a few times so he was following a similar 'way' to the other verses that you mentioned.

But agreed on the theocracy / divine law / government side of the equation. That's also my biggest issue with Baha'i theology............................................................................ I'd be curious to know Islamic thoughts on it, as I imagine they might be fairly positive as to its style and tone in light of the importance of the shariah to Islam).
Islam, certainly Shia Islam, does not show very much happiness about anything to do with Bahai. Bahai is seen as an apostate and treasonous, imo.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I understand why some other folks have what seems to be an interest in your faith. One was married into it, and another is an ex. So yes, that makes sense.

A number of the Baha'i posters on this forum (but not our very own @adrian009 I regret to say, who would have been a great asset) used to frequent a Catholic forum I was a member of (which had an interfaith / non-Catholic religions sub-forum).

So, over the years, I've become very familiar with Baha'i beliefs myself - much like yourself.

I will admit, though, that while most of the Baha'is were very well-mannered and friendly there were some issues that led to moderation getting involved on the Catholic forum (i.e. deemed proselytism as defined by the rules of that forum, on the part of a few).

But the upshot, is that I've become interested in discussing theology with Baha'is as a result and I've learned a lot, generally speaking, from those discussions.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Baha'is are the only ones on this forum that have said anything at all about Hinduism, at least that caught my eye. Hinduism is a rare topic on these forums, as there are so few of us here. For me, it's really just a case study, and I do enjoy getting the answers as it increases my ability to understand a certain mindset. If a Christian or Muslim said as much, I'm sure I'd be right in there attempting to correct them.

I understand why some other folks have what seems to be an interest in your faith. One was married into it, and another is an ex. So yes, that makes sense.

I know OB was married to a Baha’i. Whose the ex-Bahá’i?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I know OB was married to a Baha’i. Whose the ex-Bahá’i?
Didymus, but perhaps not. Maybe he just associated with a lot of Baha'is back when. Trust me, you guys are really lucky not to have some of the ex-Baha'is over here!
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
A number of the Baha'i posters on this forum (but not our very own @adrian009 I regret to say, who would have been a great asset) used to frequent a Catholic forum I was a member of (which had an interfaith / non-Catholic religions sub-forum).

So, over the years, I've become very familiar with Baha'i beliefs myself - much like yourself.

I will admit, though, that while most of the Baha'is were very well-mannered and friendly there were some issues that led to moderation getting involved on the Catholic forum (i.e. deemed proselytism as defined by the rules of that forum, on the part of a few).

But the upshot, is that I've become interested in discussing theology with Baha'is as a result and I've learned a lot, generally speaking, from those discussions.

Makes total sense. Personally, I don't think moderation is tough enough here on the proselytising, but I go with the decisions of the mods on it. One vote against many isn't much.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Didymus, but perhaps not. Maybe he just associated with a lot of Baha'is back when. Trust me, you guys are really lucky not to have some of the ex-Baha'is over here!
Didymus has never been a Baha’i to my knowledge but has spent a lot of time, especially in his younger days, hanging out with the Baha’is. I know a few years ago when we first met he was attending Bahá’í firesides. George-Ananda is an ex-Bahá’i on this forum but remains positive about his former faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Another 'bump' for the Seven Valleys.

It is a gorgeously written text, in the style of the great Sufi Persian epics like Attar's Conference of the Birds and Rumi's Masnavi.

I read it many years ago and found it aesthetically beautiful, as well as rich in imagery and mysticism.

Baha'u'llah knew his Persian literature and could write with erudition, that's for sure.

But agreed on the theocracy / divine law / government side of the equation. That's also my biggest issue with Baha'i theology.

Unsurprisingly, coming at the Baha'i scriptures from a Christian perspective, I found the Valleys, Iqan and Hidden Words very pleasing but the "divine law" book, the Aqdas less so (its a much more Islamic Hadith / Jewish Deuteronomy style-text, in its law-giving nature. I'd be curious to know Islamic thoughts on it, as I imagine they might be fairly positive as to its style and tone in light of the importance of the shariah to Islam).
I know I said I was leaving this thread, but I changed my mind.... You know, women are allowed to do that. ;)
I have been unable to keep up with you and Adrian, your long posts, but now that I have a little time I might go back and read some of those...

A little about me: My mother was raised Greek Orthodox and my father was raised in the Anglican Church, but both my parents dropped out of Christianity before their three children were born so I never saw the inside of a Church or a Bible in the house and I cannot recall either one of them talking about God.

I think my mother retained her belief in God but my father became an atheist. In my first year of college I found out about the Baha'i Faith from my older brother and both my sister and I became Baha'is. Five years later my mother became a Baha'i, so that was the whole family, because my dad died before he ever heard of the Baha'i Faith.

Nobody believes me but this is the truth. I never read one page of the Bible until I came to forums about seven years ago when I was 60 years old. I had no reason to read it because until recently I did not know its connection to the Baha'i Faith. By contrast, my brother had read the Bible five times before he became a Baha'i.

I had a lot of catching up to do and most of what I have learned about Christianity and the Bible I learned from discussions on other forums I was on before I came here two years ago, and from looking up so many Bible verses online, but I never read the Bible in its entirety. Most of the Christians I posted to were Protestants, I cannot recall any Catholics on those forums. There was one forum I posted on called The Holy Trinity but the owner considered Catholicism a heresy. Go figure.

So the reason I do not get very involved in discussions about Christianity or Judaism is because I do not know enough about the Bible to have a discussion like you have with Adrian.

On another note, I have been a Baha'i for 49 years and my husband has been a Baha'i for 54 years. My husband was raised as a Protestant but it never took because his childhood experiences led him to believe that Protestants were hypocrites. After he left home and went into the Army he wanted to be a Catholic. One reason he became a Baha'i was because he could not believe in certain Church doctrines but he always held Catholicism in high regard. He also told me that the Baha'i Faith made sense out of Christianity for him. One thing he liked about Catholicism is its mystical approach to God and that good works are emphasized, which is of course similar to the Baha'i Faith.

Since I was not raised in any religion, I always had a problem being connected to God, even after I became a Baha'i, so that is probably the reason I like Christian music so much... It helps me be connected to God and gives me hope that God really cares, because that has definitely been a problem for me.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Another 'bump' for the Seven Valleys.

It is a gorgeously written text, in the style of the great Sufi Persian epics like Attar's Conference of the Birds and Rumi's Masnavi.

I read it many years ago and found it aesthetically beautiful, as well as rich in imagery and mysticism.

Baha'u'llah knew his Persian literature and could write with erudition, that's for sure.

But agreed on the theocracy / divine law / government side of the equation. That's also my biggest issue with Baha'i theology.

Unsurprisingly, coming at the Baha'i scriptures from a Christian perspective, I found the Valleys, Iqan and Hidden Words very pleasing but the "divine law" book, the Aqdas less so (its a much more Islamic Hadith / Jewish Deuteronomy style-text, in its law-giving nature. I'd be curious to know Islamic thoughts on it, as I imagine they might be fairly positive as to its style and tone in light of the importance of the shariah to Islam).

Interesting observation about the Kitab-i-Aqdas. Some of my favourite verses from Bahá’u’lláh’s writings are in this book though not necessarily the ones that spell out a particular law. I find the Sharia and Mosaic law beautiful but completely unsuited to our modern age. Many of the Aqdas laws are for Baha’is only of course and others that would apply to civil law are already part of the legislation in many countries to some degree.

You had discussed natural law in another post and that is the decision making for most Assembly’s anyhow. Having served on a Local Spiritual Assembly for the last twenty years, we have never consulted the Kitab-I-Aqdas. Being acquainted with the writings and interpretations of Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi as well as the elaborations of the Universal House of Justice are helpful and sometimes we do some research to find guidance.

Is there any Baha’i laws that strikes you as being particularly archaic?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good to see you withdrew your insinuation. Thanks.

I personally do not see any person as or with evil intent I see all things exist because of the good.

So my thought is that evil becomes manifest in our choices, what we choose and we think is good, is weighed against the purity of intent.
And Baha'is don't express prejudice in repeatedly saying their faith is the ONE for this age?

(I think everyone feels that their own religion is the right one for them, and can generally explain why that religion makes more sense to them than any other. Merely pointing out differences isn't hatred though. It's not some hate-filled agenda, as I've been accused of.)

I see one should never pick a Faith because they think it is right for them. Faith is in fact a journey of self and if they pick a Faith to find Truth, they will be challenged at every door and most likely soon give up if it does not fit what they want.

In this age I see Faith is what is the best for the world. Faith has gone through building self, communities, cites and nations. In this day Faith needs to build a unity of the entire planet.

Only the future will prove if this constant call for unity, is what we did need.

Regards Tony
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
So my thought is that evil becomes manifest in our choices, what we choose we think is good is weight against the purity

Regards Tony

I was reflecting on this idea of 'choices' that you keep bringing up, and I realised it's never a 'choice' for me, any more than a person can choose the colour of their eyes. I read something, the mind sees it as illogical, or logical, and you just go from there. We solve a math problem, we come to a conclusion about the best driving route between 2 places, etc. It's not really a choice at all. I don't choose to see your faith as illogical. I just do see it as illogical. I couldn't go back and make a different choice. When the faith says things like the importance of gender equality, but at the same time women can't sit on the UHJ, I didn't choose to see that as illogical. It just is illogical. It's a logical contradiction. Baha'i adherents have come to accept it as part of their faith, but I simply can't.

I didn't choose to be a Hindu. I don't think you chose to be a Baha'i either. It happened upon you, and it made sense for you. We can't choose the way we think.

Yes, I can choose to enter a 'debate' or not. But that's not the same thing.
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Some people ask why is there multiple religions in the world, which God is true the christians God or the Islamic Allah?

But what if I told you that divine revelation is progressive.

That Prophets / Messengers known as Manifestations of God has been sent in every age in human history and evolution to guide humanity in the right spiritual path, that the holy Bible and holy Qur'an was divine education that was suited for the time and age in which it was revealed in. And that we have a current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation of God, and current divine scriptures / education for this time and age that we live in right now.

Edit: I've noticed that some people is addressing the "truth is not absolute but relative" statement that I made. So let me put it this way: some truths are not absolute and some truths are relative. It depends what truths are being talked about.


Are you going to tell those people with all those holy books that they do not have all the answers?? They aren't listening. They are telling.

How about this: Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. Clearly there is much left to Discover.

Let's look at an true Action of God. God doesn't give us knowledge. WE have to Discover it. On the other hand, the knowledge lives all around us waiting for us to Discover it. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how?

In this time based causal universe, God's actions can be seen. One doesn't need holy books written by mankind nor so called prophets or messengers. It stares us all in the face.

Everybody wants to rule the world. All those religious people can argue and fight insisting they have all the answers, but, in truth, they are learning lessons they do not realize they are learning. Carry on. There will be peace when you are done.

Yes, That's what I am seeing.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Baha'is are the only ones on this forum that have said anything at all about Hinduism, at least that caught my eye. Hinduism is a rare topic on these forums, as there are so few of us here. For me, it's really just a case study, and I do enjoy getting the answers as it increases my ability to understand a certain mindset. If a Christian or Muslim said as much, I'm sure I'd be right in there attempting to correct them.

As we’ve discussed previously, having a faith that acknowledges the spiritual light from Hinduism and Buddhism was very important when I moved beyond Christianity. Of the Abrahamic Faiths, the Baha’i Faith certainly does that in making Krishna and Buddha equal to Jesus and acknowledging the Divine origins of Hinduism and Buddhism.

The Ahmadiyya Muslims will also see the Divine origins of Buddhism and Hinduism but then becomes abrogated and obsolete as the Quran is the last and final Revelation from God for all time. They follow in the footsteps of other Muslims and toss away the Hebrew Bible and Nee Testament. It would be interesting to hear how Catholicism views Hinduism @Vouthon as an alternative universal faith.

There are of course more universal branches of Hinduism that embrace the Abrahamic Faiths to varying degrees.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tony. We are safe from any clouds of Theocratic Bahai in the present day.

We discuss Bahai as it hopes to become.

Your post, above, looks as if a Death Penalty on the Statute books is ok, really. True?

I ask what do you know of what Baha'i hopes to come?

There is only sun in our unity, there are no clouds. I can honestly say that nothing you have offered to date resonates with my heart and what I have come to know of the purpose that Baha'u'llah has offered, to which I pour out my heart to you, only to get the same responses.

I understand why your are reluctant to see what Baha'u'llah offered, as it requires complete submission for it to work. In my 35 year journey to date, it is not a lesson easily learned and I have lost everything I once held dear, a couple of times now. Life took an amazing twist a few years back and that enabled me to consider what it is was to be a world citizen and actually claim to have Faith.

I see no issue having the death penalty on the book, what is also on the book is being able to choose a prison sentence, or other options. How can then speculate what it might be, justice and compassion and mercy are all important in any decision. I do not know what will happen tomorrow, but I can say in my frame of reference that if I was responsible for the death of another, I would ask not to be here and give all I could to the Love ones left behind.

It would be a good exercise to read what comes from the Universal House of Justice, on all issues of conflict in the world today. You will find it difficult to find more balanced and compassionate replies, to which is would be the foundation of any future Baha'i Local and National Houses of Justice where both men and Women will share the responsibilities.

Regards Tony
 
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