CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Thanks. I'll check them out Sunday and get back to you with some comments.
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What will the Second Coming of Christ look like?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
Basically we Baha’is don’t know what’s going to happen and when. All we know for certain is that the Promised One that all religions are awaiting has come and that the longer the remedy of the Divine Physician is not administered, the more sick the patient will become.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There are no prophecies specifying WHEN it is going to occur. If there were any such prophecies, I am sure that a Jew or Christian would have provided them by now.
“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119
The Divine Standard was raised by Baha'u'llah, so on that day they will turn to Baha'u'llah.
They waited but they did not watch. That day has already come and gone.
They are waiting for NOTHING because Jesus is not coming back, EVER. I guess they have reading comprehension problems:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Are you even reading the verse that I quoted? Isaiah 2:4 makes it very clear that during his reign, nation shall not rise up against nation. That's world peace. That didn't happen for any of the messianic candidates thus far.
This is not a messianic prophecy. The names given to the child denote characteristics of God, And his name shall be called "A wonderful counselor is the mighty God," "the everlasting Father is the Prince of Peace." All Jewish names mean something, and it is very common for them to mean something about God. There is no way, for example, that the Messiah is the Father.
The events in this prophecy will take place over time, "from now and to eternity," not all at once, or all during the lifetime of the Messiah. The Lord of Hosts will accomplish this on David's throne. That means that the Messiah cannot be David.
What are you talking about? I cant do anything except during my lifetime. Neither can the messiah. This objection of my over the irrationality of your comment is true both of the times you said it. And basically none of the messianic candidates have judged between the nations.
It does not state "some" of the Jews. Therefore we must assume it means all or virtually all.
I gave you many verses. I gave you a passage that states a branch of David will rule again. In other verses, he is simply refered to as David. What does "David" mean? To rule from Jerusalem over Israel. Any messianic candidates do that yet?
Jeremiah 30:8-9 has NOT been fulfilled. It was a prophecy of the future, and hasn't happened. When do you think it was fulfilled? Who do you think fulfilled it and how did they fulfill it? Certainly Jesus did not fulfill it. Not only was he not descended from David paternally, he never ruled as King of Israel. Further, there are many times that Israel has been under the thumb and persecuted since Jesus day. Indeed, Jesus didn't even deliver Israel from the Romans.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
What they don't understand is that it ruins their credibility. Whether a prophecy is fulfilled is a yes/no question. It is or isn't.
Such has been the way since God has given man choice. That accusation echoes throughout time.
Many prophecies fulfilled and rejected. We choose our own frames of reference.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
You'd think. But look at Christianity. When I checked out the "fulfilled" prophecies in Matthew, I ended up agreeing with the Jews. They weren't prophecies. If they were they weren't about the Messiah. And all of them had no regard for the context. Like finding a verse that made the killing of the baby boys in Bethlehem a fulfilled prophecy. Then I found out that there is no proof the event even occured. So possibly, a made up prophecy about a made up event? Then "out of Egypt I called my son"? Only in Matthew did Jesus and the family go to Egypt. Luke has them going to Jerusalem and on to Nazareth. He will be called a Nazarene? Instead, the verse is talking about a Nazirite vow? Then the virgin birth... none of the context has anything to do with Jesus. Yet, Christianity took over the world. And who cares how they manipulated verses to make them into prophecies.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This prophecy does not say anything will happen “during his reign.” Moreover, the prophecy says nothing about a reign, because there is no reason to think the Messiah would reign like an earthly king reigns. A reign is the period during which a sovereign rules, and in the case of a Messiah who is a Manifestation of God, His reign is from the time He declares His Mission until the next Manifestation of God comes and declares His Mission; also referred to as a religious dispensation.
Isaiah 2:4 says what the Messiah will do (he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people) and then it says what will happen as a result of what he does (they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.) Clearly “they” refers to the people who will cause this prophecy to be fulfilled as the result of the Messiah and what he revealed. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more as the result of what was revealed by the Messiah. Nowhere in any prophecy does it say that the Messiah will put an end to war himself during his lifetime, he just instigated the process.
Moreover, this prophecy does not say WHEN the second part of this prophecy will be fulfilled.
Says who?
I hope you understand no Christian would agree with your interpretation, so what makes you right and all the Christians wrong? Your interpretation centers around Judaism and Jewish beliefs; and the Christian interpretation centers around their belief in Jesus as the Messiah; and the Baha’i interpretation centers around our belief in Baha’u’llah.
Beliefs aside, let’s look at what the prophecy actually says. Note that I did not post the Christianized translation of the Hebrew, as I have been down this road before.
A child was born, and authority was given to him. The wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace.” The prince of peace cannot be God because God the Father called that child the prince of peace.
The Messiah is not the Father. The Messiah is the Lord of Hosts, a title which is given to the Messiah who represents the Father on earth.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people:
Bahaullah did this during His lifetime, so He fulfilled the prophecy. He judged among the nations and rebuked many people in His Writings, and in His Writings He laid out plans for us to follow so that the rest of the prophecy could be fulfilled by those who followed His instructions…. As a result of what Baha’u’llah wrote…. they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Baha’u’llah did judge between nations in His Writings. How else do you think He would do it, by traveling around the world talking to the leader of every nation? And what good would that do, because that leader would not remain in power forever, so then what would happen after that?
By virtue of the Writings of Baha’u’llah, the following problems will be resolved during the Messianic Age.
Isaiah 2:4 (MSG) He'll settle things fairly between nations. He'll make things right between many peoples. They'll turn their swords into shovels, their spears into hoes. No more will nation fight nation; they won't play war anymore.
Isaiah 2:4 (NIRV) He will judge between the nations. He'll settle problems among many of them. They will hammer their swords into plows. They'll hammer their spears into pruning tools. Nations will not go to war against one another. They won't even train to fight anymore.
Isaiah 2:4 (NLT) The LORD will mediate between nations and will settle international disputes. They will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer fight against nation, nor train for war anymore.
Isaiah 2:4 (NCV) He will settle arguments among the nations and will make decisions for many nations. Then they will make their swords into plows and their spears into hooks for trimming trees. Nations will no longer fight other nations, nor will they train for war anymore.
Isaiah 2:4 (CJB) He will judge between the nations and arbitrate for many peoples. Then they will hammer their swords into plow-blades and their spears into pruning-knives; nations will not raise swords at each other, and they will no longer learn war.
But they cannot be resolved until more people recognize Baha’u’llah and follow His counsels.
“My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286
(Continued on next post)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, we cannot assume it means all or virtually all because it does not say all or virtually all.
Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
The scattered people of Judah have already been given eligibility to return to Israel. Nowhere in that prophecy does it say ALL the Jews in the world will return to Israel.
As of 2018, the world's Core Jewish Population, those identifying as Jews above all else, was 14.6 million. The Connected Jewish Population, including those who say they are partly Jewish or that have Jewish background from at least one Jewish parent, in addition to the Core Jewish Population, was 17.8 million. The Enlarged Jewish Population, including those who say they have Jewish background but not a Jewish parent, and all non-Jewish household members who live in households with Jews, in addition to the Jewish Connected Population, was 20.7 million. And the Law of Return Jewish Population, which counts all those eligible to immigration to Israel under its Law of Return, 23.5 million.[1][2][3][4][5]
Two countries, the United States (51%), and Israel (30%), including the West Bank (2%), account for 81% of those recognised as Jews and eligible for citizenship by Israel under its Law of Return. France (3%), Canada (3%), Russia (3%), United Kingdom (2%), Argentina (1%), Germany (1%), Ukraine (1%), Brazil (1%), Australia (1%) and Hungary (1%) hold an additional 16%, and the remaining 3% are spread around 98 other countries and territories with less than 0.5% each. With nearly 6.5 million Jews,[6] Israel is the only Jewish majority and explicitly Jewish state.
Jewish population by country - Wikipedia
Do you really think that all the Jews in the United States, half of all the Jews in the world, are going to move to Israel? Where would that many people live?
Is Israel densely populated?
Israel Area and Population Density
Israel is one of the most densely populated countries in developed world and has an estimated population of 8.7 in 2017, which ranks 101st in the world population. Aug 28, 2019
Israel Population 2019 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)
Israel Area and Population Density
Israel is one of the most densely populated countries in developed world and has an estimated population of 8.7 in 2017, which ranks 101st in the world population. Aug 28, 2019
Israel Population 2019 (Demographics, Maps, Graphs)
A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the Lord—
3 and he will delight in the fear of the Lord. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears; 4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.
A shoot coming up from the stump of Jesse does not mean David. A branch of David is ruling again.
1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh
"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.
"The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)
12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH
Genealogy of Bahaullah Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh
Jeremiah 23:5
The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.
Nowhere in those verses does it say David means to rule from Jerusalem over Israel. Do you have some other verses that say that David means to rule from Jerusalem over Israel?
That is what it means TO YOU and other perhaps other Jews, but that is not what it means to anyone else and that is not what any verses actually say.
No, that has not been fulfilled yet.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But if the prophecy has no time frame on it, it has no time frame on it. If you ADD a time frame to a prophecy then you are just projecting your own beliefs onto that prophecy…. What YOU believe that prophecy means.
No, it is not yes/no, because it is ALL a matter of how the prophecy is interpreted….
Do you even understand that nobody interprets these prophecies the same way? If everyone interpreted them the same way, then all Christians and Jews would be in complete agreement. This is logic 101 stuff.
So when you say it is a yes/no all you are saying is that it had better be fulfilled *the way I interpret it* or else it has not been fulfilled because I alone know what the prophecy means.
Considering Isaiah 2:3 says 'out of Zion' (מציון) or 'from Zion shall go my Law'.
Isaiah 52:10 states Yeshua Elohim, and in Isaiah 52:7 it states King Zion Elohim (Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12).
Baha'u'llah prophesied the one to come has the name of the City:
"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name (Zion), the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)
Literally the Word of the Lord is a Fire.
We're inside a simulated reality on Clouds, Speaking on Lightning in the Sky.
Arguing over when the Messiah comes, when he sits here saying please lets discuss theology is silly.
In my opinion.
Isaiah 52:10 states Yeshua Elohim, and in Isaiah 52:7 it states King Zion Elohim (Psalms 146:10, Psalms 147:12).
Baha'u'llah prophesied the one to come has the name of the City:
"How great the blessedness that awaiteth the king who will arise to aid My Cause in My kingdom, who will detach himself from all else but Me! Such a king is numbered with the companions of the Crimson Ark--the Ark which God hath prepared for the people of Bahá. All must glorify his name, must reverence his station, and aid him to unlock the cities with the keys of My Name (Zion), the omnipotent Protector of all that inhabit the visible and invisible kingdoms. Such a king is the very eye of mankind, the luminous ornament on the brow of creation, the fountainhead of blessings unto the whole world. Offer up, O people of Bahá, your substance, nay your very lives, for his assistance." - (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)
If you all just listen we can create world peace between us?
Literally the Word of the Lord is a Fire.
We're inside a simulated reality on Clouds, Speaking on Lightning in the Sky.
Arguing over when the Messiah comes, when he sits here saying please lets discuss theology is silly.
In my opinion.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So that quote is for real? It came from Shoghi Effendi? Since in 1954 the threat of a nuclear war was very well possible. Do Baha'is still believe those words?
They have to, don't they?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There ya go. It drives me nuts the way the gospels take verses out of context, not to mention mistranslate, change the wording, and even in one case make up a non-existent verse. Basically fabricate so-called prophecies.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Here's from your link:
"You have asked about the meaning of the "four beasts" referred to in Revelations, Ch. 4. ‘Abdu'l-Bahá in a Tablet has given an explanation for the reference to the "beast" mentioned in Revelations 13:18, saying that the numerical value given to the beast in that passage referred to the date of the year, i.e. 666 A.D., when the Umayyad ruler arose. This is obviously a reference to Mu'áwíyih, the Umayyad Caliph who opposed the Imamate. He speaks further on this subject in "Some Answered Questions", Chapter XI." (1 August 1978)
We've been through this before. This Umayyad leader was not the beast associated with the mark or number 666. This leader or all the Umayyad leaders combined did not have power for 1260 years. And, since they started in 661AD, they didn't go from 621AD to 1844. But then in your link, it doesn't say 621AD for the first Umayyad leader, it says 666AD. What's that about? Anyway, here's the verses from Revelation:
Revelation 13:15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
So from these verses, how do you justify making 666 a date? But... there is another problem.16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,
17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.
Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Some manuscripts don’t read the number 666 at all but instead they read 616. In fact, the oldest extant manuscript containing Rev. 13:18 is a papyrus fragment called P115. This fragment reads 616 as the number of the beast, and if you wish to, you can see an image of this fragment for yourself by searching “P115” on Wikipedia.
So what will the Second coming look like? A jumbled mess of supposed "fulfilled" prophecies.
No one, repeat no one Has to beleive in anything, or God. That is plain and simple.
That quote posted is from a pilgrim note of a table talk by Shoghi Effendi and not official. A lot of those table talks were given in the passion of the time of recent nuclear events.
Yes there is a calamity pending, but it is not known what it will be and Shoghi Effendi has said that in the Official Writings.
To the world collectively, Baha'u'llah offered this;
"O Ye Peoples of the World! Know verily that an unforeseen calamity is following you and that grievous retribution awaiteth you." Bahá’u’lláh, Hidden Words, Persian 63
It is of our own making because we have failed to implement unity, unity would have given us a mind and spirit that would have prevented such a calamity.
This is what is officially offered about that Pilgrim Note;
"..... He has been told that some of the friends are disturbed over reports brought back by the pilgrims concerning the dangers facing America in the future whenever another world conflagration breaks out.
He does not feel that the Bahá’ís should waste time dwelling on the dark side of things. Any intelligent person can understand from the experiences of the last world war, and keeping abreast of what modern science has developed in the way of weapons for any future war, that big cities all over the world are going to be in tremendous danger. This is what the Guardian has said to the pilgrims.... "
This link has some Official quotes on Calamity. Calamity | Bahá’í Quotes
There is no doubt for me, given the prediction of science on Global Warming, that the cities are doomed. Most on the coast,many built on sand.
There is a lot written on this, the world of a not too distant future, is vastly different of todays world and such rampant predudices and disunity.
Regards Tony
I was referring to Baha'is, Tony, not the general public. So you're now saying that Baha'is don't even have to believe in Baha'u'llah?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The Baha'is can still answer "yes or no", and then explain why they believe it is or isn't fulfilled. So for them peace on earth is in the "process" of being fulfilled. So that would be a "no", that prophecy is not fulfilled yet.
Okay, check out the "prophecies" in Matthew. Do you believe they are real prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus? With no weird things going on by Matthew to take a few verses here and there that he could make into prophecies?
I would add that this quote also tells you that Baha'i are part of that process, that none of us is more worthy than another. What sets us apart are our actions that promote a greater unity, a unity of all mankind;
".. In such a process of purgation, when all humanity is in the throes of dire suffering, the Bahá’ís should not hope to remain unaffected. Should we consider the beam that is in our own eye, we would immediately find that these sufferings are also meant for ourselves, who claimed to have attained. Such world crisis is necessary to awaken us to the importance of our duty and the carrying on of our task.... "
Thus it is all our own choices. Who do we think knows what is best for us? Can we individually control the fate of humanity, or is a collective effort required? If collective, what will guide that movement?
Regards Tony
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I am saying is is not a blind 'have to beleive'. Like all sound Faith, It is a belief based in a Just and Logic search of what was offered. The stronger the Justice, the stronger the Logic, especially when balanced with science, the stronger the Faith.
There is no Has to in Faith, there is no compulsion, Faith is 'I choose to believe'.
Have a great day, off to work soon, Regards Tony