The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

Trailblazer said:

Yes, that is my argument since I believe that all the major religions are true...

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Read the following and I doubt you will continue to be so sure of that:

"The Achilles' heel of the assumption that all paths lead to the same destination is the problem of conflicting truth-claims. Every religious tradition makes truth-claims and some of these truth-claims contradict the truth-claims of other religious traditions. We will briefly examine three areas of disagreement.

(1.) The first area of contradiction regards the nature of the ultimate reality (such as God). One discovers there is a vast chasm between monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam), and pantheistic religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism). Muslims claim that there is only one God, Allah, who created the universe from nothing. Some Hindus, on the other hand, believe not in a personal creator but in an impersonal absolute reality (Brahman) which permeates all things. Other Hindus believe that there are millions of deities (such as Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and Krishna) which are manifestations of Brahman.

(2.) A second area of contradiction relates to the fate of individuals at death. According to Islam, each person will die once and then face judgment by Allah. Depending on Allah's judgment, a person will spend eternity in heaven or hell. In contrast, many Hindus assert that people will live (and have already lived) many lives. Moreover, Hindus believe that the conditions of one’s past and future existence are determined by the cosmic laws of karma. Following death each of us is reincarnated into a different form (human, animal, etc.).

(3.) Each religious tradition also identifies a universal problem that afflicts humanity. This brings us to a third area of disagreement. For example, Hindus claim that the universal problem facing humanity is samsara. Samsara is an endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth (reincarnation) in which every person is trapped. Only through knowledge of one's relationship to Brahman and religious devotion can this cycle be broken and moksha (release) experienced. Christianity, on the other hand, maintains that the universal problem facing every person is separation from God. According to Christianity, each person has rebelled against God by violating his commands (what the Bible calls "sin"). Christianity insists that there is no human solution to this problem. Only through a relationship with Jesus Christ can this problem of separation from God be overcome. Christians believe that Jesus Christ paid an individual’s sin-penalty through his death on the cross in order to restore him or her into relationship with God."

Do All Paths Lead to the Same Destination?

Darkstorn said:

None of those are history books. They are Christian apologetics. They are trying to argue, using philosophical terms, the necessity for the truth value regarding those peoples' own beliefs. That's all.

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How would you know? You've never read them. Duh.

And sure, all apologetics books by Christians are authored by liars, charlatans, and ignorant people who twist the facts, etc.. Do you know how utterly stupid that is? But that's no doubt your thinking.

Wise up and do some decent homework. You won't find Christ from the writings of stiff-necked atheists.

Spartan said:

Read the following and I doubt you will continue to be so sure of that:

"The Achilles' heel of the assumption that all paths lead to the same destination is the problem of conflicting truth-claims. Every religious tradition makes truth-claims and some of these truth-claims contradict the truth-claims of other religious traditions. We will briefly examine three areas of disagreement.

(1.) The first area of contradiction regards the nature of the ultimate reality (such as God). One discovers there is a vast chasm between monotheistic religions (such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam), and pantheistic religions (such as Hinduism, Buddhism). Muslims claim that there is only one God, Allah, who created the universe from nothing. Some Hindus, on the other hand, believe not in a personal creator but in an impersonal absolute reality (Brahman) which permeates all things. Other Hindus believe that there are millions of deities (such as Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and Krishna) which are manifestations of Brahman.

(2.) A second area of contradiction relates to the fate of individuals at death. According to Islam, each person will die once and then face judgment by Allah. Depending on Allah's judgment, a person will spend eternity in heaven or hell. In contrast, many Hindus assert that people will live (and have already lived) many lives. Moreover, Hindus believe that the conditions of one’s past and future existence are determined by the cosmic laws of karma. Following death each of us is reincarnated into a different form (human, animal, etc.).

(3.) Each religious tradition also identifies a universal problem that afflicts humanity. This brings us to a third area of disagreement. For example, Hindus claim that the universal problem facing humanity is samsara. Samsara is an endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth (reincarnation) in which every person is trapped. Only through knowledge of one's relationship to Brahman and religious devotion can this cycle be broken and moksha (release) experienced. Christianity, on the other hand, maintains that the universal problem facing every person is separation from God. According to Christianity, each person has rebelled against God by violating his commands (what the Bible calls "sin"). Christianity insists that there is no human solution to this problem. Only through a relationship with Jesus Christ can this problem of separation from God be overcome. Christians believe that Jesus Christ paid an individual’s sin-penalty through his death on the cross in order to restore him or her into relationship with God."

Do All Paths Lead to the Same Destination?

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Hell isn't permanent for Jews or Muslims.. just for Christians.

sooda said:

There is NO evidence for resurrection just as there is NO evidence Jesus walked on water or fed the 5000.

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Flush. No evidence presented to back up your rant.

Spartan said:

Flush. No evidence presented to back up your rant.

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There is no evidence for anything supernatural.. so believe it or not, There's no more evidence for Jesus walking on water than there is for the resurrection.

oldbadger said:

So get laughing.....

The Cornish tin trade to Tyre and Sidon is well recorded. Get learning ...! LOL

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No ****. Joseph going there is pure legend.

I guess because there are criminals in New York, Spider Man is real.

Wandering Monk said:

No ****. Joseph going there is pure legend.

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It's a Cornish Oral Tradition.
But since Cornwall traded with the Phoenicians to Sidon and Tyre from the beginning of the bronze age, and since Joseph was a successful merchant, and since the Cornish people have this ancient oral tradition, and since they even know and name the island where they say that he stayed, that could fall in to the bounds of possibility.

I guess because there are criminals in New York, Spider Man is real.

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If this is your way of looking at the balance of historical possibilities and probabilities, then I wonder how you decide what to consider to be possible ......... historically..... at all?

But then you don't know what to believe at all. So what's the point in you trying to pretend that you have a firm opinion about this subject?

Wandering Monk said:

You are working on the assumption that those stories are true. We are not. Quoting Bible verses is not going to convince anyone except those who already believe it or accept its authority.

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Maybe so, but if God as the Creator of heaven and earth is the final Authority, then His word stands whether one accepts it or not.

Darkstorn said:

No, if you knew the scriptures, you'd be an atheist like me.

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What about the scriptures would make someone an atheist?

Is anyone really gonna convince someone from the other side to believe as they do?

Jos said:

Is anyone really gonna convince someone from the other side to believe as they do?

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No, probably not, but it is possible they could change their own mind. It might take a long time though.

sooda said:

There is no evidence for anything supernatural.. so believe it or not, There's no more evidence for Jesus walking on water than there is for the resurrection.

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What kind of Christian are you that does not believe in the miracles of Jesus, if I may ask?

Spartan said:

Nonsense. He'll fulfill the remaining prophecies at the 2nd coming. Skeptics always forget to mention this.

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Jesus is not coming back. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

There is no reason for Jesus to come back to earth because Jesus is not the one God had commissioned to build the Kingdom of God on earth. That was Baha’u’llah. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world, meaning it is in heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world, or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to be IN this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

I have been in a dialogue with a Christian on another forum group for five years. He was the first poster on my forum that I started in October 2014. He insists that Jesus is coming back and that Baha’u’llah was a false prophet because Baha’is do not believe what the Bible says. I have told him over and over again that the Bible does not talk and say things; rather people read the Bible and interpret it as they read. There was a hiatus in between our posts for about a year or two, but now he is back on my forum again, saying the same things. We have become friends and we have remained friends in spite of our disagreements. So below is my installment for tonight’s post to him.

Jesus never promised to return, not once in the entire NT. If Jesus had been planning to return, there is no way He would not have made it clear, at least once if not more than once. Instead, we have Jesus saying that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world and He was going to the Father. How much clearer can Jesus be? Yet no Christian has any explanation for these verses. What, if His work was finished, was Jesus going to come back to earth to play golf with president Trump?

In many verses, Jesus said we would see the Son of man in the clouds (third person) because He was referring to another man, who we now know was Baha’u’llah. The way Jesus returned was *contrary to the ways and desires of men* some of whom were waiting for the same Jesus, so their vision was clouded by their own false expectations. Thus the clouds Jesus referred to were metaphorical, not literal clouds in the sky. Just as clouds block the sun, so too do the clouds of ignorance block the Sun of Truth.

Jesus could never some back in the same body because Jesus did not rise from the grave and walk around or ascend to heaven in the same body, and that is how we know that Acts 1:11 refers to the same spirit of Jesus, not the same body. When Jesus said “I will come again” in John 14:3 He was also referring to His spirit coming again, not His body.

To explain in brief, Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible (who was Baha’u’llah) will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence. Baha’u’llah came exactly the same way Jesus came, from the heaven of the will of God.

Spartan said:

Christianity, on the other hand, maintains that the universal problem facing every person is separation from God.....

Christians believe that Jesus Christ paid an individual’s sin-penalty through his death on the cross in order to restore him or her into relationship with God.

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The Baha’i Faith concurs that the universal problem facing every person is separation from God, but it is not only sin that separates us from God, it is self. Jesus said as much:

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

“Say: Deliver your souls, O people, from the bondage of self, and purify them from all attachment to anything besides Me. Remembrance of Me cleanseth all things from defilement, could ye but perceive it. Say: Were all created things to be entirely divested of the veil of worldly vanity and desire, the Hand of God would in this Day clothe them, one and all, with the robe “He doeth whatsoever He willeth in the kingdom of creation,” that thereby the sign of His sovereignty might be manifested in all things.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 294-295

Spartan said:

Do All Paths Lead to the Same Destination?

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All the paths lead to God, even if people do have a misperception of who God is and what His message was.

It is not the scriptures that misrepresented God and the message the scriptures revealed; it is the religions followers who distorted what the religions revealed so much so that it became corrupted so it no longer represented what the Messengers of God originally revealed.

“Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

Spartan said:

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the crux of Christianity. If Christ is not risen from the dead, Christianity dies an immediate death.

Countless times skeptics of Christianity in these fora have been challenged to 'bust' (falsify) the resurrection as it is presented in the New Testament, etc. Every time they've been challenged they run from it, or come up with some shallow argument which they never fully defend. Or they run to Genesis for cover. At no time that I can recall has anyone ever busted the resurrection, although the skeptics love to present wall-to-wall THEORIES on what might have otherwise occurred. They LOVE their theories and unfounded claims. But so far they have no credible evidence to substantiate those theories.

If anyone presents an argument that a (the) resurrection violates the laws of nature / physics, then they must present replicated and peer-approved scientific studies demonstrating that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist.

This thread is about the resurrection of Christ as seen in the Bible / Gospels / New Testament and early extra-biblical writings. Skeptics are invited to try to falsify it, using scriptural and/or historical arguments, etc. And if they can't bust the resurrection, they should strongly reconsider their contrary opinions on the matter.

Skeptics, let's see your bad-boy arguments, and do please endeavor to come up with some EVIDENCE to back up your arguments, and not just pontificate one theory after another!

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Thing is, dear Spartan, the ball is in your corner to show the resurrection took place. We disbelievers have absolutely no responsibility to prove a negative: i.e. the resurrection never took place.

And so far Christians have failed to "prove" the resurrection ever took place.

And FYI

Trailblazer said:

Yes, that is my argument since I believe that all the major religions are true, although God wants us to follow the religion for the dispensation we are living in, not the older religions.

If there is a loving God, it is completely illogical that this God would have Christianity as the one and only true religion because that would leave 67% of humanity out in the cold. You cannot use the argument that everyone could be a Christian if they wanted to because that could never happen.... so that leaves 2/3 of the world population as unsaved.

Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies that refer to the messianic age and that is one reason the Jews rejected Jesus.

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How many people right now have the true religion, the Baha'i Faith? All the rest, according to your beliefs, are following religions that have had things added in, along with being misinterpreted, plus, for Baha'is, even the stuff that was true, has become out dated. So what is that? Like in the high 90% range? Of people that are wrong?

If there is a loving God, how logical is it that he would let everyone of his true religions get screwed up? And, if you play the "it's people that messed it up", then how logical is it that an all-knowing God would let his truth get distorted and corrupted by people. He, supposedly, created them. Well then, he created an inferior product and then blames them? And expects them to keep his laws? No, he knows they won't keep his laws. Oh, and since there is no peace, should the Jews reject Baha'u'llah also?

Trailblazer said:

Sorry, I was not raised as a Christian so I do not know the Bible very well, not like all these atheists who put me to shame.

I do know about doubting Thomas but Jesus could have made Himself look that way.

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He just told you where to read. Read it. You can't keep pretending you don't know these things. Read at least the NT. It's either all true. Or, based on some true historical things with a little bit of embellishment. Or, a total fantasy with a lot of embellishment.

It says that Jesus said that he is not a ghost. He said to touch him... that he's not a ghost. That he has flesh and bone... but then he vanishes into thin air. Which makes it darn near impossible to explain. But sure makes it easy to explain it a way. And that's what Baha'is do. Baha'is explain it away. They say the story is "symbolic" But, take the time to read it. It was written as if true and historical. As if Jesus came back to life. If he did, that's is a big deal. If he didn't, then Christians are following a lie. And the disciples and the gospel writers are liars.

Both those options nullify the Baha'i Faith though. You can't have a Jesus that resurrected from the dead. But, you can't have the NT not be true. So I'm sure you will stick with the Baha'i "he rose symbolically" theory. But read it. Use your logical mind. Do you really think the story is only "symbolic"? If you do, then fine. Go ahead and believe that Jesus is dead and buried and Christians are whacked out for believing such a stupid thing as to believe Jesus came back to life. But don't pretend that you believe in the Bible. Baha'is don't. They believe their version of an interpretation of the Bible... a symbolic one.

Spartan said:

How would you know? You've never read them. Duh.

And sure, all apologetics books by Christians are authored by liars, charlatans, and ignorant people who twist the facts, etc.. Do you know how utterly stupid that is? But that's no doubt your thinking.

Wise up and do some decent homework. You won't find Christ from the writings of stiff-necked atheists.

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Are you telling us that because folks have written about a resurrection, and tell you that in their opinion Jesus is God of the World, the Galaxy (?) the Universe, Parallel Universes and all, or whatever, that you believed them?

You would do better to do the research for yourself.

Again..... Christianity is a Faith.... it is not a Certitude. And in fact it can easily be shown that there is no evidence about where Jesus went, or was taken, from that tomb, nor even about which Jesus was actually crucified, one having been released, the other whipped bloody and stuck on a cross.

I often wonder why Pilate had one of the two Jesus's whipped bloody, with a thorn circle on his head to completely cover his face with blood. Was it to hide his features? The Roman section responsible for the execution would have kicked the crowd back, and since Magdalene and Salome watched from 'afar' this is probably what happened. Nobody else (apart from possibly a kid who had followed Cephas around) dared to stay and watch.

Nobody from the group stayed at the tomb for two nights.... they all left and then returned to find Jesus gone! Wow! He must be God! That's it..... it couldn't possibly be that smart folks saved that particular Jesus's life and got him away and clear.

Could it possibly be (?) that Jesus son of the Father was so popular that Pilate reprieved him, and that later bibles had the 'Jesus' removed from the name and the SonofTheFather part left in Eastern Aramaic so that Latin Readers would just glace over the name 'BaraAbbas' and not connect the dots?

Christians did that kind of thing, you know, believing they were doing the right thing. Even the first sentence of G-Mark got tampered with, that little title 'Son of God' never having been in the first copies of the bible. And last several verses of G-Mark..... they never existed originally.

We don't write these posts to change your mind. We write them for all those who are still questioning......

Spartan said:

The Resurrection of Jesus Christ is the crux of Christianity. If Christ is not risen from the dead, Christianity dies an immediate death.

Countless times skeptics of Christianity in these fora have been challenged to 'bust' (falsify) the resurrection as it is presented in the New Testament, etc. Every time they've been challenged they run from it, or come up with some shallow argument which they never fully defend. Or they run to Genesis for cover. At no time that I can recall has anyone ever busted the resurrection, although the skeptics love to present wall-to-wall THEORIES on what might have otherwise occurred. They LOVE their theories and unfounded claims. But so far they have no credible evidence to substantiate those theories.

If anyone presents an argument that a (the) resurrection violates the laws of nature / physics, then they must present replicated and peer-approved scientific studies demonstrating that God and the supernatural do not and cannot exist.

This thread is about the resurrection of Christ as seen in the Bible / Gospels / New Testament and early extra-biblical writings. Skeptics are invited to try to falsify it, using scriptural and/or historical arguments, etc. And if they can't bust the resurrection, they should strongly reconsider their contrary opinions on the matter.

Skeptics, let's see your bad-boy arguments, and do please endeavor to come up with some EVIDENCE to back up your arguments, and not just pontificate one theory after another!

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I feel like this invitation draws people away from the truth of Christ.

Prestor John said:

I feel like this invitation draws people away from the truth of Christ.

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Then hop out here and do it your way.