Are Veterans Better Than The Rest Of Us?

Curious George said:

*bold mine*
The moment you realize that you are no longer suggesting they are equal in importance.

You want to trivialize the inequality in your jobs and instead use umbrella terms such as "importance." What you are getting at is "the world needs ditch diggers." Sure, the world does need them. But that doesn't mean we honestly view them as equally important jobs. As you suggested yourself some jobs require more skill, more knowledge, more "grit and fortitude." More importantly, you have suggested anyone can be a burger flipper or at least that burger flipping skills are a dime a dozen. If this is true then the more skilled job is more important because anyone can replace the burger flipper. Not so true of the doctor.

Now if you want to put the doctor against another highly qualified or hard to replace position then you are arguing that the jobs are important in different ways. This is true. But if they are equally important then they would deserve equal pay.

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Generally, I agree with you. At least in the sense that jobs have different levels of importance and some can be more easily filled than others. But there is a difference between the importance of the job and the importance of the job holder. And context is also important. A job flipping burgers that helped pay for a BS degree in preparation for medical school is a very important job to the one holding it.

Enoch07 said:

Meh ask a hungry doctor that just worked a 38 hour shift with no sleep. He is gonna be very thankful that burger flipper is there doing his job.

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Cute, but if there was no burger flipper he would find food elsewhere. The family that travelled internationally for that specific doctor are going to be much more out of luck if that doctor vanishes.

Curious George said:

Yet to those that are willing to pay such high fees, those athletes are undoubtedly more important.

Demand plays a huge role. It is how our actions speak louder than our idealistic banter.

Many would agree in the grand scheme of things an entertainer, or at least the multi million dollar entertainer instead of the one who didn't make it but was nearly as good) is less "important" than say a teacher.

But is this really how our society feels? Actions speak louder than words.

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I agree. Society feels that the Kardashians are worth every penny they earn. But if I see Kim scrubbing up before my back surgery, it is going to be very important to me to know that she is there just to observe.

Curious George said:

Cute, but if there was no burger flipper he would find food elsewhere. The family that travelled internationally for that specific doctor are going to be much more out of luck if that doctor vanishes.

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Vanishes?

Dan From Smithville said:

Generally, I agree with you. At least in the sense that jobs have different levels of importance and some can be more easily filled than others. But there is a difference between the importance of the job and the importance of the job holder. And context is also important. A job flipping burgers that helped pay for a BS degree in preparation for medical school is a very important job to the one holding it.

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I agree there is a difference between a job and a job holder. But even the job holders are different in many ways.

We can look at their abilities, their knowledge, their temperament, their experience.

The cold hard truth is that people are not equal in many ways. Yet we latch onto this notion of equality. Surely we do not mean that the invalid is equal in ability to the valedictorian or the football star. And surely we do not mean that the homeless child is equal in resources to the wealthy child.

Instead we are driving at something much deeper than job or net worth. Using labels like "importance" gets us nowhere. Importance is just another ambiguous and amorphous word that helps us feel like our sentiment is poignant.

Dan From Smithville said:

Vanishes?

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Generally-removed to a non existent plane.

Enoch07 said:

Meh ask a hungry doctor that just worked a 38 hour shift with no sleep. He is gonna be very thankful that burger flipper is there doing his job.

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There are a lot of jobs that have higher value that are perceived as low value or having much lower value than they contribute. Plumbers have contributed to the prevention of disease and to human health in many ways that are on a par with contributions made in medicine.

Dan From Smithville said:

I agree. Society feels that the Kardashians are worth every penny they earn. But if I see Kim scrubbing up before my back surgery, it is going to be very important to me to know that she is there just to observe.

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Is this to highlight the subjective difference of "importance?" If so, kudos.

Curious George said:

I agree there is a difference between a job and a job holder. But even the job holders are different in many ways.

We can look at their abilities, their knowledge, their temperament, their experience.

The cold hard truth is that people are not equal in many ways. Yet we latch onto this notion of equality. Surely we do not mean that the invalid is equal in ability to the valedictorian or the football star. And surely we do not mean that the homeless child is equal in resources to the wealthy child.

Instead we are driving at something much deeper than job or net worth. Using labels like "importance" gets us nowhere. Importance is just another ambiguous and amorphous word that helps us feel like our sentiment is poignant.

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I hope that I have not been leading you to believe that I think people are all practically equal as well as philosophically equal. That was not my intention, nor the direction of my effort.

Surely you do not mean that an invalid cannot be a valedictorian. Or that an invalid became that way while performing as a star athlete. Invalid may be too vague and ambiguous a term for what you mean. (sidebar). The nature of the medium we are using and the variability of human typing speeds may be resulting in some of the ambiguity of language that we see here. Not only might we differ in our experiences, interest, opinions and educations on this subject, there are other limiting factors that may be surfacing in this discussion too.

I do not consider a person that is mentally handicapped to be the intellectual equal of someone attaining valedictorian status, but they are no less deserving of life, liberty and happiness either. I do not think that a poor child has the same resources as a wealthy child, but if that poor child has the capability to achieve more than the wealthy child, a chance to explore those opportunities should be available.

Curious George said:

Is this to highlight the subjective difference of "importance?" If so, kudos.

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It was and also that I do not want Kim Kardashian operating on me.

Curious George said:

Is this to highlight the subjective difference of "importance?" If so, kudos.

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And thank you for that.

Curious George said:

Generally-removed to a non existent plane.

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Are doctors vanishing at a rate worthy of mention here?

Curious George said:

Generally-removed to a non existent plane.

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Wait a minute. How can anyone be removed to somewhere that does not exist?

Curious George said:

Generally-removed to a non existent plane.

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I think I need to move to another plane that exists in my slumber. Have a good one. I found this discussion to be very interesting, enlightening and much appreciated. You and @Enoch07 have offered some useful ideas to consider.

Revoltingest said:

No more nor less respect generally.
Respect should depend upon judging the individual.

Some...
- Discounts at movies, restaurants, etc.
- Priority seating on airlines.
- And now waived student loan balances with waived tax liability.

I didn't pay attention to that objection.

Heroes are those who do heroic things.
It's not a function of one's profession, generally.

There is no "should".
Each person may do what calls to them.

Danger is a matter of what actually happens.

It is a question....neither true nor false.
Posters' answers are just opinions, & neither true nor false.

I disagree.

You question is not analogous.
My question assumed no such premise.
​

Your statistical view is not based upon
current data, which is what I've addressed.


This post might have technical problems.
I'm experiencing editing function corruptions.

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Revoltingest said:

No more nor less respect generally.
Respect should depend upon judging the individual.

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So you are saying that compared to lawn keepers, loggers, fishermen, etc., you have no more, nor less respect for any of the soldiers that have been injured, disabled, or killed, trying to protect our freedoms, and the ideals supporting our way of life? The question was not about judging the individual(mischaracterization). The question was specifically about your level of respect for those soldiers who have sacrificed their body and life, defending the same ideals that we all hold true. I take your failure to commit either way, as a none answer. I suppose it's better than admitting, just how you really feel.

Revoltingest said:

ome...
- Discounts at movies, restaurants, etc.
- Priority seating on airlines.
- And now waived student loan balances with waived tax liability.

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Revoltingest said:

I didn't pay attention to that objection.

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So, do you pay any attention to the truth, or is it only your opinions that matter? Here's so more truths that you can also ignore.

Anyone can get discounted movie tickets, if they want them. Even veterans. Just ask your children if you really want to know how. Or, I can provide web sites(IMAX, AMC, CINEMAX, etc.), if necessary. As you have stated, they are just "discounted", and not free.
For some participating Airlines, disabled and severely handicapped veterans do receive priority booking and fast security checking. But this service is also available to anyone with these sorts of handicaps. In fact, it is the Airline's "duty of care" to provide all their passengers with this level of service, or they could be sued.
Are you talking about the memorandum signed by Trump, to cancel the student loan debt for veterans? More half-truth misinformation. This only applies to permanently disabled veterans, and not all veterans. This benefit has always been available to these veterans, as part of their GI bill. Trump only cut down some of the eligibility rules. Any student that is permanently/severely disabled can also cancel their student loan. Student loan cancellation – permanently unfit to work Trump Orders Student Loan Forgiveness for Disabled Veterans So, please stop giving people all this misinformation, and half-truths. You are better than this.

Revoltingest said:

There is no "should".
Each person may do what calls to them.

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Revoltingest said:

Danger is a matter of what actually happens.

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You are correct, I did leave out the word "should". It was probably a senior's moment, and I am clearly not perfect. It is also true that people do what they do. But, I seriously doubt that soldiers enlisted, with the idea that they might not have to face any dangers. I'm sure that those soldiers that were in Viet Nam, Korea, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Iran, Venezuela, Panama, Guatemala, etc., would definitely disagree with your one dimensional definition of danger. In fact, they would say that everyday they must live with danger.

I'm not going to argue about your closed ended question, that makes an uninformed and unsubstantiated assumption about all veterans. That is, the underlying claim that veterans(not handicapped, disabled, blind, dead, etc.) are better than the rest of us. Without actually saying it. Still I have no idea, as to WHY you are asking the question in the first place. So do you personally believe that our disabled and severely handicapped veterans are being treated and respected more than the rest of us? You never actually answered the question, and your examples were not germane to your claim.

Revoltingest said:

Your statistical view is not based uponcurrent data, which is what I've addressed.

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We are not going to get very far, if you are just going to pick and choose only the facts, that support your confirmation bias, and just ignore the rest. I'm sure you would want others to be more objective. You can do your own math if you like. American War Deaths Throughout History , United States military casualties of war - Wikipedia Believe me, my calculation should be 50 times more. So, 4,761.9 per 100,000 is an extremely conservative estimate. But it certainly proves that war is many more times more dangerous than picking up garbage, or keeping the lawns mowed. At least to those of us that have already known this. Since my figures are currently up to, and including the Afghanistan war, what specific figures are you disputing? Are you still claiming that the job of going to war is less dangerous, than logging, farming, grounds keeping, or other civilian jobs? Do you still believe that a soldier's willingness to take this level of risk, deserve more respect than keeping the grounds well maintained? Anyway, it does to me.

Enoch07 said:

Not, but different jobs require different pay.


Hypothetical situation.

Why would anyone clean sewers for $15 an hour of they can flip burgers for the same pay. Nobody would ever clean sewers.

So how do you get people to clean sewers then?

Well since burger flippers get $8 per hour you offer $10 an hour to clean sewers.

Both jobs are important, but one requires extra grit and fortitude. So it pays more.

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Sanitation requires more learned skills and often certification than flipping a burger thus has more upward mobility. To even enter a sewer required training and certification thus transferable skills. Flipping a burger requires basic food safety, nothing more. So one could accept an entry wage for a career path with mobility vs a dead-end job with no mobility.

We no longer generate a national population via reproduction to meet the turn over rate of the fast-food industry. Instead we import those workers than demands higher wages for dead-end jobs that were never career paths.

Dan From Smithville said:

I knew going in that posting on this thread would draw a lot of fire.

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I'm only lightly singed.

But these are points that interest me for a number of reasons. I see that my status as "never served" has already been used to relegate me as different and outside of "served" status. This was something that I expected as highly likely to occur. Just receiving that response indicates the person providing it feels they have special status. It has already been claimed that I have not put my life on some line and couldn't understand, though this was not based on any evidence I have provided and nothing that the respondent could have knowledge of. You do not need to be or have been a soldier to do something dangerous or life threatening or to do it for the benefit of someone else.

I think the members of those professions, like anyone that chooses to do a dangerous job, have earned a measure of respect and compensation for injuries and loss due to those jobs should be a benefit of the work. They are no more special than anyone that has not served in those positions.

It is an interesting and important question. That is the best answer I can come up with right now.

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Exclusivity & admiration are desired by all (maybe just most).
Collecting famous rare sports cars....feeling that one belongs to
an elite group such as soldiers, cops, firemen, or groundskeepers,
....such things are attractive.

Curious George said:

*bold mine*
The moment you realize that you are no longer suggesting they are equal in importance.

You want to trivialize the inequality in your jobs and instead use umbrella terms such as "importance." What you are getting at is "the world needs ditch diggers." Sure, the world does need them. But that doesn't mean we honestly view them as equally important jobs. As you suggested yourself some jobs require more skill, more knowledge, more "grit and fortitude." More importantly, you have suggested anyone can be a burger flipper or at least that burger flipping skills are a dime a dozen. If this is true then the more skilled job is more important because anyone can replace the burger flipper. Not so true of the doctor.

Now if you want to put the doctor against another highly qualified or hard to replace position then you are arguing that the jobs are important in different ways. This is true. But if they are equally important then they would deserve equal pay.

Click to expand...

I think some of it also depends on what kind of barriers in place for people even getting these jobs in the first place. When I was in high school, I couldn't even get a burger flipping job. It wasn't that I didn't try, but no one was hiring me. I tried for jobs at grocery stores, Circle K, 7-11, without success. I got work elsewhere, first at a hotel, then at a mortuary (but only because I knew someone who already worked there and put in a word for me).

Back in those days, employers (even those with crap jobs) could afford to be picky I guess, but when they now say that "nobody wants these jobs," I have to take it with a grain of salt. If employers can't find workers, it's because they're not trying very hard.

Whether a job is "important" seems more a subjective judgment. "Important" to whom? Someone like Miley Cyrus makes more money than most neurosurgeons and rocket scientists, which would indicate that her work is "more important" than that of other occupations. But is that really true?

Dan From Smithville said:

I am not trying to antagonize or disrespect anyone, but what I am seeing is one vote for special status. Obviously, this is an emotional issue for some. I can understand that even though I cannot put myself in their shoes.

I am not sure how to best phrase my interests I have in your questions. It is not to disrespect honorable service and sacrifice. Personally, I think that a career in the military is an honorable and worthwhile pursuit for those that choose it. I once considered it as a choice for myself, though ultimately, I decided against it for my own reasons. No one should be looked down on for making the choice to serve or not receive benefits for serving.

I think these are serious questions that deserve thoughtful and serious consideration and in doing so, have the conversations in a way that is respectful. I know that sometimes raising certain questions automatically places the one asking the questions in a certain light for some whether that is true or not. But how are we to learn anything if we do not ask tough questions too?

While I know nothing of your own status of service, if any, it is none of my business one way or the other outside of what you would voluntarily decide to share. Given what I do know of the political views you have supported, comments you have made about your career and the support of the Constitution you have voiced, it is reasonable to assume that you are pro-military and supportive of those that serve and have served this country. Posing these questions is not in my mind, disrespectful or in opposition to my assumptions.

Since people will view the attributes of a group and use that negatively, I do not see it as unreasonable to ask questions about the positive attributes of a group to determine how other perceive that group or categorize its status. Further, what are the implications of continuing to do that for a group. We see some of it in the rise of hate groups against people based on race, religion or even political position. Does the possibility of creating special status for a valued and respected group have negative implications for the continued elevation of that status, even if it is external to that group and not of their own making?

Perhaps I am getting too deep into this, but it touches on what I am actually interested in this for. Not to marginalize anyone or lead a campaign to reduce their status, but to ponder the possibilities of something taken too far.

To all reading this thread and post, I spent a long time making this post and the other recent posts I made so that I was clear on my interest and my personal position regarding the subject. If I have not been clear, I apologize for that. No disrespect or putting words in others mouths was intended and I would be happy to retract, revise or restate my thoughts to clarify them if there is an issue. I am very much interested in the opinions that people have about this subject, but I am did not join the thread to attack anyone.

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I advise just being civil when opining, &
letting the reactions be what they'll be.
People will take offense at times.

Dan From Smithville said:

I, 2, and 8 have been occupations of people in this land for far longer than this land has been a country. I would expect that earlier in our history, the risk was sometimes higher and the fatality rate higher for those jobs. Though mechanization in those industries comes with its own set of risks and possibilities of fatality.

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Parenthetical aside...
I once designed machinery for the box making industry.
Those things did a lot of crushing, cutting, slicing & compressing.
Walking thru a box plant, one gets the impression that there are
more fingers on the floor than on hands.