I agree with all of this, and admit that the count of "non-believers" who do not necessarily classify themselves as atheist (for whatever reason - possibly stigma?) is probably far greater than 3%... however your follow-up here:
Is most certainly a complaint about those who pro-actively classify themselves as atheist. In other words, the big beef you have is with the 3%. You're not going to see a non-committal, half-baked "non-believer" doing things like suing because you put the nativity up on a courthouse lawn.
I wasn't talking about a Nativity on the COURTHOUSE lawn. The lawsuits I was talking about were in regard to the nativity and/or cross being put on private property: the owner's front yard.
Oh, just as a BTW...I don't have a problem with a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn, either, as long as the 'atomic swirl," (for atheists) and/or symbols of ALL other religions that want to, are also allowed display space.
I, personally, do not feel persecuted.
Good for you. I take it, then, that you have not had rocks thrown at you, dogs sicced on you or physical death threats (not metaphorical, but actual, physical, death threats) made against you?
Most atheists haven't, actually....which was sorta my point, I believe.
That may be mostly due to the fact that I do not care one iota what other people think of my opinions or disposition.
My friend, persecution isn't about what YOU think. It's about what THEY do.
I actually enjoy confrontation on these matters, and do not shy away from asking the really tough questions, putting the pressure at max, and watching people squirm like worms on pavement. So no... Christians couldn't persecute me, personally, if they tried.
I take it, then, that you've never had rocks thrown at you, dogs sicced on you....yadda, yadda?
Arguments about beliefs are not persecution, even when such arguments include 'you're going to burn in hell!" After all, such claims are about what happens after one dies of other things, aren't they?
However - we're not just talking about me, and we're not just talking about personal conversations, are we? No. We're talking about people's religious views coloring their perceptions on legislative matters.
Uh....your religious views color your perceptions on legislative matters, don't they? Or rather, your views on religion do? What's the difference?
And this affects EVERYONE. Not just non-believers, but also other theists who don't buy into Christianity or The Bible. In other words, ALL minority belief systems get taken for a ride unless someone stands up and pouts a foot down. And THAT is what you are experiencing now that has you in a huff.
Uh....you don't know enough about me or the history of my specific belief system to make such a statement...or such a judgement. For instance, were you aware that, pretty much alone in theistic systems, the one I belong to has, in its 'articles of Faith,' the statement that while we claim the right to worship as we wish, that everybody else has the right to worship as they wish, no matter what, when or how?
I have very little patience here for people (including atheists) who think that mere opposition to one's beliefs, or argument, or shouting matches, or the expression of someone else's belief system, rise to the level of 'persecution.' I DO know that when one group attempts to enforce their values and practices on another group by force, legislation or lawsuit, THAT is persecution.
And trust me, I know what that's like.
Here's the thing though - the vast majority of atheists, except a very few individuals who have the public's ear (like Dawkins, or Hitchens when he was still with us, Penn Jillette, George Carlin, etc.) are actually out doing anything even approaching "evangelism" or proselytization. And even then, it isn't the same. They aren't "given the charge" to go out and acquire converts. They found an avenue within which to spread awareness of other ideas and they are using it. A huge majority of atheists don't have this, and they aren't out "preaching." If someone else approaches them or hits them with ideas, then they might come back with their take on things, even to the point of things getting heated - but a lot more people avoid this altogether, and again - they have NO OBLIGATION to go out and "spread the word."
Wait....you're saying that THEIR proselytization, lawsuits, mockery and argumentation is just fine...because they are volunteering?
That makes no sense.
Nah - I'll stick to complaining when legislation is being influenced by fantasies. Thanks very much.
G'head. Complain all you want. Campaign all you want. Argue all you want. Try to get people to change their votes and their minds. Good for you, and I mean that.
That's not persecution. SUING people is. Attempting to pass laws that force people to abandon the practice of their own religion is.
You know what's funny about this? Christians have told me that I will be facing hell-fire or torment before.
Oh, they tell me that, too. I disagree with them. However, don't you see the difference between "If you don't agree with me, God'll get you eventually and you'll go to hell" and 'I'm going to throw you in jail or feed you to the alligators personally so that you will see hell a bit sooner?"
So, isn't that sort of a "threat?"
No.
You know why?
Because THAT is "I BELIEVE that your eventual destination is hell." That's not the same thing as "see this rock? If you don't agree with me, I'm going to hit you with it."
THAT is a threat.
What's funny is, I don't think they do view it as a threat... and do you know why I think they don't?
Because it's not 'see these handcuffs? If you don't agree with me, I'm going to get Bubba there to put them on you and throw you in jail." People generally know the difference there.
Because even they have a very good idea that there is no likelihood that the reality of their threat will come to pass. In other words, nobody views it as a threat because it is all pretend. If you literally threatened to throw me into a lake of fire is it really all that much different?
Uh, yeah.
Unless YOU think that 'God'll get you after you die," and "I'm going to tie you up and throw you into the Okefenokee swamp in front of twenty hungry alligators" is the same thing.
Apparently it is. Or maybe it is because "God" is the one doing the threatening? Boy... what a nice guy, huh?
Uh....You don't know the difference between somebody saying 'God'll get you after you die' and GOD saying, in tones of thunder "Pay attention, because I'm going to get you right now?"
Odd. I know the difference.
