Are there any Muslims here that support apostasy should be punished?

sooda said:

Actually, Baroodi is correct. The Koran is very clear that no harm should come to People of the Book or anyone else, including pagans, if they don't make mischief in the land.

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Ah, mischief. Meaning whatever one pleases.
In the land being anywhere on earth where they
can reach.

I could easily get them out to kill me.

In the event, we are familisr enough with islamists
who find in their book reason enough to kill me
or anyone else for "mischief", so drfined as to
suit them.

So really, I dont believe you.

Baroodi said:

Quran beside the career of Prophet Muhammed are the main source of guidance in Islam. If any one did anything in the name of Islam he should be called terrorist, extremist, fanatic, imposter ....etc. Real Islam only exists for few years after the death of prophet Muhammed. After the Killing of the 3d Khalif, unrest and dictatorship spread spread all over Islamic regions to date. Reasons are diverse especially with the nasty politics of today. President Trump willingly can support a dictator as long as the dictator is pumping his treasury with billions of dollars.

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And who is doing this pumping?

Audie said:

You dont have to go quite so far out of your way to
say something ridiculous about mr, do you?

Or maybe you dp, having set "tear fabric of
community" as adequate reason to kill
someone. Double parking,overdue library books,
all tear, you did say "in each case".

Its not me but you spoke of the equivalence.

Terrif religion and society, there. I think
I would prefer Venezuela.

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Just quoting you....

Audie said:

Ah, mischief. Meaning whatever one pleases.
In the land being anywhere on earth where they
can reach.

I could easily get them out to kill me.

In the event, we are familisr enough with islamists
who find in their book reason enough to kill me
or anyone else for "mischief", so drfined as to
suit them.

So really, I dont believe you.

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You would have to be a world class dummy to get arrested in a Muslim country.Typically their governments interfere less than ours.

Making mischief in the land is the Arabic way of saying crimes against the people.

sooda said:

You would have to be a world class dummy to get arrested in a Muslim country.Typically their governments interfere less than ours.

Making mischief in the land is the Arabic way of saying crimes against the people.

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I believe you sre right on one thing-tho "dummie"
is probably understating. Totally insane to risk arrest
in such a barbaric country is it, not just stupid.

sooda said:

Just quoting you....

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Right. Quoting me quoting you. Clever.

Baroodi said:

Not at all, Quran put it clear(Whoever wants to believe let him believe. And whoever wants to disbelieve let him to disbelieve) 18:29
(Say; O you infidels, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And You don't worship what I am worshiping) 109;1
(You have your religion and I have mine) 109;6

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I think your prophet made it quite clear:


Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari,

England my lionheart said:

I think your prophet made it quite clear:


Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, see also Sahih Muslim, 16:4152, Sahih Muslim, 16:4154
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'"

— Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260
A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

— Sahih al-Bukhari,

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The Christians always figure out
how verses are out of context,
so I expect these are read wrong
and out of context too.

sooda said:

ou aren't listening.. Nobody gets on a soapbox and publicly renounces their religion. Apostacy is TREASON... It means you commit a crime against the community.

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Ok, I get it, for you apostasy, which means leaving Islam or criticising it(in some countries) is considered treason.

sooda said:

Islamic law is not as concerned about the criminal as we are in the US.. They lean towards the victim of crimes

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This makes no sense. How does some Joe who has renounced their faith effect you in any way, shape, or form? It seems like the only victim here is the person who wants freedom from thought crime
Perhaps you can actually explain what you said instead of just asserting it.

sooda said:

Its different, not wrong.. unless you demand that every country be like the United States.

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I never said it should change even though I don't like it. I won't force anyone to believe something, but this seems to be what you want.

I'll ask again. Do you think apostasy should be punished by human beings?

sooda said:

Actually, Baroodi is correct. The Koran is very clear that no harm should come to People of the Book or anyone else, including pagans, if they don't make mischief in the land.

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Ever since I first heard about this making mischief in the land, it struck me as being a catchall means of punishing anyone that does anything that could be called anti-Islamic.

Baroodi said:

Not at all, Quran put it clear(Whoever wants to believe let him believe. And whoever wants to disbelieve let him to disbelieve) 18:29
(Say; O you infidels, I don't worship what you are worshiping. And You don't worship what I am worshiping) 109;1
(You have your religion and I have mine) 109;6

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Sorry I missed your reply and I misread what you said, sorry

Okay, so you don't believe it should be punished by human-beings.

Thanks. (this post has been majorly edited by me because I did not see the "Not at all," part)

Audie said:

The Christians always figure out
how verses are out of context,
so I expect these are read wrong
and out of context too.

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Always of course.

sooda said:

If you rape or murder or swindle, you betray the faith and the community which is "treason" aka apostacy.

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No you don't. Apostasy is to renounce your religion. And Islamic jurisprudence has always held that renouncing Islam is a capital offense. Rape and fraud have nothing to do with it.

sooda said:

Muslim countries are NOT all the same.. nor is Sharia law the same from country to country.

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Of course not. Nevertheless, many Islamic countries do punish apostasy; some by death. And while that may be their prerogative as sovereign nations that doesn't make it defensible. It is not a blanket indictment of Muslims as a whole to acknowledge that in certain Islamic countries renouncing Islam is a capital offense.

sooda said:

You aren't listening.. Nobody gets on a soapbox and publicly renounces their religion. Apostacy is TREASON... It means you commit a crime against the community.

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That treason is the renunciation of Islam, nothing more. And you do not have to publicly announce your renunciation to be at risk of prosecution, you simply have to be accused of it. Much like Asia Bibi, who on the mere accusation of blasphemy had mobs braying for her blood. Again, it is not a blanket indictment of Muslims as a whole to acknowledge that there is a fanatical element happy to spill blood on the mere accusation of wrong doing against Islam.

sooda said:

If you think about it.. our justice system also penalizes those who betray our social expectations.

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Secular nations do not punish apostasy.

sooda said:

Its different, not wrong.. unless you demand that every country be like the United States.

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No, I don't demand that. But I do think that the west needs to get honest about Islam and the Islamic world. That doesn't mean demonizing Muslims, but it does mean acknowledging the medieval laws still in force in many Islamic countries. Death for apostates isn't a fringe position, it's orthodoxy.

Ellen Brown said:

You are an Atheist, what concern is that of yours?

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People aren't limited to caring solely about themselves now, are they?

sooda said:

25 countries?

In Islam apostacy means treason.. To commit a crime that betrays the faith and the community.

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Betraying the faith is a pretty loose ringefence.

sooda said:

It has to be loud and public enough to cause your brothers to stumble.. Read the laws of the different countries at his link.

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Yeah, so...that doesn't fill me with comfort. I'm born in a country, assumed Muslim, and if I then reject Islam and publically say why, I could be designated apostate.

For example, were I born in some countries, my posts here could be problematic.

I see that as a bad thing.

sooda said:

You aren't listening.. Nobody gets on a soapbox and publicly renounces their religion. Apostacy is TREASON... It means you commit a crime against the community.

If you think about it.. our justice system also penalizes those who betray our social expectations.

You can get exercised and demanding if you like, but that doesn't impress me much. Islamic law is not as concerned about the criminal as we are in the US.. They lean towards the victim of crimes.

Its different, not wrong.. unless you demand that every country be like the United States.

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People have been prisoned and punished for apostasy though.
Not other crimes with apostasy 'tacked on', but apostasy as their crime.

Technically, I'm apostate with Islam and about all the rest. I'm not worried. Someone living in a place where that is unhealthy should not speak of it. Why the drama?

charlie sc said:

I noticed there are quite a few Islamic users

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I haven't. So far in my experience here, finding another Muslim here is like finding a needle in a haystack.

charlie sc said:

so I was curious if any believed in punishment

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At the end of time, sure, but it's out of our hands. It's not in the power of man, it's in the "hands" of the Universal God that you don't believe in.
But I hear capital punishment is very much a foundation to many secular countries these days.

charlie sc said:

like the death penalty, for apostasy?

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Define apostasy? and under who's terms?

charlie sc said:

It seems like 25 Muslim countries support the death penalty or extreme punishment for apostasy under Sharia law Laws Criminalizing Apostasy.

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Who's Sharia? Under which system of Jurisprudence? and to what end?

I'm just waiting for Buddhists to turn the Eightfold Path into a legislative legal system now, but I'll give it a few more years.

Ellen Brown said:

Technically, I'm apostate with Islam and about all the rest. I'm not worried. Someone living in a place where that is unhealthy should not speak of it. Why the drama?

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And I'm an apostate to all Atheists that think Religion is 'backwards' and should be wiped out, etc etc etc.