"1,000 Scientists Sign Up to Dissent from Darwin"

BilliardsBall · Mar 15, 2019

Dan From Smithville said:
What do you mean by 'rapid' evolution. Human evolution from a common ancestor with other apes took place over millions of years.

Humans are primates unless you have recently and radically changed our taxonomy. What evidence did you use to support this new hypothesis?

A colleague on RF claims these 10,000 telomere changes happened in 200 mutations or less, a claim I find specious.

Yes, humans are primates, yes, we are close to chimpanzees genetically, and yes, the changes represent a phenomenal amount of genetic coding/information, to have evolved in a few tens of millions of years or less IMHO.

BilliardsBall · Mar 15, 2019

Dan From Smithville said:
Since we are already primates, much of our evolution would have taken place prior to any split with the result being that we are a different species of primate and not something that is not primate. Rapid must mean something different to you than it does to everyone else. Changes in telomere length do not contribute to changes in development or form, what are you wanting to know here? The telomere serves to protect the ends of the chromosomes. That protection can exist with shorter telomeres as well as longer ones. That some mutation event reduced ours does not mean the remainder does not fulfill its function. It certainly does not mean we did not evolve and are not most closely related to chimps.

1) Are you accounting 10,000 telomere changes in your thinking?

2) Are you accounting for telomere effects on longevity/survivability?

Subduction Zone · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
But I don't believe 50 telomeres times 200 mutations, in perfect array/execution, since telomeres touch on species longevity/survivability, AND NEITHER DO YOU, unless--hmm, you simply sounded off WITHOUT doing the math.

Why don't you believe it? The experts in the field do not seem to be at all concerned about this difference. You are making a rather gross error in assuming that one must have one mutation to for each fewer teleomere. As @Polymath257 pointed out it could easily be due to a single mutation. You are merely grasping at straws. You need to remember unanswered questions are definitely not evidence for your beliefs. Scientists have this nasty habit. They like to answer unsolved questions, as they did with all of the examples of "irreducible complexity" brought up by Behe et al.

What you need to do is to see if there is any evidence at all for your beliefs. Even if you somehow, and this is extremely doubtful, prove evolution wrong you still have no evidence for your beliefs.

Subduction Zone · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
A colleague on RF claims these 10,000 telomere changes happened in 200 mutations or less, a claim I find specious.

Yes, humans are primates, yes, we are close to chimpanzees genetically, and yes, the changes represent a phenomenal amount of genetic coding/information, to have evolved in a few tens of millions of years or less IMHO.

Why? Why do you find that claim "specious"? If you do not have any evidence to the contrary then your skepticism is not properly placed. All it would take is change in the gene that tells how many telemeres to produce. If there even is such a number. It may be based upon some other factor.

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
No, we are not talking about a DNA connection to DNA, we are talking about deleting 10,000 lines of "programming", which in this case, is nanotech programming, aka real physical material, which further has to do with the species mortality, being telomeres, as in "survivability".

No.

No, we are not. We are talking about deleting 10,000 repetitions. That is a triviality.

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
You are saying a single mutation would trim a sequence in 10,000 places? I may be misunderstanding your note above.

Yes, easily. For example, all that would be required is a mutation that stops the telemorase from continuing further.

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
A colleague on RF claims these 10,000 telomere changes happened in 200 mutations or less, a claim I find specious.

No, I am saying *those* 10,000 changes can be done in a single mutation. Easily.

Yes, humans are primates, yes, we are close to chimpanzees genetically, and yes, the changes represent a phenomenal amount of genetic coding/information, to have evolved in a few tens of millions of years or less IMHO.

Jose Fly · Mar 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
No, we are not. We are talking about deleting 10,000 repetitions. That is a triviality.

Or adding the same number.

Telomerase

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
1) Are you accounting 10,000 telomere changes in your thinking?

2) Are you accounting for telomere effects on longevity/survivability?

Absolutely, I am. Also, I am including the effects on cancer suppression. But that is irrelevant to how many mutations are required. ALL that is required is that the protein producing those repetitious pieces of DNA stop prematurely.

Dan From Smithville · Mar 15, 2019

BilliardsBall said:
A colleague on RF claims these 10,000 telomere changes happened in 200 mutations or less, a claim I find specious.

I have seen the posts. The claim is that the the developmental differences between chimps and humans probably resulted from only 200 mutations. Not that the changes in the telomeres happened in 200 mutations. Polymath even repeated what he posted.

Probably only a very few mutations could have erased those telomere repeats. It is not developmental or coding DNA that we are talking about.

BilliardsBall said:
Yes, humans are primates, yes, we are close to chimpanzees genetically, and yes, the changes represent a phenomenal amount of genetic coding/information, to have evolved in a few tens of millions of years or less IMHO.

Why. Because it is convenient to belief to go with that conclusion? There is no reason I know of that we could not see the differences we see in two diverging lines over five to 10 million years.

Justatruthseeker · Mar 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Absolutely, I am. Also, I am including the effects on cancer suppression. But that is irrelevant to how many mutations are required. ALL that is required is that the protein producing those repetitious pieces of DNA stop prematurely.

Which does what else to the creature?

The evolutionary consequences of erroneous protein synthesis

"Plentiful evidence demonstrates that errors in protein synthesis reduce organism fitness: disruption of translational fidelity with common antibiotics such as streptomycin and kanamycin kills bacteria; cells with impaired translational proofreading ability display altered morphologies and suffer severe fitness defects, as do cells with elevated rates of transcription errors in an essential gene; defects in translational fidelity and in protein folding cause disease phenotypes in mouse models."

Sky Rivers · Mar 15, 2019

As a Creationist, I’m not particularly bothered by evolution and while I don’t believe in it, I also don’t care if it’s true; it doesn’t trouble my faith either. As for Creationism being harmful, I disagree. People who USE Creationism to force their views on others, radically? That’s harmful.

Subduction Zone · Mar 15, 2019

Justatruthseeker said:
Which does what else to the creature?

The evolutionary consequences of erroneous protein synthesis

"Plentiful evidence demonstrates that errors in protein synthesis reduce organism fitness: disruption of translational fidelity with common antibiotics such as streptomycin and kanamycin kills bacteria; cells with impaired translational proofreading ability display altered morphologies and suffer severe fitness defects, as do cells with elevated rates of transcription errors in an essential gene; defects in translational fidelity and in protein folding cause disease phenotypes in mouse models."

No one is denying that harmful mutations exist. The explains how one type of bad mutation manifests. But one has to actively avoid the fact that positive mutations exist as well.

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

Justatruthseeker said:
Which does what else to the creature?

The evolutionary consequences of erroneous protein synthesis

"Plentiful evidence demonstrates that errors in protein synthesis reduce organism fitness: disruption of translational fidelity with common antibiotics such as streptomycin and kanamycin kills bacteria; cells with impaired translational proofreading ability display altered morphologies and suffer severe fitness defects, as do cells with elevated rates of transcription errors in an essential gene; defects in translational fidelity and in protein folding cause disease phenotypes in mouse models."

Telemorase is inactivated in most somatic cells, so this wouldn't be an issue.

Justatruthseeker · Mar 15, 2019

Subduction Zone said:
No one is denying that harmful mutations exist. The explains how one type of bad mutation manifests. But one has to actively avoid the fact that positive mutations exist as well.

Every mutation is harmful... I doubt you realize that the mutation that made E coli able to process citrus without oxygen also made it so it can't survive on anything else....

There is no such thing as a purely beneficial mutation.....

They mutated Fruit Flies and got bigger and stronger Fruit Flies, but they didn't complete the mating process as often as the unmutated ones. Not to mention not a single one of any of the mutated flies can survive outside of the favorable conditions of the laboratory.....

Justatruthseeker · Mar 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
Telemorase is inactivated in most somatic cells, so this wouldn't be an issue.

Well if it's inactivated then why do you find it necessary to hypothesize having to stop a protein to keep it from occurring????? It's already inactive and so would not increase.....

So deactivating a protein to cause it to be less than animals continuing the process wouldn't be an issue....

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

Justatruthseeker said:
Well if it's inactivated then why do you find it necessary to hypothesize having to stop a protein to keep it from occurring????? It's already inactive and so would not increase.....

It is active during meiosis. In germ cells, not in somatic cells.

Justatruthseeker · Mar 15, 2019

Polymath257 said:
It is active during meiosis. In germ cells, not in somatic cells.

Ahh so now you want to stop protein production for cells made for sexual reproduction. And back to the loss of proteins we go and the harm they ALWAYS cause.....

Polymath257 · Mar 15, 2019

Justatruthseeker said:
Ahh so now you want to stop protein production for cells made for sexual reproduction. And back to the loss of proteins we go and the harm they ALWAYS cause.....

No, not stop protein production. Stop telomere production.

Subduction Zone · Mar 15, 2019

Justatruthseeker said:
Every mutation is harmful... I doubt you realize that the mutation that made E coli able to process citrus without oxygen also made it so it can't survive on anything else....

There is no such thing as a purely beneficial mutation.....

They mutated Fruit Flies and got bigger and stronger Fruit Flies, but they didn't complete the mating process as often as the unmutated ones. Not to mention not a single one of any of the mutated flies can survive outside of the favorable conditions of the laboratory.....

That is demonstrably wrong. And your poor examples tell us that you have no clue.

Since you do not understand anything, as shown by your desperate use of fruit fly experiments, why not try to learn instead?

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