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A complex case against intelligent design

rrobs

Well-Known Member
There's about 10 pages of your personal take on God. At some point you have to talk about the thread topic somewhere.
Like I said, I tried to do just that. Read replies #24 and #29. There were a few others where I said we are getting off topic.

I think the problem is the wolf pack mentality many in this thread have towards Christians. I'm not making excuses, just trying to explain what may have occurred.

I should not have engaged people getting off topic. I promise I won't it any more if I comment on any of your future posts. Of course, if you don't want to me comment on your posts at all I'll gladly comply with your wishes.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think the ID people would have a good argument if there were no other compelling explanations. But as I stated in the OP, it seems to me evolution with all its imperfections is a closer more accurate possible explanation. You could even say evolution is a compelling explanation based on known facts.
No they wouldn't. The basic problem with ID is it is anti-science. The entire progress of science since the Renaissance comes from NOT shrugging your shoulders and attributing it to a miracle worked by God, whenever you do not have an explanation.

In mediaeval times, people thought all sorts of things were just "acts of God", from thunderstorms to disease. Thinking that way makes it easier to accept things beyond your control, but does nothing to help you get to grips with the physical causes underlying such things.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
I'm pretty sure you told me you've read the Bible at least once, if not twice.
As with so many things, you are wrong about this as well.


The truth that Christ ended the requirements to follow the law is a pretty fundamental tenet in the Bible. Hard to miss, really.

Rom 10:4,

For Christ [is] the end of the law (including period directives) for righteousness to every one that believeth.​
What's not hard to miss is that you, like the vast majority of theists, pick and choose what to believe. What's not hard to miss is that the Bible is so full of so much nonsense, that pretty much anyone can find something to support their personal agendas.

It's pretty clear why hypocrisy is not banned in the Bible.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Overall, you appear to look at man's actions and mistake them for God's will. .

Nope. I'm strictly arguing from your claim that the bible is "A Source of Truth".

I'm calling you on that claim, by pointing out the many-many fatal flaws in this ... "truth" of yours.

How that Humans have evolved far-far superior Morality than when your Bronze Age Book was first "inspired" by your god.
Reason is impotent in stopping slavery as well as a myriad of other atrocities..

Really? Reason is WHY Slavery is seen as Immoral today-- certainly nobody used your immoral bible to arrive at that conclusion!

The bible is FULL of advice on how to get slaves, how to treat them, and so on.

No-- it was 100% REASON that got rid of slavery. Never the bible's immoral teachings!
I get it you don't trust the Bible, but why trust reason?.

Because Reason cured Polio-- not prayers.

Because Reason created the Internet-- not bible study.

Because Reason discovered Germ Theory-- not reading the bible's Bronze Age Superstitions.

The track record of Reason? Far-far outweighs ALL faith-claims, no exceptions.
Hitler reasoned the Holocaust.i.
100% FALSE. Hitler? Was a Good Christian-- at least he BELIEVED he was! (so much for BELIEF). He was simply following the Bible, in that he BELIEVED the Jews were "christ killers" as taught by a faction of the Catholic Church.

Not ironically, the sitting Pope blessed the Nazi Party-- we have photographs.
Pol Pot reasoned the Killing Fields..

FALSE AGAIN. Pol Pot was spiritual, but he was also a Dictator, and craved POWER over all.


Lenin reasoned the Red Terror..

FALSE YET AGAIN. Lenin craved POWER, and killed anyone who opposed him in any way.
I'll bet had they used the scriptures instead of reason, none of those atrocities would have occurred.

NOPE: The Crusades-- used SCRIPTURE. The Manifest Destiny, wherein thousands upon thousands of Native Americans were slaughtered or rounded up like cattle, BECAUSE OF SCRIPTURE.

The Dark Ages? Happened because people USED SCRIPTURE.

Nope-- faith/scripture? LEADS DIRECTLY TO ATROCITY, more times than not.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes. It tells me to love my enemies, not that I'd call you a full blown enemy. After all, I hardly know you. But that is why I held out an olive branch trying to make peace. The offer still stands.

I have a lot of Christian friends and relatives. I do not have any holy roller Christian friends and relatives. I wouldn't want them in person, nor do I need them online.

Do you think it better to continue hurling insults at those who disagree with you? It's not good for your psyche, Christian or not. It's a hormonal thing.

What insults have I hurled? Pointing out hypocrisy is not hurling insults.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I'll bet had they used the scriptures instead of reason, none of those atrocities would have occurred.

What do you mean by "used the scriptures"? You already said that, based on your forty years of study, the OT laws don't apply. But some people didn't have forty years to study scripture. Also, many people who have studied scripture for forty years, believe that the OT laws do apply.

Hitler took a shortcut and used the writings of someone who had studied the scriptures for many years - Martin Luther. He used those writings to convince the German Christians that the Jews were subhuman.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
My basic premise is our design doesn't appear to be intelligent as much as it could be. There are so many problems with the human body. The fact that disease exists at all is an indication of imperfections in the design. For example, take DNA and cancer. The DNA mechanism certainly could be more corrective to make cancer impossible. Another example, is limb regeneration or regeneration in general. We have to many organs and body parts that are not capable of regeneration. Yet cuts in skin can regenerate and heal.

I'm sure there are hundreds more I could cite. But my basic premise is a truly intelligent design, and assuming it was God doing the design, there is so much room for improvements it just doesn't seem an intelligent agent was consciously involved. You would think with God's infinite capacity for intelligence if God were the agent our bodies would be more tightly organized and self-correcting.

It seems to me evolution and adaptation is better explanation for what we experience in our lives. Say you have a million apes running around and one get's a gene upgrade or improvement. It takes hundreds of generations before the change migrates throughout the entire species if it migrates at all. There are so many differences and quirks in human genes it seems to me migratory adaptation is the only explanation to explain all the inconsistencies across the entire population.
Come on folks, stick with the OP. The original poster, dfnj, deserves our respect and consideration.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Well, you said you believed in a benevolent God because you chose that.

I suspect you chose that because malevolent Gods are suboptimal, in general.

So, what motivated your choice if not an inner desire that God is benevolent?

Well yes, of course; why does anyone choose anything other than that they prefer it for one reason or another...?

I prefer to believe in the omnibenevolent God as opposed to an omnimalevolent god because it makes this the best of all possible universes, and because it doesn't make much sense to me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god that has nothing but evil intent for us--how could we possibly have prevailed this long against it?
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Well, for starters, I should say that I certainly don't claim to know it all. Nobody does. But I know a lot. I've studied it for 40 years. I've studied Greek and Hebrew which are the languages in which the texts were originally written. I've studied history and archeology.

While I don't know it all, I can say with complete confidence that you have many flawed ideas. It is obvious that much of what you "know" is either from tradition or your own musings. Again, no judgement, just how it is. I've been there myself, I wasn't born with a Bible in my hands. At one time I thought pretty much like you. At some point I educated myself and my conceptions changed as I continued to study.

I know I'm rightly dividing the scriptures regarding the Old and New Testaments the same way you know there was a big earthquake in Anchorage, Alaska yesterday. I just read the words without preconceptions as to where and when the earthquake occurred.
Not having preconceptions is the key. I doubt very greatly you've spent much time in a dispassionate, objective, scholarly study of the scriptures. I can tell you have many preconceptions. Again, no judgement. It doesn't make you any less of a human being than me or anybody else. It just means you don't have much understanding of the scriptures. Lot's of people don't.

As you know the OP'er isn't happy with the off topic chat so I will leave it here. Interesting conversation so I'm happy to continue it in a more appropriate place if you want.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
You've completely hijacked my thread. I don't care too much why you have blind faith in your own dogma. This has nothing to do with the topic. If the title of the thread were, "why 30 years of blind faith has made rrobs personal interpretations of scripture the only absolute truth from God" then you can post your drivel.

Not just his fault, I'm guilty too... apologies.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
As you know the OP'er isn't happy with the off topic chat so I will leave it here. Interesting conversation so I'm happy to continue it in a more appropriate place if you want.
I guess we got carried away. In any case, I think we've pretty well wrung out this conversation. It was interesting, but starting to go in circles. If you don't mind, let's just call it quits. Some other topic later perhaps. Take care.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think you are reading things into the scriptures that aren't really there. All they say could just as easily fit with a round earth.

I was a teenager (15 at that time), when I first read the Bible, before my sister joined her church. I don't understand the bible that well at the time, and much of what I had learned between 15-20 was based on church interpretations and church traditions.

And then there was 14 (or 15) year hiatus, where I didn't touch the bible (mainly because my studies and then my jobs took higher priorities over religion).

In 2000 (I was 34, here), I started reading the bible again, at first as research for my personal website Timeless Myths on the section regarding to Joseph of Arimathea and the "Grail" for my Arthurian section.

Re-reading parts of the bible (for my website), I found myself re-reading the entire gospels. What I discovered was that my view have changed than when I was a teenager. I read the gospels with fresh mind, unfettered by Church teachings, just re-reading the bible as it is, and not what the church say. Being older, and having more experiences in life in general, and particularly being able to interpret literature without church interference, my thoughts on the bible and its contents have been revised.

It wasn't evolution vs creationism that made me agnostic, but the fact that I no longer believe in church teachings and the contradictions that I found in the so-called OT prophecies and signs were meant to be prophecies and signs of Jesus, weren't true.

Back in the days when I was a teenager, I simply took what the church taught me in regarding to the bible without question, without cross-referencing and with double-checking what I was reading on my own.

The first mistake that I saw had nothing to do with Genesis creation and evolution, but with Matthew's, I mean the gospel's quote (Matthew 1:23) and interpretation of Isaiah's sign (Isaiah 7:14), the one about Immanuel and the so-called virgin birth. As a teenager, I didn't question or double-check that the gospel quoted Isaiah 7:14, because I had assumed that the gospel was correct and the church teaching regarding to that passage.

To understand Isaiah's sign, I had to re-read the whole chapter (Isaiah 7, as well as Isaiah 8, since they are related), and what I found that the sign had nothing to with the gospel's messianic prophecy. The woman in the sign had nothing to do with Mary, and Immanuel had nothing to do with Jesus or with the messiah.

Matthew 1:23 had only focused on just one verse (Isaiah 7:14), but totally ignored the rest of the sign (7:14-25, but more specifically with 7:14-17). The whole chapter of Isaiah 7, had nothing to do with any messiah and the virgin birth, but it was about the war between Judah and the alliance of Israel and Aram, but the sign was actually about the Assyrian intervention in the war (Isaiah 7:14-17).

That's what got me started in revising the bible as the whole, made me rethink the OT & NT relation, particularly the messianic prophecy.

The way I see it, I don't think I was educated enough, as a teenager to deal with the bible unfettered and think independently from the church teachings.

I think I understand the bible these last 18 years now than I did as a teenager.

Back in my time, when I was working on Timeless Myths (1999 to 2006), I did a lot of reading, re-reading, double-checking and cross-referencing, something that I didn't do as a teenager, when I did believe in the bible.

My point is that view have changed since I was a teenager, and I do think I understand the bible better than I did as a teenager.

As to the round Earth vs flat Earth argument, the OT isn't science, so its view was that of flat Earth.

The “round” earth don't necessarily mean the Earth is spherical (or more precisely near spherical).

The Hebrew astronomy at that time, was based mostly on Babylonian astronomy, and they (Babylonians) also believed the Earth to be round, but round like a disk, not as a sphere.

A disk-shaped Earth is still “Flat Earth” concept, but geographically, with rounded boundary, like a coin having flat sides and rounded edge.

This disk-shaped Flat Earth is found in Job 26:

“Job 26:10” said:
10 He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness.

So it view the "circle" or Earth as a disk floating on the water.

The Bible even has a passage where the wicked could fall off the edge should god shake the earth:

“Job 38:13 KJV” said:
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

“Job 38:13 NIV” said:
13 that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it?

“Job 38:13 NRSV” said:
13 so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

“Job 38:14 NJPS” said:
13 So that it seizes the corners of the earth And shakes the wicked out of it?

No matter how you slice it or how translate it, if the Earth is spherical, then there are no edges, no ends, no corners and no boundaries; it would only have any one of these things (eg edges, ends or corners), if the Earth was "disk" in shape.

What you don't understand is that it was the Greek philosophers, starting with the 6th century BCE Pythagoras, who first thought the Earth was spherical in shape. But this concept of spherical Earth didn't hold traction until 4th century Aristotle and Greek astronomers of the Hellenistic period (a period which started after Alexander the Great's death in 322 BCE).

So in the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, the flat Earth concept was still very popular, and Pythagoras' original idea of spherical Earth weren't really known in the outside world, until Aristotle and Hellenistic astronomers.

So when Genesis, Psalms, Job were written, compiled and edited between 6th and 5th centuries BCE, they had no idea about the spherical Earth.

If anyone who don't understand the passages, it is you, rrobs.
 

rrobs

Well-Known Member
I was a teenager (15 at that time), when I first read the Bible, before my sister joined her church. I don't understand the bible that well at the time, and much of what I had learned between 15-20 was based on church interpretations and church traditions.

And then there was 14 (or 15) year hiatus, where I didn't touch the bible (mainly because my studies and then my jobs took higher priorities over religion).

In 2000 (I was 34, here), I started reading the bible again, at first as research for my personal website Timeless Myths on the section regarding to Joseph of Arimathea and the "Grail" for my Arthurian section.

Re-reading parts of the bible (for my website), I found myself re-reading the entire gospels. What I discovered was that my view have changed than when I was a teenager. I read the gospels with fresh mind, unfettered by Church teachings, just re-reading the bible as it is, and not what the church say. Being older, and having more experiences in life in general, and particularly being able to interpret literature without church interference, my thoughts on the bible and its contents have been revised.

It wasn't evolution vs creationism that made me agnostic, but the fact that I no longer believe in church teachings and the contradictions that I found in the so-called OT prophecies and signs were meant to be prophecies and signs of Jesus, weren't true.

Back in the days when I was a teenager, I simply took what the church taught me in regarding to the bible without question, without cross-referencing and with double-checking what I was reading on my own.

The first mistake that I saw had nothing to do with Genesis creation and evolution, but with Matthew's, I mean the gospel's quote (Matthew 1:23) and interpretation of Isaiah's sign (Isaiah 7:14), the one about Immanuel and the so-called virgin birth. As a teenager, I didn't question or double-check that the gospel quoted Isaiah 7:14, because I had assumed that the gospel was correct and the church teaching regarding to that passage.

To understand Isaiah's sign, I had to re-read the whole chapter (Isaiah 7, as well as Isaiah 8, since they are related), and what I found that the sign had nothing to with the gospel's messianic prophecy. The woman in the sign had nothing to do with Mary, and Immanuel had nothing to do with Jesus or with the messiah.

Matthew 1:23 had only focused on just one verse (Isaiah 7:14), but totally ignored the rest of the sign (7:14-25, but more specifically with 7:14-17). The whole chapter of Isaiah 7, had nothing to do with any messiah and the virgin birth, but it was about the war between Judah and the alliance of Israel and Aram, but the sign was actually about the Assyrian intervention in the war (Isaiah 7:14-17).

That's what got me started in revising the bible as the whole, made me rethink the OT & NT relation, particularly the messianic prophecy.

The way I see it, I don't think I was educated enough, as a teenager to deal with the bible unfettered and think independently from the church teachings.

I think I understand the bible these last 18 years now than I did as a teenager.

Back in my time, when I was working on Timeless Myths (1999 to 2006), I did a lot of reading, re-reading, double-checking and cross-referencing, something that I didn't do as a teenager, when I did believe in the bible.

My point is that view have changed since I was a teenager, and I do think I understand the bible better than I did as a teenager.

As to the round Earth vs flat Earth argument, the OT isn't science, so its view was that of flat Earth.

The “round” earth don't necessarily mean the Earth is spherical (or more precisely near spherical).

The Hebrew astronomy at that time, was based mostly on Babylonian astronomy, and they (Babylonians) also believed the Earth to be round, but round like a disk, not as a sphere.

A disk-shaped Earth is still “Flat Earth” concept, but geographically, with rounded boundary, like a coin having flat sides and rounded edge.

This disk-shaped Flat Earth is found in Job 26:



So it view the "circle" or Earth as a disk floating on the water.

The Bible even has a passage where the wicked could fall off the edge should god shake the earth:









No matter how you slice it or how translate it, if the Earth is spherical, then there are no edges, no ends, no corners and no boundaries; it would only have any one of these things (eg edges, ends or corners), if the Earth was "disk" in shape.

What you don't understand is that it was the Greek philosophers, starting with the 6th century BCE Pythagoras, who first thought the Earth was spherical in shape. But this concept of spherical Earth didn't hold traction until 4th century Aristotle and Greek astronomers of the Hellenistic period (a period which started after Alexander the Great's death in 322 BCE).

So in the 6th and 5th centuries BCE, the flat Earth concept was still very popular, and Pythagoras' original idea of spherical Earth weren't really known in the outside world, until Aristotle and Hellenistic astronomers.

So when Genesis, Psalms, Job were written, compiled and edited between 6th and 5th centuries BCE, they had no idea about the spherical Earth.

If anyone who don't understand the passages, it is you, rrobs.
I appreciate the effort you obviously put into your reply, but you better check out post #274. Sorry to leave you hanging. Take care.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well yes, of course; why does anyone choose anything other than that they prefer it for one reason or another...?

Of course. I also like to believe I am 18 still.

I prefer to believe in the omnibenevolent God as opposed to an omnimalevolent god because it makes this the best of all possible universes, and because it doesn't make much sense to me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god that has nothing but evil intent for us--how could we possibly have prevailed this long against it?

Well, what you are mentioning here is the problem of good. A real evil God cannot explain the good we experience today, if any. But wait! I heard that believers in a good god have a symmetric issues, namely explaining evil.

And what do you mean with prevailing? If I were real evil I would create the illusion to prevail, by letting my victims live as long as possible, and then send all those believers to eternal oblivion. Those poor deluded sods.

So, ceteris paribus, I think it is easier to make a case for a an omnimalevolent god than a omnibenevolent one. Which might provide some evidence that the former is true.

Do you have any stronger argument against that idea? Apart from your wish, of course.

Ciao

- vole
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Of course. I also like to believe I am 18 still.

Let me know how that works out for you.

As Bob Hope used to say, "Sometimes I feel like a 16 year old, but there's never one handy when that happens."

Do you have any stronger argument against that idea? Apart from your wish, of course.

Of course not! Heck, we can't even prove that God does or doesn't exist, let alone what qualities He does or doesn't possess. Like everything else in life (well, other than our own existence of course), what you have faith in is ultimately your own choice.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Let me know how that works out for you.

As Bob Hope used to say, "Sometimes I feel like a 16 year old, but there's never one handy when that happens."



Of course not! Heck, we can't even prove that God does or doesn't exist, let alone what qualities He does or doesn't possess. Like everything else in life (well, other than our own existence of course), what you have faith in is ultimately your own choice.

Well, cool to know that.
What I am not so sure about is the reliability of a belief that we chose to belief.
And how can anyone hold to that belief that is not, to put it brutally, nothing more than wishful thinking.

Ciao

- viole
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
What I am not so sure about is the reliability of a belief that we chose to belief.

Yeah, NOBODY is sure about the reliability of beliefs. That's why they call it faith. But hey, it's all we have.

And how can anyone hold to that belief that is not, to put it brutally, nothing more than wishful thinking.

Well, even though I choose to believe in things that cannot be proven true (such as axioms like "two parallel lines never intersect") or at least cannot be proven true without choosing to have faith in the testimony of others about their personal experiences (like the belief that if you sail east from America you'll eventually get to Europe) or at least faith in my own personal experiences (like the belief that a real world exists outside of my own head), I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss wishful thinking.

I mean, I wish to believe that a real world exists outside of my own head, because I would find it really distasteful to believe that I am just a brain in a vat somewhere being fed these experiences through electrodes. And I find that through faith in my own experiences that some other people tend to experience this "real world" in roughly the same way that I do (and that some do not)--at least if I have faith in the testimony of others about their own personal experiences (again, because I wish to--life would be more distasteful to me if I believed that I could not trust anything that anyone else said).

Likewise with the things I choose to believe about God. If I can trust the testimony of others about their own personal experiences, then some other people tend to experience God in roughly the same way that I do (and some do not).

So if everything IS just wishful thinking--the existence of God and His characteristics, the veracity of other people's claims and testimonies, and even the existence of a real world outside of my own head--then at least a lot of other people (if there are any other people) seem to be wishing the same things.

EDIT: As I read that over, I realize it's not put forth as clearly as I would have liked--but hey, I'm trying to watch football here, and a full exposition of the epistemological bases for beliefs would not only take up a great deal of time and space, it would largely be off-topic as well. So, like with everything else, you'll just have to choose what to believe.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I prefer to believe in the omnibenevolent God ...it doesn't make much sense to me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god
Just to clarify...You believe God to be omnibenevolent but neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

That's the beauty of religious belief. Anyone can believe anything they want based on their own preference, bias or agenda.
 

Axe Elf

Prophet
Just to clarify...You believe God to be omnibenevolent but neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Quote manips are so 2005.

Had you quoted (and comprehended) my entire statement, you would see that...

I prefer to believe in the omnibenevolent God as opposed to an omnimalevolent god because it makes this the best of all possible universes, and because it doesn't make much sense to me to believe in an omnipotent, omniscient god that has nothing but evil intent for us--how could we possibly have prevailed this long against it?

Omnipotence and omniscience are givens in this context; what doesn't make much sense is to believe in an omnipotent and omniscient god who is also omnimalevolent, as opposed to an omnipotent and omniscient God Who is also omnibenevolent.
 
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