"Christianity is the religion of the end of religion"

Cacotopia said:

Did Jesus write the bible? Did his Apostles? Nope, witnesses of witnesses of witnesses wrote the bible.
You'd think he would have thought to keep a journal.

Click to expand...

I find the Father of Jesus, aka God of the Bible, does Not need a journal from anyone because according to Scripture God is the Author of the Bible who inspired men to write. The Bible writers are God's secretaries.

Marcion said:

You cannot base your ideas about "Christianity" in the first century on texts that were made decades later. Acts is a product of second century Christianity and so are many additions to the gospels of Luke and Matthew. The historical words of Jesus are less likely found outside of the Q-lite text.

Click to expand...

I find according to Scripture the Bible was completed by John at the 'end of the first century' not later.
Plus, gospel writer Luke forewarns us at Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 that once the apostles would be off the scene, and they were off the 2nd-century scene, so it was Christendom, not Bible text that developed after the 1st-century writings were completed.

metis said:

Trying to define "conscience" is about as "easy" as trying to define "soul". Secondly, if conscience was fully "intuitive" then there would be no variations of conscience, so that position is unrealistic, imo. Most Christians and Christian denominations believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet there are thousands of denominations and billions of people with all sorts of ideas.

Conscience is not monolithic as one can clearly see for themselves if they get into comparative religions. What's moral in one religion may be totally immoral in another, plus I certainly don't take the position myself that one religion has all "the answers".

Thirdly, we are to be judged by what we as individuals believe and do, not which church we walk into, so it is indeed important to follow our informed conscience. I don't know of a single church that believes otherwise as every church teaches what it believes is right.

Finally, the Church never left Aquinas, so I have no idea where you got that from. We very much are to use reason along with the other steps I mentioned.

Click to expand...

I asked you to enlighten me on the Catholic Church's position on conscience. In two posts, you have yet to do that. I'll ask the question another way: In post 25 of this thread, Vouthon wrote his understanding of the Church's position. Do you agree with this statement as the Church's position or do you want to substitute another?

Catholicism is a religion of conscience. For us, conscience = the voice of God. All human beings have consciences and so all human beings are capable of being saved by the grace of God. As explained by one scholar, Lyons (2009): “conscience is the whole internal conscious process by which first principles of moral right and wrong, learnt intuitively by synderesis [a functional intuitive capacity], are applied to some action now contemplated in order to produce a moral verdict on that action, known as conscientia." (p.47)

joe1776 said:

I asked you to enlighten me on the Catholic Church's position on conscience. In two posts, you have yet to do that. I'll ask the question another way: In post 25 of this thread, Vouthon wrote his understanding of the Church's position. Do you agree with this statement as the Church's position or do you want to substitute another?

Catholicism is a religion of conscience. For us, conscience = the voice of God. All human beings have consciences and so all human beings are capable of being saved by the grace of God. As explained by one scholar, Lyons (2009): “conscience is the whole internal conscious process by which first principles of moral right and wrong, learnt intuitively by synderesis [a functional intuitive capacity], are applied to some action now contemplated in order to produce a moral verdict on that action, known as conscientia." (p.47)

Click to expand...

I do believe I covered this quite thoroughly in my last post, plus let me remind you that Catholicism is simply not monolithic nor Gestapo-like whereas we just sit around waiting for someone to tell us what to think.

My operational paradigm is science as I'm a retired anthropologist, and in science we operate mainly out of objectively-derived "reason". I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant faith that taught against any belief in evolution, and the very first time I ran across the idea that the acceptance of evolution and Christian faith can be meshed is with a Catholic priest I happen to run across at a bowling alley back in the summer of 1962. Six years later I left my church but didn't convert to Catholicism until seven years after that.

Again, and for the final time, "conscience" is almost impossible to define with any certainty of being correct, and the Church has its take on this but that doesn't mean that its take is correct and that one cannot have some doubts or some different hypotheses.

So, what you quoted above could be accurate, partially accurate, or not accurate at all. To say "I don't know" is not a weakness-- it's actually a strength because it leaves one open to try and learn more.

metis said:

...Again, and for the final time, "conscience" is almost impossible to define with any certainty of being correct, and the Church has its take on this but that doesn't mean that its take is correct and that one cannot have some doubts or some different hypotheses.

Click to expand...

I asked for your explanation of the Catholic teachings on conscience and you gave me two posts on YOUR thoughts on conscience. I then quoted Vouthon's explanation of the Catholic position on conscience and asked if you agreed or had a different version. Your answer is:

So, what you quoted above could be accurate, partially accurate, or not accurate at all. To say "I don't know" is not a weakness-- it's actually a strength because it leaves one open to try and learn more.

Click to expand...

Well, that depends on whether one ought to know. Since you claimed expertise on the Catholic faith, you ought to know the Catholic position on the most important moral issue standing between the Church and its faithful. In fact, Vouthon claims that "Catholicism is a religion of conscience."

Back in post 55, you recommended a book entitled "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide." If the Church's position is as Vouthon described it (conscience as moral intuition), then informing the conscience would be both unnecessary and impossible. Impossible because we can only inform and teach the reasoning-learning faculty of our conscious minds. We can't teach intuition.

joe1776 said:

Back in post 55, you recommended a book entitled "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide." If the Church's position is as Vouthon described it (conscience as moral intuition), then informing the conscience would be both unnecessary and impossible. Impossible because we can only inform and teach the reasoning-learning faculty of our conscious minds. We can't teach intuition.

Click to expand...

Now read carefully if you will, and this will be last post on this with you:

II. THE FORMATION OF CONSCIENCE

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1784 The education of the conscience is a lifelong task. From the earliest years, it awakens the child to the knowledge and practice of the interior law recognized by conscience. Prudent education teaches virtue; it prevents or cures fear, selfishness and pride, resentment arising from guilt, and feelings of complacency, born of human weakness and faults. The education of the conscience guarantees freedom and engenders peace of heart.

1785 In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path, we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord's Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church... -- Catechism of the Catholic Church - Moral conscience

Please note the underlined words and phrases.

metis said:

Trying to define "conscience" is about as "easy" as trying to define "soul". Secondly, if conscience was fully "intuitive" then there would be no variations of conscience, so that position is unrealistic, imo. Most Christians and Christian denominations believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet there are thousands of denominations and billions of people with all sorts of ideas...................

Click to expand...

I find the word conscience comes from the Greek word syneidesis: drawn from 'syn' (with) and eidesis (knowledge).
So, co-knowlege or knowledge of oneself. Look at oneself and have a judgement about oneself.
Romans 9:1 mentions one's conscience can bear witness with the person in holy spirit. So, conscience judges.
So, unless damaged, we come equipped with an inborn conscience, that inward sense for right or for wrong.
A conscience can become hardened and calloused like flesh seared by a hot branding iron, becoming unfeeling.
That is why a person can end up with going into total moral collapse.
If one's conscience is Not educated it can thus become an un-safe guide in judgement matters and moral values.
I like this quote from Robert Heinlein (1959) Starship Troopers which says in part:
" you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. You were Not born with it......We acquire moral sense.......... through training, experience, and hard sweat of mind."
So, to me a Bible-trained conscience is the best moral compass to guide and direct - Psalms 119:105.

metis said:

Now read carefully if you will...

Click to expand...

This is amusing. You finally answered the question I asked in the way I expected you to answer in the first place but you need to imply that you've been saying this all along and I haven't been listening: "Now read carefully if you will..."

Yes, Aquinas was of the opinion that the judgments of conscience were products of reason. Plato, Kant and most moral philosophers over the years agreed with him. If he was right, then the Church could certainly "inform the conscience."

But Aquinas was probably wrong. The judgments of conscience are almost certainly intuitive and not products of reason; and I think that Vouthon's version of the current Church's position on conscience supports the intuitionist theory as does scientific research over the past 30 years.

A Catholic soldier goes to war, fighting for what he believes to be a noble cause. Then, he is ordered to kill an innocent civilian. He is immediately troubled. The order feels wrong. This feeling emerges immediately as intuition from his unconscious mind. We refer to this moral intuition as our conscience.

The judgment of wrong was not a product of the slow, deliberate reasoning mind. It was not a thoughtful analysis of his Catholic training on the Bible's commandment on killing. In fact, unless the soldier is a sociopath and has no conscience, it will not matter that he is Catholic. He could be any other religion or an atheist.

URAVIP2ME said:

If one's conscience is Not educated it can thus become an un-safe guide in judgement matters and moral values.
I like this quote from Robert Heinlein (1959) Starship Troopers which says in part:
" you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. You were Not born with it......We acquire moral sense.......... through training, experience, and hard sweat of mind."
So, to me a Bible-trained conscience is the best moral compass to guide and direct - Psalms 119:105.

Click to expand...

Amen, and well said, imo.