Jesus Resurrection

Jollybear · Nov 2, 2018

William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

The fact is that archeology can never prove any of the theological suppositions of the Bible.

We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean.

Lol, you want to make history myth. Why not make geneologies myth, joseph myth, moses myth, the laws myth, the kings myth, the prophets myth, harod and the temple myth, paul myth. Everything myth for goodness sakes. Its a view that makes no sense to me, nor is backed by archeology. Nor by extra biblical sources that act as other puzzle pieces.

Also dont act like in modern times the discapline of doing history is done but ancients never wrote history. If thats your view, that is absolutely rediculoius to me.

The OT is so not in any way historical. Moses, which is an Egyptian name, is considered a myth. There is no historical information there. Just superstitions from ancient tribes.

The mosaic laws, the isrealites he led, are they myth too?

Jollybear · Nov 2, 2018

SkepticThinker said:
There's nothing wrong with me telling it.
It just would not be a FIRSTHAND/EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT. That is the point here.

Point taken. I already understand.

But, if you tell others the same thing your sister told you, whats the issue? Why should it be hard to accept?

joelr · Nov 3, 2018

Jollybear said:
So just to be clear, your view is that ALL people at FIRST worshiped the sun? NO ONE worshiped what they believed to be a God above the sun or other parts of creation?

I just told you what we know about early religion is bits and pieces. We know of sun, animal and goddess worship. The goddess might have been the first human type diety worshipped and eventually a sky-father was invented.

Jollybear said:
So, NO ONE held different views at this same time the goddess view was made?

Ancient religion was based on the things that encompassed peoples lives, animals for food, the sun for light and warmth and a goddess for fertility.

Jollybear said:
So, it was likely ALL people at first worshiped the sun and not one person disagreed and held a different view?

You seem to think we are talking about modern people. These people lived on the land and lived and died by nature. they didn't know the sun was a star, they thought it was some sort of god-like being.

Why would you make up a different god when the sun-god is showing up every day and allowing you to get warmth, light and whatever else? Why would you **** off the most important thing in your world by making up a new god to worship?

Jollybear said:
Ok, some peoples worshiped the sun, what are you proving by this?

All cultures has elements of sun worship.

You already know the thesis - much of the modern religions are myths that have roots in sun worship.
Like a savior god dying and rising after 3 days. That is solar mythology transferred to a more modern religion just like the Greeks, Romans, Persians, syrians and others did. The Jews did it too.

Jollybear said:
All this is, is assertion. Sorry, theres no proof of this statement. You gave none. Do you expect me just to accept what you say as fact or something? Not a chance.

I'm showing you where some of these myths originated. You can do whatever you want with the knowledge. I don't expect anything of you.
There are probably people who still think the universe is turtles all the way down.
I don't care. I've provided plenty of evidence to back up the solar deity claim.

Jollybear said:
There you go again overusing this word "probable". You have no idea what your talking about.

No I'm well versed in probability theory. The historicity field can never prove events 100% so they make statements based on probabilities. The probability of George Washington being a historical figure is high for different reasons.
The probability of all savior demigods being the result of cultural diffusion is very high.

Jollybear said:
The fact is IF i was not a christian, i STILL WOULD NOT adhere to the mythic structure view of the bible. LISTEN TO ME VERY CAREFULLY. If i was a naturalist/agnostic/atheist/or diest, whatever, i would NOT adhere to mythicism view of the bible. I utterly reject that hypotheses.

Well you have provided literally no proof against the mythicist theory. You havent dealt with the commonality of the dying -resurrected savior myth along with all the other borrowed mythical elements or the fact the Jesus scores an 18 out of 22 on the myth scale or the clear mythic literary structure of the gospels or the direct passage by passage comparison of the OT and NT proving that Jesus is a re-write of Moses and Elija.
You haven't given any evidence to suggest Jesus was a man. Among many other topics.
So that means that you like to believe in things that are unproven, unlikely, have low probability and not supported by facts, history, or anything else.
Not everyone is logical, scientific or rational minded. It's why so many people believe in Roswell or Joe Smith with his golden plates and mormonism

Jollybear said:
Heres what view i would adhere to if i was not a christian: the bible is historical structure, ALL of it, with NATURAL phenomona's that took place that was misunderstood by ancients and thought to be from God. The phenomona's wer real, but natural.

Archeology and history are saying the bible is not historical.
I'll stick with the science. Do you also distrust the astronomers and astro physicists? Maybe the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun like that say. Do you not listen to planetary scientists either, maybe the Earth is really flat like it mentions in the bible.

Jollybear said:
The reason i dont even hold that view is because ive had spiritual, veridical experiences that tell me these things come from God. That God, soul, spirits are real.

Our brains hallucinate reality even when we are awake. Your brain can give you any experience it wants to. Any vision or feeling. People in all religions report visitations from their personal deities.
People also report seeing Big Foot.
Anecdotal. You want to use that as proof?
Great. I wrote down a 15 digit number. Summon your ghost and have him tell you the number and post it.
Otherwise get that nonsense out of my face.

Jollybear said:
Wheres the evidence of that? You just keep saying it.

huh? you still can't figure this out, or confirm this thing everyone knows?

Jollybear said:
Where is it documented that the sun stays down anywhere at any month for 3 days?

you really can't just read the wiki page?
Solstice - Wikipedia

Jollybear said:
This video, exodus decoded and real mount sinai is the evidence.

HA HA HA HA I know that guy, he's a journalist. He claimed to have found JESUS also, it was a huge scam. He makes money off of gulliable idiots.
That Exodus stuff"
"Its claims and methods were widely criticized by Biblical scholars and by mainstream scientists."

and his reputation:
Jacobovici is a very colorful movie producer. He is famous for his sensationalist television program, the “Naked Archaeologist.” Having watched the program, I can attest to the fact that he does not appear naked in the show, and it is equally obvious that he is not an archaeologist! He has been labeled by archaeologists working in Israel as a con man, charlatan, scam artist, publicity hound, and even worse. He should not be taken seriously, but because of his sensationalistic approach, the news media loves his programming.

In 2007 he released a video and book that alleged the family tomb of Jesus was found in the East Talpiyot neighborhood of Jerusalem and it included an ossuary with the bones of Jesus. This program was a misguided attack on the deity of the Lord Jesus and His bodily resurrection. It has, however, been thoroughly refuted by a number of people. See: The So-Called Jesus Family Tomb Rediscovered in Jerusalem

Wow, this from the guy who made a big stink about sources?

Jollybear said:
How do you know what "most" believed? You like to over use the word probable too. Which you keep getting that wrong with regards to me. If your gonna believe something, atleast try to be accurate.

"Be accurate" as you copy-paste from a known con-man?

I don't care if you don't understand how historicity works. It's always judged by probabilities, different factors weighed in - does the stories look like history or does it write like myth, are there coroborating writings, is it a supernatural tale.

Richard Carrier put the likelyhood of Jesus being a myth at 2 in 3.
This is how we talk about history, probabilities. Your feelings towards it are not a consideration.
Early humans did not know what the sun was and seemed to think it was some type of deity moving around the sky, allowing light and heat. It makes perfect sense that this object was the focalpoint of their praise and worship.
They didn't know it would come back hot every spring and save them from winter?
They developed religions, myths and sacrificial rituals to try and please it.

Jollybear said:
The point is, the bible shows along with the archeology that Yahweh and ashara wer both worshiped

.

Yes at that point in time the Israelites were worshipping those 2 gods. They were just random tribes though. We already know there was a sect of Israelites who were worshiping Yahweh because of the OT. But the OT says they were 100% monotheists and all of those people were Yahweh all the way.

But that wasn't the case, they were divided and the majority had beliefs in a goddess as well. It seems they switched because things were going so bad they needed a new theology:

Jollybear said:
This is amazing, just act like you know what most people believed back then.

It's called reading.
What's amazing is that you can't seem to figure out I just got that information from the worlds leading biblical OT archeologist?
The most experienced OT archeologist said their discoveries SHOWED WHAT MOST PEOPLE WERE WORSHIPING BACK THEN?????????????????????
"Most people" in terms of the Israelite tribes. Most people who were Israelites.

Jollybear said:
I think you should question your own assumptions. Theres a wide veriety of beliefs back then,

My beliefs are from questioning my assumptions. Also I don't really have assumptions, I let the people in each field who are qualified make most of the assumptions.
The historians show that solar mythology is traced back to ALL cultures.
Somehow this isn't good for you, you don't seem to like this fact so you make it into "my" assumption. But I'm just using historical knowledge of the religious eras.
What little we know does show sun worship everywhere.

joelr · Nov 3, 2018

DECEMBER 22 – 25: THE DEATH AND BIRTH OF THE UNCONQUERED SUN

SOL INVICTUS – THE UNCONQUERED SUN
The Sun will “die” at midnight on December 21, but don’t panic, it will “rebirth” on midnight December 24. This occurs at the beginning of Winter every year for the past 4.6 billion years. It is called the Winter Solstice, “sun stood still”, and is considered the shortest day in the year in terms of hours of sunlight. It is a three-day period when the hours of daylight are at its shortest and the hours of night (darkness) are at its longest. Noticeably, the sun progressively sets earlier each evening after June 22 (The Summer Solstice – longest hours of sunlight) and night fall comes the earliest on December 21. Hence daylight savings time put our clock one hour back to make up for the shorter hours of day light.

WORSHIPPING THE SUN

In the solar myth, the death of the “old sun” occurs as the length of daylight decreases and becomes its lowest at the Winter Solstice which begins on the midnight of December 21 (early morning December 22) and ends on Midnight December 24 (early morning December 25)
The sun stop moving south on December 22, it is then at its lowest point in the Northern Hemisphere, residing in the vicinity of the Southern Cross. It stays at this lowest point for three days (December 22, 23, 24 appearing to not moving south or north and was considered “dead”

It “returned to life” at midnight on December 24/ early morning December 25, when it begins its northern journey again and the hours of sunlight start to lengthen. Therefore, the ancient said that the SUN was born on December 25.
Solar deities and Sun worship can be found throughout most of recorded history in various forms, including the Egyptian Ra, Mithra in Persia, Apollo the Romans, Isis the Hindu Surya, the Japanes Amaterasu, the GermanicSol, and the Aztec Tonatiuh, and controversially, more recent, Jesus in “Christianity”.

joelr · Nov 3, 2018

Jollybear said:
Lol, you want to make history myth. Why not make geneologies myth, joseph myth, moses myth, the laws myth, the kings myth, the prophets myth, harod and the temple myth, paul myth. Everything myth for goodness sakes. Its a view that makes no sense to me, nor is backed by archeology. Nor by extra biblical sources that act as other puzzle pieces.

I've never said anything about making history myth. Most history we have evidence for and it doesn't read like myth.
There are some things that could go either way, like the Buddha.
We don't think that the Jewish laws are myth but we do think the stories of mythological characters are of course - myth.

The temple was real and was destroyed as we have records from all sorts of different groups.

Paul isn't believed to be a myth, his original letters seem accurate, they seem historical and written by someone. He claims to have seen some scripture.
It's the gospels that are mythology.
Now regarding the OT you said "nor is backed by archeology" but I just posted an article from the Jureusalem Times saying there is actually no evidence for Exodus and the leading archeologist saying archeology can prove no aspect of the OT as historical and the main characters like Abraham, Moses and the Patriarchs are probably stories created to tell stories. That actually would be a myth.
So saying it's backed by archeology is a full-out lie.

Jollybear said:
Also dont act like in modern times the discapline of doing history is done but ancients never wrote history. If thats your view, that is absolutely rediculoius to me.

The mosaic laws, the isrealites he led, are they myth too?

William Denver said:

"
We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean.

The Bible is didactic literature; it wants to teach, not just to describe. We try to make the Bible something it is not, and that's doing an injustice to the biblical writers"

so while some ancients wrote history the OT is not history.

The Mosaic laws are laws that people obviously followed. The part that's myth is a guy coming down a mountain and god lightening bolted the commandments onto rock tablets.
The "Yahweh elitists" who wrote the OT obviously wrote a story about Moses getting commandments. We don't know where they came from? Maybe an Egyptian religion had similar rules and they thought they would use them. Maybe they sat around for years and came up with some laws based on knowledge they had? Some scholars believe they came from the Hittites culture. Who knows?

Moses isn't real. Not the way he's written about in story:

"We have no direct archeological evidence. "Moses" is an Egyptian name. Some of the other names in the narratives are Egyptian, and there are genuine Egyptian elements. But no one has found a text or an artifact in Egypt itself or even in the Sinai that has any direct connection. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think it does mean what happened was rather more modest. And the biblical writers have enlarged the story."

This is archeology. The history field is much more certain about the mythical nature of Moses and the Patriarchs.
For the full story you would need to read T. Thompsons book on Moses and the P. I dont' care to get that in depth. To me it's as obviously myth as Hinduism or the Norse Pantheon of Germanic gods.

Jollybear · Nov 3, 2018

joelr said:
I just told you what we know about early religion is bits and pieces. We know of sun, animal and goddess worship. The goddess might have been the first human type diety worshipped and eventually a sky-father was invented.

Your making me wanna cry

Ok....so, at first everyone believed the same thing.

I dont agree.

Ancient religion was based on the things that encompassed peoples lives, animals for food, the sun for light and warmth and a goddess for fertility.

What about earth for fertility? Anyway, that was not the ONLY ancient religion or view back then. Just like today, lots of views. Its kinda strange, somehow mankind back then wer like zombies believing the same stuff you have it look like.

You seem to think we are talking about modern people. These people lived on the land and lived and died by nature.

We live on the land too and we die by nature too. We just have a bit more technology.

they didn't know the sun was a star, they thought it was some sort of god-like being.

All people didnt believe that. Yea, some people did, stupid people that is.

Why would you make up a different god when the sun-god is showing up every day and allowing you to get warmth, light and whatever else? Why would you **** off the most important thing in your world by making up a new god to worship?

Lol.....why you ask, heres why, because some people wer smart enough to realize the sun was not a God with a authoritarian personality. Wasnt like a ball up in the sky with a happy face on it.

All cultures has elements of sun worship.

Hmmm, thats true, but missleading the way its put.

The hebrews worshiped the sun, yes, but did so in direct disobydience to Yahweh . Just because SOME people wer stupid dont mean there is no real God that transcends the universe.

You already know the thesis - much of the modern religions are myths that have roots in sun worship.

I dont agree. The root is a God that transcends the universe.

Like a savior god dying and rising after 3 days. That is solar mythology transferred to a more modern religion just like the Greeks, Romans, Persians, syrians and others did. The Jews did it too.

I'm showing you where some of these myths originated. You can do whatever you want with the knowledge. I don't expect anything of you.
There are probably people who still think the universe is turtles all the way down.
I don't care. I've provided plenty of evidence to back up the solar deity claim.

Just because you talk about flat earthers and the universe being turtles and you compare that to my views to paint your posts to have the look of credability, dont mean it does. Like i said, i can see through all that.

You gave me no prove. You quote sources, lol, but those sources gave no proof.

No I'm well versed in probability theory.

Im well versed in probability theory, mne, mne, mne, mne, mne.

Look, probable is a assumption and your probably is also based on your foundational other assumption of naturalism.

My probable says that your probable is wrong.

The historicity field can never prove events 100% so they make statements based on probabilities.

The probability of George Washington being a historical figure is high for different reasons.
The probability of all savior demigods being the result of cultural diffusion is very high.

Well you have provided literally no proof against the mythicist theory. You havent dealt with the commonality of the dying -resurrected savior myth along with all the other borrowed mythical elements or the fact the Jesus scores an 18 out of 22 on the myth scale or the clear mythic literary structure of the gospels or the direct passage by passage comparison of the OT and NT proving that Jesus is a re-write of Moses and Elija.

I have dealt with these things. I sure have. Similarities dont prove barrowing. And they dont prove myth and they dont prove the resurrection did not happen.

You haven't given any evidence to suggest Jesus was a man. Among many other topics.

Yes i have. I gave that too subduction. Not you. I dont know if you read it. But theres a whole list of extra biblical sources referencing Jesus. Thus showing he was a historical figure.

So that means that you like to believe in things that are unproven, unlikely, have low probability and not supported by facts, history, or anything else.
Not everyone is logical, scientific or rational minded. It's why so many people believe in Roswell or Joe Smith with his golden plates and mormonism

So that means that you like to believe in things that are unproven (like mythicism), unlikely, have low probability and not supported by facts, history, or anything else.
Not everyone is logical, scientific or rational minded.

Archeology and history are saying the bible is not historical.
I'll stick with the science. Do you also distrust the astronomers and astro physicists? Maybe the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun like that say. Do you not listen to planetary scientists either, maybe the Earth is really flat like it mentions in the bible.

Oh my goodness. Archeology does support the bible. The bible does not say the earth is flat. The bible does not say the sun revolves around the earth. The bible does not say the earth is center of universe. It does not say the universe is turtles all way down.

Our brains hallucinate reality even when we are awake. Your brain can give you any experience it wants to. Any vision or feeling. People in all religions report visitations from their personal deities.
People also report seeing Big Foot.
Anecdotal. You want to use that as proof?
Great. I wrote down a 15 digit number. Summon your ghost and have him tell you the number and post it.
Otherwise get that nonsense out of my face.

Nonsense? Anecdotals are the BEST evidence for a spiritual world there is!

And i said VERIDICAL. Those rule out halucinations.

And writing down a number assumes a few things. 1 that the ghost gives a crap about proving itself to you. 2, that i can control the ghost.

Both of your assumptions are wrong.

But hey, just for fun, ill take a crack gauss at the numbers. 15678. I know it isnt 15 numbers but hey, best i could do, lol.

huh? you still can't figure this out, or confirm this thing everyone knows?

you really can't just read the wiki page?
Solstice - Wikipedia

Read it. Sun staying down three days? The poles it stays down few months. Three days though? Where, what location?

HA HA HA HA I know that guy, he's a journalist. He claimed to have found JESUS also, it was a huge scam. He makes money off of gulliable idiots.
That Exodus stuff"
"Its claims and methods were widely criticized by Biblical scholars and by mainstream scientists."

and his reputation:
Jacobovici is a very colorful movie producer. He is famous for his sensationalist television program, the “Naked Archaeologist.” Having watched the program, I can attest to the fact that he does not appear naked in the show, and it is equally obvious that he is not an archaeologist! He has been labeled by archaeologists working in Israel as a con man, charlatan, scam artist, publicity hound, and even worse. He should not be taken seriously, but because of his sensationalistic approach, the news media loves his programming.

In 2007 he released a video and book that alleged the family tomb of Jesus was found in the East Talpiyot neighborhood of Jerusalem and it included an ossuary with the bones of Jesus. This program was a misguided attack on the deity of the Lord Jesus and His bodily resurrection. It has, however, been thoroughly refuted by a number of people. See: The So-Called Jesus Family Tomb Rediscovered in Jerusalem

Wow, this from the guy who made a big stink about sources?

So just ad hom the guys work in documenting, videoing raw archeology and putting historic sources together.

Thats the best you got huh? Why not refute the extremely compelling finds he documented?

"Be accurate" as you copy-paste from a known con-man?

I don't care if you don't understand how historicity works. It's always judged by probabilities, different factors weighed in - does the stories look like history or does it write like myth, are there coroborating writings, is it a supernatural tale.

Richard Carrier put the likelyhood of Jesus being a myth at 2 in 3.
This is how we talk about history, probabilities. Your feelings towards it are not a consideration.
Early humans did not know what the sun was and seemed to think it was some type of deity moving around the sky, allowing light and heat. It makes perfect sense that this object was the focalpoint of their praise and worship.
They didn't know it would come back hot every spring and save them from winter?
They developed religions, myths and sacrificial rituals to try and please it.

All ancients thought the sun was God, right? Yea, ok then.

Yes at that point in time the Israelites were worshipping those 2 gods. They were just random tribes though. We already know there was a sect of Israelites who were worshiping Yahweh because of the OT. But the OT says they were 100% monotheists and all of those people were Yahweh all the way.

Hail Yahweh! He rules above the sun! Sun can kiss my ***. Yahweh is God!

Period. Yahwah created the sun.

But that wasn't the case, they were divided and the majority had beliefs in a goddess as well. It seems they switched because things were going so bad they needed a new theology:

Things wer going so bad huh? Funny, yahwah even said "my people parish for LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. surely youd agree with yahwah on that wouldnt you?

It's called reading.
What's amazing is that you can't seem to figure out I just got that information from the worlds leading biblical OT archeologist?

Is he a flawed human? Deal with the raw finds from the video. Real raw archeology dont lie.

The most experienced OT archeologist said their discoveries SHOWED WHAT MOST PEOPLE WERE WORSHIPING BACK THEN?????????????????????
"Most people" in terms of the Israelite tribes. Most people who were Israelites.

He dont know what MOST believed.

My beliefs are from questioning my assumptions. Also I don't really have assumptions, I let the people in each field who are qualified make most of the assumptions.

Yea and the ones you quote make quite alot of assumptions.

The historians show that solar mythology is traced back to ALL cultures.
Somehow this isn't good for you, you don't seem to like this fact so you make it into "my" assumption. But I'm just using historical knowledge of the religious eras.
What little we know does show sun worship everywhere.

Your not proving that. Your just proving some peoples worshiped the sun. Thats it.

joelr · Nov 3, 2018

Jollybear said:
Your making me wanna cry

Ok....so, at first everyone believed the same thing.

I dont agree.

I'm telling you what we currently know about the earliest religions from cave inscriptions and tablets and burial rituals.
There is only evidence for animal worship, sun worship and in a later age goddess worship.
Look up "early religion" for yourself.
The first male gods appeared later. That's all we know? How hard is that to get?

Jollybear said:
What about earth for fertility? Anyway, that was not the ONLY ancient religion or view back then. Just like today, lots of views. Its kinda strange, somehow mankind back then wer like zombies believing the same stuff you have it look like.

Goddess worship was so people could pray to a deity for healthy children.
There were probably many views. What we currently know is just what I said.

there are no original religions that we know of who worship a king in the sky/kill your children sky-father like the Egyptains and Jews did.

Jollybear said:
We live on the land too and we die by nature too. We just have a bit more technology.

Yes but now WE KNOW WHAT THE SUN IS??? DER! Ancient people thought it was some type of god. It did move (they thought) and it gave them warmth and light.
Just like modern people sometimes think Jesus will answer their prayers these people thought the sun was a god who could leave at any time leaving them in darkness and cold. They didn't know it was a star and wasn't going anywhere.

This is one of the origins of worshiping things in the sky. Now people think there is a god in the sky. Well, we know space is in the sky so religious people had to move the "lower heavens" from space to another dimension.

Jollybear said:
All people didnt believe that. Yea, some people did, stupid people that is.

No, actually people did not know what we know today about the sun. The sun was the god back in ancient times.
with the dawn of civilization - the Sumerians, we started philosophy and primitive science and started figuring stuff out.
So gods became actual kings who lived in the sky.

But nomadic humans had no writing, paper, pencils, no science. They knew stuff that moved was alive. The sun and moon included.
they were not any more "stupid" then modern people who still believe religions are real.

Jollybear said:
Lol.....why you ask, heres why, because some people wer smart enough to realize the sun was not a God with a authoritarian personality. Wasnt like a ball up in the sky with a happy face on it.

Is Yahweh up in the sky with a happy face? No. I don't see Jesus either?

"Man’s nature still yearned for the need for a powerful creator and found solace in deities created in his own mind.

As man observed eclipses, comets, meteorites and other phenomena, he sometimes related to these larger, more powerful elements as substitute deities. Some people before the time of Abraham(as) had begun to worship the sun and stars as a great power. Even today, 21st June marks the Summer Solstice and will be marked by pagan festivities in parts of the world."

When talking about early religions we are talking about pre-civilization, pre-Sumerian nomadic human societies.

Jollybear said:
Hmmm, thats true, but missleading the way its put.

Jollybear said:
The hebrews worshiped the sun, yes, but did so in direct disobydience to Yahweh . Just because SOME people wer stupid dont mean there is no real God that transcends the universe.

Early religion goes way back before the Hebrews. What was above the sky wasn't space to them. It was the realm of gods - the sun, moon, stars, comets, shooting stars, and other random sights.

Jollybear said:
I dont agree. The root is a God that transcends the universe.

Our idea of "transcends the universe" changes depending on the time.
Pre-Sumerian people considered the "universe" to be the immediate land and sky. Even after civilizations started some early maps show the world as a flat sphere and the heavens are the upper atmosphere.
Once humans became scientifically literate thelogians had to keep moving the "heavens" further out. The church up until the middle ages thought the Earth was the center of the universe.
for early man a god did not need to transcend the universe, space was transcendant enough.

Our ideas about gods change with our scientific knowledge.
As uncomfortable as it obviously is for you, early man did not worship the same idea of god as some modern people. science has kicked god into a "transcendant realm". But some gods even in Jesus times existed in the upper atmosphere and on other planets.
In one story Adam is buried on Mars. Ha.

Jollybear said:
Just because you talk about flat earthers and the universe being turtles and you compare that to my views to paint your posts to have the look of credability, dont mean it does. Like i said, i can see through all that.

Jollybear said:
You gave me no prove. You quote sources, lol, but those sources gave no proof.

You have lost credibility when it comes to "sources"
I showed that the 3-day resurrection myth was part of sun worship. I showed it pre-dated Christianity. The End. You can say or believe whatever you like. I made the argument and I gave evidence.
Do you also think that all the pagan deities came up with the 3-day resurrection on their own too? LOL>

Jollybear said:
Im well versed in probability theory, mne, mne, mne, mne, mne.

Look, probable is a assumption and your probably is also based on your foundational other assumption of naturalism.

Apparently you don't know. How many supernatural stories have turned out to be true? Uh - ZERO. What is the probability that Sai Baba is really magic (he has millions of eyewitnesses from the 1900s) uh.....ZERO. No supernatural thing has ever proven true.
So naturalism wins. But we can still examine the evidence. Oh, we did, it's all copied mythology with zero outside evidence. That is a complete fail on all accounts.

Jollybear said:
My probable says that your probable is wrong.

OT - shown to be not history.
NT copied from OT and copied from pagan myth
other - none
so show some evidence to make it probable. So far all evidence has failed.

Jollybear said:
I have dealt with these things. I sure have. Similarities dont prove barrowing. And they dont prove myth and they dont prove the resurrection did not happen.

No, the mythic structure of the bible along with the obvious paganism myths show the resurrection didn't happen.
Also supernatural things never happen, so one would need extraordinary proof. Not a bunch of myths copied from older myths.

Jollybear said:
Yes i have. I gave that too subduction. Not you. I dont know if you read it. But theres a whole list of extra biblical sources referencing Jesus. Thus showing he was a historical figure.

There are none. Any reference is just mentioning the fact that there are Christians or are known forgeries. Pick one, go ahead.

Jollybear said:
So that means that you like to believe in things that are unproven (like mythicism), unlikely, have low probability and not supported by facts, history, or anything else.
Not everyone is logical, scientific or rational minded

.

Wow, you copied my post and re-posted it. That's so clever.
You know at this point you can't counter my arguments so now you ARE pretending. Because I have provided facts and scholarship and shown your sources to be wrong. I even have shown scholarship giving a high probability and you haven't been able to counter his argument. So you are actually lying now. I thought Christians had some thing about lying?

If not make an argument, something better than "I know you are but what am I?"

joelr · Nov 3, 2018

Jollybear said:
Oh my goodness. Archeology does support the bible. The bible does not say the earth is flat. The bible does not say the sun revolves around the earth. The bible does not say the earth is center of universe. It does not say the universe is turtles all way down.

What's wrong with you?
I just posted the leading biblical archeologist saying it DOES NOT?
You've been broken down into base denial?
I didn't say the bible said "turtles all the way down"

but

Wiki

"Articles arguing that geocentrism was the biblical perspective appeared in some early creation science newsletters pointing to some passages in the Bible, which, when taken literally, indicate that the daily apparent motions of the Sun and the Moon are due to their actual motions around the Earth rather than due to the rotation of the Earth about its axis. For example, in Joshua 10:12, the Sun and Moon are said to stop in the sky, and in Psalms the world is described as immobile.[52] Psalms 93:1 says in part "the world is established, firm and secure".) Contemporary advocates for such religious beliefs include Robert Sungenis These people subscribe to the view that a plain reading of the Bible contains an accurate account of the manner in which the universe was created and requires a geocentric worldview. "

Jollybear said:
Nonsense? Anecdotals are the BEST evidence for a spiritual world there is!

And i said VERIDICAL. Those rule out halucinations.

Well if the evidence is only anecdotal then my original statement is correct after all - there is no historical evidence, one can only have faith.
Because we have that type of evidence for Big Foot, Roswell crashed ufo w/alien bodies, fairies, Mothman and possibly even Superman.

VERIDICAL means truthful. Anything one sees of feels can be a hallucination without empirical evidence.
Just because someone has a hallucination, hears voices, sees an angel, whatever and decides to call it "verdical" means nothing.
Someone could claim to have had a "verdical" experience where god told them to kill a bunch of non-believers. Who cares if you call it "truthful"??
It's a damn hallucination or some such. Why do you even want to debate something so stupid?
If I saw a god appear before me I wouldn't TELL PEOPLE as if it was evidence of something???? I would go to a doctor.

Jollybear said:
And writing down a number assumes a few things. 1 that the ghost gives a crap about proving itself to you. 2, that i can control the ghost.

Both of your assumptions are wrong.

But hey, just for fun, ill take a crack gauss at the numbers. 15678. I know it isnt 15 numbers but hey, best i could do, lol.

Well you tried.
Of course when you ask people for supernatural proof they say "why would the ghost care about proof?
Well, let's see. The gospels are FULL of this ghost trying to convince non-believers, performing all sorts of magic. But the stories left behind look all sorts of suspiciously like mythology. So this ghost obviously wants to convince people of it's reality.
So I think my assumption is actually not bad - that this ghost does want to convince people.
So let's have this ghost do some magic so we can all spread the gospel.
The people back then got miracles and magic. Jesus said he would be back within the lifetime of the people in the gospels.
Most people don't believe in supernatural stuff anymore, so why not come back and convince everyone?

How about Romulus - Romulus, come back and guess my 15 digit number!

Jollybear said:
Read it. Sun staying down three days? The poles it stays down few months. Three days though? Where, what location?

Oh god. Anywhere on Earth during your winter. The first 3 days. The sun rises to the lowest point then for 3 days rises to that low point. Then it starts getting higher each day. In winter. Where ever winter is depending where on earth you are.
It's different at the poles. These sun worship reigions started in Africa, Middle East, Europe, places where the winter solstice happens.

Jollybear said:
So just ad hom the guys work in documenting, videoing raw archeology and putting historic sources together.

Yeah he's a known scam artist?? He claimed to have found Jesus and it was a fraud and he got rich off it.
Do some research, I'm tired of doing all your research for you?

Why would I need to research his work when all scholars have already done it?
this is YOUR source, you need to show it's credible. He has no phd and has been completely debunked.
I posted a great source from the leading biblical archeologist covering multiple topics on the OT and your hung up on some scam artist???

William Denver completely debunked the ENTIRE OT.

But let's say he's credible.
Well guess what his new book is?

The Lost Gospel: Decoding the Ancient Text That Reveals Jesus' Marriage to Mary the Magdalene,

So since he's so credible now we can say that Jesus was married to Mary Magdeline!! Wow, I didn't know that! Amazing!

He's my new credible source to show Jesus wasn't what the gospels say he was.

Jollybear said:
Thats the best you got huh? Why not refute the extremely compelling finds he documented?

Yeah you are right. Jesus was definitely married to Mary Magdeline.
What a nice couple! I wonder how many kids they had?
Do you think she was a good cook?

Jollybear said:
All ancients thought the sun was God, right? Yea, ok then.

Once again......blah blah...we don't know what everyone thought but what we do know shows sun worship across all cultures blah blah blah.....bkah......

Jollybear said:
Hail Yahweh! He rules above the sun! Sun can kiss my ***. Yahweh is God!

Period. Yahwah created the sun.

Uh Huh. In the OT Yahweh created the sun. In Norse mythology Odin created it.
In Greece Zeus created the sun.
Wow, that proves.....uh...nothing.....except humans like to write fiction about gods in the heavens.

Jollybear said:
Things wer going so bad huh? Funny, yahwah even said "my people

Yes things were bad for the Jews

"That doesn't mean that that the destruction didn't take place and that it wasn't a watershed event. One would have thought at that time that it was the end of the people of Israel—with elites carried away into captivity and ordinary people impoverished. It would have seemed to have been the end, but it was rather the beginning. Because it was in exile, precisely, that those who wrote the Bible looked back, collected the archives they had, rethought it all, reformulated it, and out of that intellectual reconstruction comes early Judaism."

It was a bad time, they were conquered and the temple destroyed.

Jollybear said:
I Deal with the raw finds from the video. Real raw archeology dont lie.

Right and so now we know that Jesus was married because raw archeology doesn't lie.

Except the archeology of the entire OT which I posted and you completely ignored.

You just said "raw archeology doesn't lie." well there you go, read William Denvers article, exodus or not EVERYTHING ELSE DIDN'T HAPPEN, you just admitted to the reality of archeology?!?!

Do you see how bad your confirmation bias is? There is a mountain of archeology saying the OT is just a myth and one little possibility of evidence for Exodus and you're all like "YAY archeology, it's the truth!"
Yet somehow you don't mean all of the archeology in the Nova article???
I've never seen such obvious bias towards trying to make something true and completely ignoring any other information?
That guy ISN'T EVEN a real archeologist??????

Hey, your guy also found Jesus along with his wife and kids. Amazing!!

Jollybear said:
He dont know what MOST believed.

Actually he did. You just said "raw archeology doesn't lie."
Well William Denver's raw archeology has shown the common folk in the tribes were mostly polytheistic. Going house to house we see articacts of gods and goddesses in each home.

1 post ago you just confirmed the reality of archeology. Now you're trying to deny it??
Are you ill?

Jollybear said:
Yea and the ones you quote make quite alot of assumptions.

Assumptions based on facts. Sometimes we call them theories.
All proven. All sourced.

Jollybear said:
Your not proving that. Your just proving some peoples worshiped the sun. Thats it.

Yeah, solar myths go back to the earliest religious beliefs.
In fact we can see one instance of how other separate gods were formed:

"The Prophet Abraham(as) grew up in a polytheistic society and his people sought their Creator in the nature around them, but without satisfaction as we read in the Qur’an:
And when the night darkened upon him, he saw a star. He said: ‘This is my Lord!’ But when it set, he said: ‘I like not those that set.’ And when he saw the moon rise with spreading light, he said: ‘This is my Lord.’ But when it set, he said, ‘If my Lord guide me not, I shall surely be of the people who go astray.’ And when he saw the sun rise with spreading light, he said: ‘This is my Lord, this is the greatest.’ But when it set, he said, ‘O my people, surely I am clear of that which you associate with God. I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, being ever inclined to God, and I am not of those who associate gods with God.’ (Ch.6:Vs.77-80)

These verses illustrate the extent to which society at that time (around 4000 years ago) had fallen into the worship of celestial bodies. The insight that he was given showed his understanding that bodies that set below the horizon could not exert their influence continually over man, whereas the Creator was (and is) omnipresent. The verses show how Abraham(as) used his arguments to show his people the futility of their ancient beliefs as he had been the recipient of direct revelation; it was not the case that Abraham(as) himself had been groping to find his Creator through this process,. This is reinforced in a later verse in the same chapter:

So a separate god was created for Judaism. Now was this separate god inspired by a Egyptian god - probably -but they can't say that in the Qur'an.
It has to seem like they came onto their god by themselves.

Now just like Paul, Abraham also claimed revelation
(wow what a coincidence) to make his beliefs seem real. This is the same process with Paul and Jesus. Back then hallucinations/revelations were accepted as real. Now we know it's all made-up stuff.
So Abraham didn't like solar gods and revelationed up a Yahweh.
It would be interesting to see what other gods were around 4000 years ago, to see where he took his ideas from?

joelr · Nov 4, 2018

Jollybear said:
Y

Your not proving that. Your just proving some peoples worshiped the sun. Thats it.

https://www.ancient.eu/religion/
This article from the History channel is interesting as it doesn't mention solar gods at all.
They say monotheism was discussed by a Greek:
"Xenophanes believed there was "one god, among gods and men the greatest, not at all like mortals in body or mind"

and in Hinduism there was always one supreme god Brahman.

but.
"Monotheism did not make sense to the ancient people aside from the visionaries and prophets of Judaism. Most people, at least as far as can be discerned from the written and archaeological record, believed in many gods, each of whom had a special sphere of influence. In one's personal life there is not just one other person who provides for one's needs; one interacts with many different kinds of people in order to achieve wholeness and maintain a living."

Christianity:
This theme of life-after-death and life coming from death and, of course, the judgment after death, gained the greatest fame through the evangelical efforts of St. Paul who spread the word of the dying and reviving god Jesus Christ throughout ancient Palestine, Asia Minor, Greece, and Rome (c. 42-62 CE). Paul's vision of the figure of Jesus, the anointed son of God who dies to redeem humanity, was drawn from the earlier belief systems and informed the understanding of the scribes who would write the books which make up the Bible.

The religion of Christianity made standard a belief in an afterlife and set up an organized set of rituals by which an adherent could gain everlasting life. In so doing, the early Christians were simply following in the footsteps of the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Greeks, and the Romans all of whom had their own stylized rituals for the worship of their gods.

But he seems to be missing a large piece of religious history because the Wiki page on sun gods is vast:
Solar deity - Wikipedia
Solar deities and sun worship can be found throughout most of recorded history in various forms.

There is an entire section on Christianity and solar pagan worship.

Jollybear · Nov 4, 2018

joelr said:
Religion in the Ancient World
This article from the History channel is interesting as it doesn't mention solar gods at all.
They say monotheism was discussed by a Greek:
"Xenophanes believed there was "one god, among gods and men the greatest, not at all like mortals in body or mind"

and in Hinduism there was always one supreme god Brahman.

but.
"Monotheism did not make sense to the ancient people aside from the visionaries and prophets of Judaism. Most people, at least as far as can be discerned from the written and archaeological record, believed in many gods, each of whom had a special sphere of influence. In one's personal life there is not just one other person who provides for one's needs; one interacts with many different kinds of people in order to achieve wholeness and maintain a living."

Christianity:
This theme of life-after-death and life coming from death and, of course, the judgment after death, gained the greatest fame through the evangelical efforts of St. Paul who spread the word of the dying and reviving god Jesus Christ throughout ancient Palestine, Asia Minor, Greece, and Rome (c. 42-62 CE). Paul's vision of the figure of Jesus, the anointed son of God who dies to redeem humanity, was drawn from the earlier belief systems and informed the understanding of the scribes who would write the books which make up the Bible.

The religion of Christianity made standard a belief in an afterlife and set up an organized set of rituals by which an adherent could gain everlasting life. In so doing, the early Christians were simply following in the footsteps of the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Greeks, and the Romans all of whom had their own stylized rituals for the worship of their gods.

But he seems to be missing a large piece of religious history because the Wiki page on sun gods is vast:
Solar deity - Wikipedia
Solar deities and sun worship can be found throughout most of recorded history in various forms.

There is an entire section on Christianity and solar pagan worship.

Your all over the place man. Why cant you stay on course?

Your doing mental and word gymnastics. Your quite skillfull at it too. But, its not proving anything.

In this post im not gonna cut up your posts and reply because it will take too long.

You admitted that there was evidence for the exodus, but you downplayed it.

Ok, if the finds are real, does that not prove the exodus story is not a myth?

Also when i mentioned i had veridical spiritual experiences, you misrepresent that by calling it hallucinatory. Do you know what veridical anecdotes are?

joelr · Nov 4, 2018

Jollybear said:
Your all over the place man. Why cant you stay on course?

Your doing mental and word gymnastics. Your quite skillfull at it too. But, its not proving anything.

In this post im not gonna cut up your posts and reply because it will take too long.

You keep asking historical questions so I provide answers. These answers are not what you want to hear so you're making it as if the problem is me.
By "word gymnastics" you mean quoting articles written by scholarship and backing up every point with history and archeology?

With history we don't usually have "proof". We have to look at different factors and decide on the probability of something being real.
We have no actual proof that Inanna, Moses and Jesus didn't exist but we are fine with saying it's extremely unlikely.

Quipping about "proof" is disingenuous and shows you are grasping at straws.
Your "proof" issue is actually a straw man.

Jollybear said:
You admitted that there was evidence for the exodus, but you downplayed it.

If that guy has evidence for Exodus then he also has evidence Jesus was married and had kids. So while in his world Exodus may be real Jesus was just a man with a family.
You can't pick and choose. I was being silly to show how absurd your position was in backing this guy.
Jesus wasn't married because he didn't exist. The Exodus film (it's not archeology, it's a film that takes findings and puts them in the wrong historical order) isn't archeology. It's just a film.
Like Da Vinci code - IT ISNT REAL!!!

Jollybear said:
Ok, if the finds are real, does that not prove the exodus story is not a myth?

If you ask an archeologist then NO, the finds are not real. In fact they are not actually "finds" but more manipulation of artifacts and finds that actual archeologists found into a history that has been shown to be false.

This is what the biblical archeologists say:
Debunking "The Exodus Decoded"

Some of Jacobovici’s points are old hat, having been proposed before, while others are indeed new. But, alas, the presentation suffers from the same fate as other similar “documentaries”—dates are revised willy-nilly to make everything neatly come together to explain the events of the Exodus. In the end, Jacobovici does more harm than good since he mishandles the archaeological evidence, hence providing fuel to skeptics who wish to undermine the Exodus.

The Exodus Decoded is similar to The Da Vinci Code in that disparate pieces of information from the past are brought together in a story line. There is a big difference between the two, however. The Exodus Decoded is presented as factual history, whereas The Da Vinci Code is advertised as a novel. The exhibits of The Exodus Decoded do not stand up to scrutiny in the court of objective scholarship. Archaeological data are wrenched from their chronological contexts and forced into a different time frame to fit the filmmaker’s reconstruction. What is more, the film is replete with factual errors. Although the production is offered as a serious and accurate documentary, it is not accurate and it cannot be taken seriously. There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus.

So it's like Da Vinci Code, it's fake but it's pretending to be fact. This is how people get rich from religious people who are not smart enough to check with actual scientists and see if one's work has been reviewed by peers.

"There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus."

How many times did you whine about good sources? Well why can't you use William Denver as a source since you seem to want to use archeology???
You are so inconsistent and desperate to prove just one single point.

I'm sorry that the religious world just had no evidence for you to show.

I would love to use Simcha Jacobovici as a source. He also has evidence of the tomb of Jesus along with Jesus's family - a wife and several children.
If true this disproves all the gospel narratives right there. The end!

The Jesus Family Tomb - Wikipedia

But he's obviously a fraud and makes crap up.
I'm sure if I originally pointed out that we know Jesus was married and had children and I used him as a source what do you think would happen??????
Maybe you would read about how he makes stuff up to sell books? Then say he's a fraud. Do you think maybe that would happen, hmmmmmm?

On top of all that, even if a REAL archeologist had evidence for Exodus WHO CARES? It just means some people crossed a desert a long time ago?
A writer can still write fiction around the tale of people moving to another place??? So pointless?
Abraham still made up Yahweh because it says so in the Quran!!!!

Jollybear said:
Also when i mentioned i had veridical spiritual experiences, you misrepresent that by calling it hallucinatory. Do you know what veridical anecdotes are?

It's still anecdotal.
People in all cultures have NDE experiences where they report things being seen by their "spirt" that they shouldn't know, like descriptions of medical procedures.
In India people have NDE's and see Vishnu, Muslims sometimes see Mohammed and Christians see religious icongraphy related to their religion.

Many times people see no religious images but just visions of their body and the medical team. Then a bright light and loved ones.
In fact the majority do not see any religious imagery at all.

None of this relates to proving any particular religion as real or helps us see any scripture as anything but myth.
You're telling me to stay on point and you want to talk about out-of-body -experiences now??????
This isn't a discussion about an afterlife.

No one knows if there is a god or life after death. We do know that Zeus and his son Hercules are not real or any sky-father and his son and we do know all religion is metaphors, allegory, parables and myth.

SkepticThinker · Nov 5, 2018

Jollybear said:
Point taken. I already understand.

But, if you tell others the same thing your sister told you, whats the issue? Why should it be hard to accept?

Don't try to tell me something is a firsthand account when it isn't. And especially when it's written down long after the supposed event was supposed to have taken place, after being passed along orally for many years.

I ask again, have you ever played the Telephone Game?

Jollybear · Nov 5, 2018

joelr said:
You keep asking historical questions so I provide answers. These answers are not what you want to hear so you're making it as if the problem is me.
By "word gymnastics" you mean quoting articles written by scholarship and backing up every point with history and archeology?

With history we don't usually have "proof". We have to look at different factors and decide on the probability of something being real.
We have no actual proof that Inanna, Moses and Jesus didn't exist but we are fine with saying it's extremely unlikely.

Quipping about "proof" is disingenuous and shows you are grasping at straws.
Your "proof" issue is actually a straw man.

If that guy has evidence for Exodus then he also has evidence Jesus was married and had kids. So while in his world Exodus may be real Jesus was just a man with a family.
You can't pick and choose. I was being silly to show how absurd your position was in backing this guy.
Jesus wasn't married because he didn't exist. The Exodus film (it's not archeology, it's a film that takes findings and puts them in the wrong historical order) isn't archeology. It's just a film.
Like Da Vinci code - IT ISNT REAL!!!

If you ask an archeologist then NO, the finds are not real. In fact they are not actually "finds" but more manipulation of artifacts and finds that actual archeologists found into a history that has been shown to be false.

This is what the biblical archeologists say:
Debunking "The Exodus Decoded"

Some of Jacobovici’s points are old hat, having been proposed before, while others are indeed new. But, alas, the presentation suffers from the same fate as other similar “documentaries”—dates are revised willy-nilly to make everything neatly come together to explain the events of the Exodus. In the end, Jacobovici does more harm than good since he mishandles the archaeological evidence, hence providing fuel to skeptics who wish to undermine the Exodus.

The Exodus Decoded is similar to The Da Vinci Code in that disparate pieces of information from the past are brought together in a story line. There is a big difference between the two, however. The Exodus Decoded is presented as factual history, whereas The Da Vinci Code is advertised as a novel. The exhibits of The Exodus Decoded do not stand up to scrutiny in the court of objective scholarship. Archaeological data are wrenched from their chronological contexts and forced into a different time frame to fit the filmmaker’s reconstruction. What is more, the film is replete with factual errors. Although the production is offered as a serious and accurate documentary, it is not accurate and it cannot be taken seriously. There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus.

So it's like Da Vinci Code, it's fake but it's pretending to be fact. This is how people get rich from religious people who are not smart enough to check with actual scientists and see if one's work has been reviewed by peers.

"There is little of substance in The Exodus Decoded for those seeking valid historical and archaeological information on the Exodus."

How many times did you whine about good sources? Well why can't you use William Denver as a source since you seem to want to use archeology???
You are so inconsistent and desperate to prove just one single point.

I'm sorry that the religious world just had no evidence for you to show.

I would love to use Simcha Jacobovici as a source. He also has evidence of the tomb of Jesus along with Jesus's family - a wife and several children.
If true this disproves all the gospel narratives right there. The end!

The Jesus Family Tomb - Wikipedia

But he's obviously a fraud and makes crap up.
I'm sure if I originally pointed out that we know Jesus was married and had children and I used him as a source what do you think would happen??????
Maybe you would read about how he makes stuff up to sell books? Then say he's a fraud. Do you think maybe that would happen, hmmmmmm?

On top of all that, even if a REAL archeologist had evidence for Exodus WHO CARES? It just means some people crossed a desert a long time ago?
A writer can still write fiction around the tale of people moving to another place??? So pointless?
Abraham still made up Yahweh because it says so in the Quran!!!!

It's still anecdotal.
People in all cultures have NDE experiences where they report things being seen by their "spirt" that they shouldn't know, like descriptions of medical procedures.
In India people have NDE's and see Vishnu, Muslims sometimes see Mohammed and Christians see religious icongraphy related to their religion.

Many times people see no religious images but just visions of their body and the medical team. Then a bright light and loved ones.
In fact the majority do not see any religious imagery at all.

None of this relates to proving any particular religion as real or helps us see any scripture as anything but myth.
You're telling me to stay on point and you want to talk about out-of-body -experiences now??????
This isn't a discussion about an afterlife.

No one knows if there is a god or life after death. We do know that Zeus and his son Hercules are not real or any sky-father and his son and we do know all religion is metaphors, allegory, parables and myth.

What about the black chaired mountain top?

What about veridical NDEs?

Also the point about the ghost caring. Thats not entirely true.

Jesus even refused to give a sign to some people asking a sign. And he told thomas "you believe because you see, blessed are those who dont see, yet believe"

How do you explain those two things?

Jollybear · Nov 5, 2018

SkepticThinker said:
Don't try to tell me something is a firsthand account when it isn't. And especially when it's written down long after the supposed event was supposed to have taken place, after being passed along orally for many years.

I ask again, have you ever played the Telephone Game?

How do you know they played telaphone?

After talking to the witnesses they could have written it down then.

But, even still, is it so hard to remember your sister saw a flying monkey?

SkepticThinker · Nov 6, 2018

Jollybear said:
How do you know they played telaphone?

After talking to the witnesses they could have written it down then.

Because we don't have original copies of the New Testament. Because we know the stories were passed down orally before being written down. Because the stories have been translated into multiple different languages multiple different times. Because we don't know who actually wrote the Gospels, nor do the writers claim to be eyewitnesses.

Jollybear said:
But, even still, is it so hard to remember your sister saw a flying monkey?

It's definitely hard to believe and would be something I would consider an extraordinary claim.

Muffled · Nov 6, 2018

joelr said:
A consistent god as a reason for 12 appearing all over mythology even though it's traced back to the 12 zodiac? So the bible warns of worshiping other gods but then god puts "12" all over other mythology.

That is very sketchy and dubious reasoning.

I believe God is in control of all things. The whole universe appears to have numbers in it. Numbers suggest order and it appears to be a very orderly universe that was created.

Jollybear · Nov 6, 2018

SkepticThinker said:
Because we don't have original copies of the New Testament.

Well thats true, we dont have original copies, but, we dont have originals for any ancient document either. Atleast ones written on parchment. Stone perhaps, but not parchment.

Not having originals isnt proof that it wasnt written down during the interviews. Its only proof that parchment deteriates and thus another copy needs to be written to preserve the message.

Because we know the stories were passed down orally before being written down.

How do we know that?

Let me make a side point too here. If you tell me your life experiences, its gonna be hard for me to remember it all, granted. But, it dont mean i cant remember any of it either.

Also, you remembering your life experiences is going to be more accurate because the person who experiences the things remembers them better. Its just how memory works. We remember experiences better then we remember information told to us.

So, the witnesses knew the writers, the writers had access to those who would have had the best form of memory on these things.

Because the stories have been translated into multiple different languages multiple different times.

Yes, thats true, but thats not dealing with the issue of the originals or even the original language.

Because we don't know who actually wrote the Gospels

True, but we know someone wrote them and that someone claimed to have investigated this from its beginings.

Luke 1:1-4

"1Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. 2They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.a 3Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honorable Theophilus, 4so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught."

nor do the writers claim to be eyewitnesses.

True, but the writers claimed that there WER witnesses.

It's definitely hard to believe and would be something I would consider an extraordinary claim.

But, your sister is being made fun of, she's being ridiculed, persecuted. Shes even being beaten up. Even imprisoned, flogged and her life threatened if she dont recant the flying monkey story. She wont recant.

So, i have to ask myself, is your sister crazy/delusional or is she telling the truth?

I dont think anyone would be crazy enough to suffer for something they knew was not true.

Your sister would know if the flying monkey was true or not. Shes the eyewitness.

joelr · Nov 6, 2018

Muffled said:
I believe God is in control of all things. The whole universe appears to have numbers in it. Numbers suggest order and it appears to be a very orderly universe that was created.

So you think god decided to sprinkle the use of "12" all over all mythology.
Just like he created a 22 point scale of features that all mythological charcters seem to have??

All fiction contains very similar elements because god made it that way?
Do all blues musicians copy each other because god made it that way?
Do all baroque composers use similar cliche chords and passages because god made it that way.

Or is the answer people just like to borrow from each other.

Also we KNOW people borrow from each other in all arts, including literature, because they ADMIT IT.

But still, regardless of all that, your answer is god??
Ridiculous.

Now the early church fathers actually don't even agree with what you are saying. The early bishops in response to people complaining that Jesus was just like other pagan gods they were told that "the devil went back in history to make it look like that", there is a Latin term for it - Diablo En Historia or something like that.

joelr · Nov 6, 2018

Jollybear said:
What about the black chaired mountain top?

Even a google search doesn't tell me what the heck that is?

Jollybear said:
What about veridical NDEs?

I covered this. Maybe there is consciousness after death?
The majority of NDE do not see religious images but those who do always see things revelant to their own beliefs. In India people who have NDEs see similar things to everyone else but on occasion if they see religious images then they see Hindu images.
Same with all cultures, the majority see non-secular images, landscapes, relatives, the medical team working on them.
And on occasion when people see religious images it's always related to their own beliefs.
So while NDEs might suggest some type of survival after death this has nothing to do with Hercules being real. Or Thor or Romulus or Jesus.

That is still all mythology. Bad mythology because in NDE people are not getting punished for sins weather they are religious, atheist, murders or whatever.
Even criminals who have had NDE report the same experience which actually shows that whole "judgment and sin" thing is a load of crap.

Yes we all want bad murders to be punished but that doesn't seem to be the case according to the majority of NDEs.

Jollybear said:
Also the point about the ghost caring. Thats not entirely true.

Still in the gospels Jesus is very concerned with proof, he does miracles of all types to convince people. And says he will be back "in this generation", "soon", and all other types of similar statements.
We are also supposed to believe a bunch of fishermen dropped their work and followed him around leaving their families to starve.
We all know no god-man is going to show up and start doing miracles. Just man-men doing tricks.

Jollybear said:
Jesus even refused to give a sign to some people asking a sign. And he told thomas "you believe because you see, blessed are those who dont see, yet believe"

The entire faith is about a guy who raises from the dead and people see that he rose. That's the story. Of course he's concerned with proving his divinity.
Otherwise he could have appeared to no one and just gave Paul revelations.
That's all Abraham had, revelations.

It's really neither here nor there, does a demigod want to prove his divinity to modern people or not...it really makes no difference. A Romulus supporter can say the same thing about his godman.
"He doesn't want to prove anything to you"....ok fine.

Jollybear said:
How do you explain those two things?

Well one is just hypothetical and ultimately means nothing either way.
the other is a quote from a gospel which we know are not historical and probably myth.

I'm sure I could comb over all sorts of Greek, Egyptain and Roman myths/scripture and find passages about how it's good to have blind faith.
The gospels are mythological fan-fiction. It doesn't matter what they say.

The only thing that would matter is if they had some sort of specific prediction.
Like "in 2000 years man will learn mass is equal to energy" or the sun is a star that 9 planets orbit around inside a galaxy full of billions of other stars with planets and there are billions of these galaxies in clusters and super-clusters and the universe is expanding and is 13 billion years old.
Or matter exists as small pieces and waves at the same time.
And pi is 3.14159562

Pi IS in the bible but it's a disaster:

1 Kings 7:23 King James
And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

This is very very awful. Ask any high school student the value of pi and they'll say, "Three point one four, and then some." Then what on earth is a value of 3 doing in the infallible Word of God? Anything else we can translate and interpret into neat fashion but numbers stand like diamonds: they're either right or they are wrong. And the value of 3 for pi in the Bible is wrong. Now what?
When the value of pi appeared to be surely a bit more than 3, panic ripped through the realm. A wide variety of excuses have been devised to rescue the infallibility of the Book of First Kings, and explain this erroneous value of pi in the Bible.

We've hand-picked some of the lamest, and made up a few more...:

Pi in the Bible: Proposed solutions and their rebuttal
• The Bible isn't a science book. It's more like a story. Like an analogy.

Fine. Science the way we do it didn't exist until the seventeenth century. But if the Bible isn't a science book, there should be no pi in the Bible. The Bible shouldn't make any scientific statement. Now that it did, we see that it states a fallacy.

• The vessel was super-holy! It was described as something that can't exist in normal space-time. Like an Esher drawing. The artist that made the vessel also drew cherubim. How does a cherub look, huh?

First Kings painstakingly states every detail imaginable, like a true record. The vessel was no less holy than all the other articles in the temple, and certainly not more holy than the Ark, which is carefully specified in Exodus. First Kings does not speak of vague and esoteric concepts, but reports who was making what and how it looked. Like a newspaper article. And a cherub has a human form (Ezekiel 1:5).

etc....

1 Kings 7:23 | Yikes! The number Pi in the Bible | A groovy commentary

joelr · Nov 6, 2018

Jollybear said:
But, your sister is being made fun of, she's being ridiculed, persecuted. Shes even being beaten up. Even imprisoned, flogged and her life threatened if she dont recant the flying monkey story. She wont recant.

So, i have to ask myself, is your sister crazy/delusional or is she telling the truth?

I dont think anyone would be crazy enough to suffer for something they knew was not true.

Your sister would know if the flying monkey was true or not. Shes the eyewitness.

You seem to think that if someone thinks something is true then it must be true?
People have died for religious, political, cultural and all sorts of beliefs that were not always "true".

The ufo cult that commited suicide to be able to ride a ufo near saturn definitely believed the story was true.

Also the people who were persecuted for any religion, we don't know if they were able to gainsay and recant.
Some of them may have recanted and were sparred and not written about in history.
Some may have gainsaid and were still executed and some died for their beliefs.

There is historical records of Buddhist going to Rome and setting themselves on fire to show how powerful their beliefs were.
Still doesn't make them true.

Plenty of Roman soldiers who were taken prisoner were probably tortured and killed while praying to their god Mithras.
The majority of the North Koreans would right now die for their supreme leader whom they basically consider a god.
watch the Nat Geo doc on North Korea it's shocking.

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