Skwim
Veteran Member
When it's been pointed out how immoral god was for cruelly killing innocent people for things they were not responsible for (consider the innocent children of Sodom who were killed when god set fire to the town) Christians typically explain it away by saying god killed these innocent people for a very good reason, A reason we will never know, but is justified because god is good, and therefore would never do an unkind or immoral thing: God had an excellent and justifiable reason for killing innocent mothers and their babies; although, we will never know his reason or the justification.
For the non-believer this is hardly a convincing argument, but so be it, what else can the Christian say? However, speaking of god's pristine morality I ask you to consider the morality of SLAVERY; owning another human being; forcing that person to do unpaid work, and being permitted to beat him or her? Today, almost all peoples of the world condemn slavery because of its immorality. As has been pointed out:
In moral philosophy there's an ethical theory called deontology that states that the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based on the consequences of the action.
Could there be better reasons for condemning slavery? I don't think so. Slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty. It takes over a person's life by others who have not obtained any authority to do this other than by the fact that they are mightier. YET! the Christian god thinks slavery is just fine: quite moral---presumably, if he thought it was immoral he wouldn't condone it.
In Exodus god even sets out rules for owning slaves. A few of them:
and in Leviticus we are told:
And the acceptance of slavery didn't end with the arrival of Jesus Christ. The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair.
So, whose side are you on:
The side of those who feel slavery is wrong because it violates a person's dignity and rights. The right to life and to choose how one will live within the rules of society? Or on god's side, who doesn't care if slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty and, in fact, condones it?
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For the non-believer this is hardly a convincing argument, but so be it, what else can the Christian say? However, speaking of god's pristine morality I ask you to consider the morality of SLAVERY; owning another human being; forcing that person to do unpaid work, and being permitted to beat him or her? Today, almost all peoples of the world condemn slavery because of its immorality. As has been pointed out:
"Although slavery does seem 'obviously wrong' it's worth listing some of the reasons why it's wrong.
1) Slavery increases total human unhappiness
2) The slave-owner treats the slaves as the means to achieve the slave-owner's ends, not as an end in themselves
3) Slavery exploits and degrades human beings
4)Slavery violates human rights: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights explicitly forbids slavery and many of the practices associated with slavery
5) Slavery uses force or the threat of force on other human beings
6) Slavery leaves a legacy of discrimination and disadvantage
7) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of racism, in that many cultures show clear racism in their choice of people to enslave
8) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of gender discrimination
9) Slavery perpetuates the abuse of children"
source
1) Slavery increases total human unhappiness
2) The slave-owner treats the slaves as the means to achieve the slave-owner's ends, not as an end in themselves
3) Slavery exploits and degrades human beings
4)Slavery violates human rights: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights explicitly forbids slavery and many of the practices associated with slavery
5) Slavery uses force or the threat of force on other human beings
6) Slavery leaves a legacy of discrimination and disadvantage
7) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of racism, in that many cultures show clear racism in their choice of people to enslave
8) Slavery is both the result and the fuel of gender discrimination
9) Slavery perpetuates the abuse of children"
source
In moral philosophy there's an ethical theory called deontology that states that the morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based on the consequences of the action.
"Most deontologists argue that slavery is wrong because it violates a person's rights. They believe everyone has a right to life and to choose how they will live within the rules of society. Deontologists believe it is wrong to treat people merely as objects and tools, to treat people merely as a means to end.
So, slavery is wrong because it violates rights, fairness, and justice. It does not matter if slavery has good or bad economic consequences, it is wrong period. It does not matter if slavery promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest number, it is wrong because it violates the rights of one human being.
source
So, slavery is wrong because it violates rights, fairness, and justice. It does not matter if slavery has good or bad economic consequences, it is wrong period. It does not matter if slavery promotes the greatest happiness for the greatest number, it is wrong because it violates the rights of one human being.
source
Could there be better reasons for condemning slavery? I don't think so. Slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty. It takes over a person's life by others who have not obtained any authority to do this other than by the fact that they are mightier. YET! the Christian god thinks slavery is just fine: quite moral---presumably, if he thought it was immoral he wouldn't condone it.
In Exodus god even sets out rules for owning slaves. A few of them:
Exodus 21:2-3
2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.
Exodus 21:20-21
20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
2 When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Exodus 21:7-8
7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed.
Exodus 21:20-21
20 If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.
and in Leviticus we are told:
Leviticus 25: 44-46
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.
And the acceptance of slavery didn't end with the arrival of Jesus Christ. The New Testament makes no condemnation of slavery and does no more than admonish slaves to be obedient and their masters not to be unfair.
Ephesians 6:5-8
5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke [note the recognition of oppression] as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2 Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke [note the recognition of oppression] as slaves are to regard their own masters as worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be spoken against. 2 Those who have believers as their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these principles.
So, whose side are you on:
The side of those who feel slavery is wrong because it violates a person's dignity and rights. The right to life and to choose how one will live within the rules of society? Or on god's side, who doesn't care if slavery obliterates an individual's self-governance or sovereignty and, in fact, condones it?
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