The Creation of Religion

AdamRaja said:

I thought an interesting subject would be the creation of religion. I know that Hinduism is said to be the oldest official religion. I am also aware of Ancient Sumerians and other records. Personally, in my beliefs Islam was the first and will also be the last. That is why we say people revert to Islam and not convert. In our mind we are all born Muslim.

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Interesting, I never knew that Muslims believed that.

I'd like to think that in the garden of Eden there was no need for religion. It seems to me, reading through the account in Genesis, that God did not give humans a long list of laws....all they had was one positive command, and one negative one. It was a very simple start but complicated by the appearance of a third party. An "adversary" used deception to entice the woman to break that negative command, and she in turn influenced her husband to also break this command, thereby bringing upon themselves the stated penalty....death. It is noteworthy that there was no 'natural' cause of death in Eden. The only way to die was to disobey.

All that being said I am more interested to hear how others think religion was created. I think that people started off maybe by worshiping nature and then it grew from there?

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What makes you think that God did not direct man's worship from the start? If we are God's creation, then because he desired a relationship with us, he programmed us for worship. Every culture on earth has a form of worship and all religions seem to share a core of beliefs, showing that they have a common origin....but what is that origin? This core of beliefs seems to point to ancient Babylon, which fits with what happened after the flood of Noah's day. (Genesis 11:1-9) This second wave of rebellion took false religious ideas all over the world.

What was the need to do so?

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The need is programmed into us, but we lost something somewhere along the way, so that our worship became corrupted. There is no way that the multitude of the world's religions all please the one true God.

I believe that all these forms of worship have to do with the adversary. He gave himself away when he asked Jesus to do an act of worship to him.....offering him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange. (Luke 4:5-8) It is reasonable to conclude that all worship that is not sanctioned by the true God is directed to the adversary by default. False religion benefits God's enemy. Not only that, but because he has the whole world under his control, he has humanity in the palm of his hand. (1 John 5:19)

How do you think religion became such a social structured thing? Was it simply the wandering of why we are here leading to false answers?

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The Scriptures tell us that God is a God of order and he has endowed humans with a need for order too. In the early times, it appears that God's people structured their worship around the patriarchal system, and later, when the Jews became a nation, then God structured their worship. After the incident with the golden calf, God did not allow humans to decide about spiritual matters for themselves.....he prescribed everything they did, and his people were obligated to obey his laws.

But if what happened in Eden at the beginning had not occurred, (the adversary had not tempted the woman....or the woman had not tempted the man) then I believe religion would never have even crossed the minds of humankind. They would all have filled the earth as God commanded and worshipped God as one human race forever....undivided.

I believe that we will go back to God's original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

blü 2 said:

There may be a few factors.

One is grieving (also found in other animals) and burial or body-disposal rituals. Going way back, chiefs were buried (&c) with special honors and material possessions, suggesting that the dead are not thought of as merely memories.

Another is good luck, such as a hunter, a fisherman, a woman in childbirth, a sailor, a warrior facing battle, might need, and wish to call on. When I drove a cab in my student days, I found myself saying 'Thanks' to the air when the cards fell for me; which brings to mind DG Rosetti's dictum that the worst moment for the atheist is when he's feeling thankful and has no one to thank.

A third is the explanation of natural phenomena, like thunder and lightning as mentioned by others. The attribution of natural disasters (and military defeats) to the displeasure of the gods goes back a long way too. It may be a convenient way to make emotional sense of the unknown and the incomprehensible.

And a fourth is enhancing the coherence of the tribe by sharing a common fund of stories (and related rituals, dances, songs, recitals &c) about divine favors, divine or heroic ancestors, funny stories, just-so stories, and so on. In the Tanakh the 'shibboleth' story (Judges 12) is a reflection of this, knowing your friends by language and accent.

And I almost forgot the need of a professional priest class to keep busy and protect their position.

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Neat. Thanks Blu2

adrian009 said:

I believe God has always existed and Manifested or made Himself known though Great Spiritual Educators such as Krishna, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Christ and Muhammad. I don’t believe Muhammed was the last prophet as the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh are much more recent. There will have been Manifestations in early human history but their names have been lost. Beyond that, a constellation of wise men and sages that God has inspired.

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Very cool read .Thanks for the response!

Deeje said:

Interesting, I never knew that Muslims believed that.

I'd like to think that in the garden of Eden there was no need for religion. It seems to me, reading through the account in Genesis, that God did not give humans a long list of laws....all they had was one positive command, and one negative one. It was a very simple start but complicated by the appearance of a third party. An "adversary" used deception to entice the woman to break that negative command, and she in turn influenced her husband to also break this command, thereby bringing upon themselves the stated penalty....death. It is noteworthy that there was no 'natural' cause of death in Eden. The only way to die was to disobey.



What makes you think that God did not direct man's worship from the start? If we are God's creation, then because he desired a relationship with us, he programmed us for worship. Every culture on earth has a form of worship and all religions seem to share a core of beliefs, showing that they have a common origin....but what is that origin? This core of beliefs seems to point to ancient Babylon, which fits with what happened after the flood of Noah's day. (Genesis 11:1-9) This second wave of rebellion took false religious ideas all over the world.



The need is programmed into us, but we lost something somewhere along the way, so that our worship became corrupted. There is no way that the multitude of the world's religions all please the one true God.

I believe that all these forms of worship have to do with the adversary. He gave himself away when he asked Jesus to do an act of worship to him.....offering him "all the kingdoms of the world" in exchange. (Luke 4:5-8) It is reasonable to conclude that all worship that is not sanctioned by the true God is directed to the adversary by default. False religion benefits God's enemy. Not only that, but because he has the whole world under his control, he has humanity in the palm of his hand. (1 John 5:19)



The Scriptures tell us that God is a God of order and he has endowed humans with a need for order too. In the early times, it appears that God's people structured their worship around the patriarchal system, and later, when the Jews became a nation, then God structured their worship. After the incident with the golden calf, God did not allow humans to decide about spiritual matters for themselves.....he prescribed everything they did, and his people were obligated to obey his laws.

But if what happened in Eden at the beginning had not occurred, (the adversary had not tempted the woman....or the woman had not tempted the man) then I believe religion would never have even crossed the minds of humankind. They would all have filled the earth as God commanded and worshipped God as one human race forever....undivided.

I believe that we will go back to God's original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

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Thanks so much for that. Enjoyed the read!

Audie said:

Now here is what I will do. I will ignore you, and you are invited to go forth and do likewise. Deal?

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What a good idea! I've just added you to the ignore list. As I said the other day, you make more daily posts on the web than Trump, and with about as much sense. Remember the advice of Mark Twain: "Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

AdamRaja said:

I thought an interesting subject would be the creation of religion. I know that Hinduism is said to be the oldest official religion. I am also aware of Ancient Sumerians and other records. Personally, in my beliefs Islam was the first and will also be the last. That is why we say people revert to Islam and not convert. In our mind we are all born Muslim.

All that being said I am more interested to hear how others think religion was created. I think that people started off maybe by worshiping nature and then it grew from there? If you don't believe in God or any gods then what is your opinion on how man created it all? What was the need to do so? How do you think religion became such a social structured thing? Was it simply the wandering of why we are here leading to false answers?

Would love to hear your take on how religion began!

View attachment 25115

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As a Bahai I share similar beliefs, though different interpretations.

We also believe in Quran, and when it says, the only religion has always been Islam.
When you look at other relevant verses of Quran, you would see that, everytime a Messenger of God appeared He revealed Islam, but with a different set of Rites and Religious Laws. For example, you would see that, Quran says, Jesus with permission of God, had abrogated some of the Laws that God had revealed to Moses. Likewise, Muhammad also in the Quran removed some of the Laws of Past. As an example, you would see, God had asked Jews to keep the Law of Sabath. But Muhammad did not include this Law in Quran, for Muslims.

What we can conclude from Quran, is, everytime God has revealed Religion through a Prophet, He has revised Islam to provide the Laws and Rites for the Period that the Book was revealed.
In this sense, the Islam that Muhammad brought, was a newer Islam than the Islam that Jesus brought. And likewise, the Islam that Jesus brought was newer than the Islam that the Islam that Moses brought. In the Quran, the Word Islam must be understood as 'Submission to God', which is accomplished when God sends His commands through His Prophets.
Now, indeed when you look into traditions from Shia Imams, Imam Bagher and Sadegh, you would see that according to them, when the Mahdi comes, He will bring a new Islam, with new Laws, and a New Book. The Bahais believe this prophecy is fulfilled, and see their own Faith, as the newest Islam, but not the Last one. The Bahais believe God will renew His Religions again and again.

InvestigateTruth said:

As a Bahai I share similar beliefs, though different interpretations.

We also believe in Quran, and when it says, the only religion has always been Islam.
When you look at other relevant verses of Quran, you would see that, everytime a Messenger of God appeared He revealed Islam, but with a different set of Rites and Religious Laws. For example, you would see that, Quran says, Jesus with permission of God, had abrogated some of the Laws that God had revealed to Moses. Likewise, Muhammad also in the Quran removed some of the Laws of Past. As an example, you would see, God had asked Jews to keep the Law of Sabath. But Muhammad did not include this Law in Quran, for Muslims.

What we can conclude from Quran, is, everytime God has revealed Religion through a Prophet, He has revised Islam to provide the Laws and Rites for the Period that the Book was revealed.
In this sense, the Islam that Muhammad brought, was a newer Islam than the Islam that Jesus brought. And likewise, the Islam that Jesus brought was newer than the Islam that the Islam that Moses brought. In the Quran, the Word Islam must be understood as 'Submission to God', which is accomplished when God sends His commands through His Prophets.
Now, indeed when you look into traditions from Shia Imams, Imam Bagher and Sadegh, you would see that according to them, when the Mahdi comes, He will bring a new Islam, with new Laws, and a New Book. The Bahais believe this prophecy is fulfilled, and see their own Faith, as the newest Islam, but not the Last one. The Bahais believe God will renew His Religions again and again.

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Thank you so much for that response. I didn't even know of this religion until I joined RF and I'm excited to learn more. Super intriguing. Thought it was just Muslims who gave the Quran credit.

Its a tough topic to consider and study, since we're drifting back into the undocumented past.
So, this is very much supposition.

I think religion grew from far less formed and dogmatic beliefs that became increasingly conformist. There was a right way and a wrong way to worship, perhaps due to larger societies, and the need to have some consistency across it, perhaps by the ability to document and describe as opposed to earlier oral histories.
It's worth recognizing here that even amongst modern religions, there is a wide variance in how important 'correct' aderance to the religion and all it's tenets are, and to how proscriptive religions are.

AdamRaja said:

You don't know that. Please don't say things as fact you cant prove.. or disprove.

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Of course we know that. There is a tool called science that can help to see why there cannot have possibly been a flood as described in the Bible, when?, 4000 years ago?

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Of course we know that. There is a tool called science that can help to see why there cannot have possibly been a flood as described in the Bible, when?, 4000 years ago?

Ciao

- viole

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Ok. I respect your opinion.

AdamRaja said:

Ok. I respect your opinion.

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Except that it is not an opinion. In the same way it is not an opinion that the earth is not flat.

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Except that it is not an opinion. In the same way it is not an opinion that the earth is not flat.

Ciao

- viole

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Its an opinion but call it what you want. FYI In the Quran it does not say your biblical timeframe and it doesnt say the whole world was flooded. Just a region.

AdamRaja said:

Its an opinion but call it what you want. FYI In the Quran it does not say your biblical timeframe and it doesnt say the whole world was flooded. Just a region.

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Oh yea. Sorry, then. I thought you were one of those Christians who believe in kangaroos hopping from Australia to the middle east and back.

Local floods are vastly more plausible.

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Oh yea. Sorry, then. I thought you were one of those Christians who believe in kangaroos hopping from Australia to the middle east and back.

Local floods are vastly more plausible.

Ciao

- viole

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I looked at your profile. You're from one of top ranked atheist countries. Very neat. I bet its so different living in a country like that. I'm a Muslim in a Christian nation so its kinda weird lol.

AdamRaja said:

I looked at your profile. You're from one of top ranked atheist countries. Very neat. I bet its so different living in a country like that. I'm a Muslim in a Christian nation so its kinda weird lol.

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Actually I now live in Switzerland. Which is not very atheistic. For instance, today we have a day off because of the celebration of all (catholic) saints, whatever that means.

But I am originally from Sweden, and that is much more secular.

Ciao

- viole

viole said:

Actually I now live in Switzerland. Which is not very atheistic. For instance, today we have a day off because of the celebration of all (catholic) saints, whatever that means.

But I am originally from Sweden, and that is much more secular.

Ciao

- viole

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Hey, that's an extra day off! Id happily take it. lol.

AdamRaja said:

Would love to hear your take on how religion began!

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Religion began by people making up so-called truth to explain the scary stuff they experienced and to enhance the power of the powerful. It's all fiction and should be treated as such.