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Jesus Resurrection

joelr

Well-Known Member
Ok so no amount of historical evidence will convince you that the resurrection happened?

This makes no sense.

Sai Baba of Shirdi - Wikipedia

India has 1.3 billion people and 80% are Hindu. There are literally MILLIONS of people who claim to be eyewitnesses to his miracles. There are endless writings of eyewitnesses of his real magic. From the 1900's not 2000 years ago.

Yet I don't believe Sai Baba to be supernatural and you probably don't either.

So your point is meaningless. If eyewitnesses are so important to you then you should move to India and visit his temple daily. Along with 25,000 other daily visitors.

There is no historical evidence to any religion. But the point is that even when there clearly is, it doesn't matter, we still assume it's a cultural phenomenon and a myth.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That looks like a pile of mess. Ezekiel 8:16, verse right after tammuz says thus

"

I want DIRECT proof from your sources for what you are saying here.

Of course the OT isn't going to admit where their god comes from??? Why do you think myths would ever reveal their earthly sources?????

Astrotheological gods pre-date all gods.


Astrotheology of the Ancients

The subject of what or who were the ancient gods has been the focus of much serious debate and wild speculation over the centuries. The reality is that the ancient gods were mainly astrotheological and/or based on natural, earthly forces. This fact is attested by numerous authorities over the millennia, including ancient writers reflecting upon their own religions and those of other known cultures. ...[T]he ancient authorities who knew that the gods were astronomical, i.e., the sun, moon, stars and planets, and elemental, i.e., water, fire, wind, etc., or natural, i.e., rivers and springs, included Epicharmos (c. 540-450 BCE), Prodikos (5th cent. BCE); Caesar (100-40 BCE) and Herodotus (484?-425 BCE).... (35-36)

We have seen how various ancient, pre-Christian writers explained that their gods were astrotheological and that astrology was a predominant ideology or "science" in the Pagan world. Like the Pagans, the early Church fathers discussed the pervasive astrotheology, as they could hardly avoid it, since it was their competition. Naturally, when they did address it their comments were often condescending or disparaging. For example, in Against the Heathen, theologian St. Athanasius (c. 293-373) attempted to raise the Christian god above all the rest, establishing the ancient worship as astrotheological and relating that mankind "gave the honour due to God first to the heaven and the sun and moon and the stars, thinking them to be not only gods, but also the causes of the other gods lower than themselves…"

It's just common sense. Sky-father gods are myths. There is nowhere in the OT where they are going to say "our god is really the sun"??

Please stay on point. I'm not as familiar with D.M. Murdocks work on astrotheology and I don't see a need to research it when there is already a debate with many unanswered threads about the historicity of Jesus.
"3 days" obviously taken from the sun myth but it's really neither here nor there. It's such a small point and we can see that it WAS COPIED from the OT anyways. Like I pointed out previously with those time markers from RC lecture.


And using the OT as a source to prove the OT is correct is the worst logic I have ever seen?
Did you really just say that?


"This is completely proven from the OT and NT that God is creator of the sun and is NOT his own creation."

Holy cr#$ you did???
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I wanna thank you for debating with me. Because through you im learning more bits of information. Your helping my view become stronger and more informed. Thank you.

I found out something interesting about the reason of the 3 days. Its not arbitrary.

"For three days after death the soul hovers over the body intending to reenter it." (Lev. Rabbah 18:1)" got it from here Glimpses into the Afterlife

So, there was a tradition that believed the person was not truly dead unless dead for 3 days. So, God kept Jesus dead for 3 days in order to banish any doubt he was truly dead.

Same to you.

Right, and we can trace the 3 days thing back to sun worship.

By golly im glad you asked that question, i was hoping you would and you did. You are just on top of things arent you? Ok, heres why i dont believe the OT got the 3 days from innana.

First reason because jonah does not reference innana but speaks as its own story.

Second reason is that jonah and the OT are critical of pagan gods. In fact, the OT directly criticized inanna. It dont say "inanna", it says queen of heaven, which that is another name for inanna. and mentions tammuz her husband

Jonah was a hebrew servent of God (Yahweh), not inanna. Source here jonah 1:1-2 and verse 9. Jonah's shipmates called on other gods, verse 5.

Jonah was told to preach against ninivah's wickedness. Ninivah was a important centre for the worship of ishtar or inanna. Source here Nineveh < click on ishtar and it reveals its another name for inanna.

Here is the passage in the OT that DIRECTLY is critical of inanna or as shes also called, queen of heaven.

Jeremiah 7:18 " the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:17 "We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah"

Ezekiel 8:14 "Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning the god Tammuz. He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.”

Tammuz was another name for dumuzi and he was inannas husband. Source here: Tammuz | Mesopotamian god and in the same innana tablet along with her being called queen of heaven and her husband dumuzi, thats all mentioned there too: Inana's descent to the nether world: translation



It dont just LOOK like a fullfilled prophesy, IT IS.


I don't know if they took inspiration from Inanna on the 3 days but it's obvious that that myth goes right back to the original sun god worship. It isn't a coincidence.
The sun goes to it's darkest point and stays for 3 days then begins it's resurrection.
Jesus birthday was even put on the same day?
Please don't ask for evidence in the OT, no religion actually says they borrowed concepts from other myths.

Of course it isn't fulfilled prophecy? It's an ancient Middle Eastern myth that is proven mythology.

The fact that they mention Inanna is actually proof that they borrowed the mythology. It's proof they knew the other myths.
They just decided to say "no, our god-man is the REAL one and HE resurrected in 3 days, not your god!"

At any rate, this 3 day thing, while obviously pagan, has zero impact on the historicity of Jesus. Since it's mythical in nature it does help support the mythicist theory a bit. But the fact that it's in the OT is complete proof the NT took it from there. But to say it's a prophecy means you have to prove the supernatural aspects. And we are right back at the beginning with no verification of the gospels at all.
But as to proof of mythology we have plenty of that. Even though you are pretending it's not true the mythic structure of the gospels is proven beyond a doubt.


But sourcing the OT doesn't really work either.
scholarship has accepted Thomas Thompson's work on Abraham and other biblical patriarchs
as mythology.
It ruined his career in the 1970s but has since been accepted as credible work and proof of teh mythical nature of the OT.

The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives - Wikipedia


https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/372571
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
It dont just LOOK like a fullfilled prophesy, IT IS.

Debating prophecy I admit is silly but if one is going to say a prophecy from the OT was fulfilled then the failed prophecies need be mentioned.
there are over 200 here, while some are nitpicky some are right on
Genesis
  1. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."
    God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17
  2. As a punishment for killing Abel, God says Cain will be "a fugitive and a vagabond." Yet in just a few verses (4:16-17) Cain will settle down, marry, have a son, and build a city. This is not the activity one would expect from a fugitive and a vagabond. 4:12
  3. God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
  4. How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Exodus 12:40 and Galatians 3:17 say 430 years. 15:13
  5. "In the fourth generation they [Abraham's descendants] shall come hither again." But, if we count Abraham, then their return occurred after seven generations: Abraham, Isaac (Gen 21:1-3), Jacob (Gen.25:19-26), Levi (Gen 35:22-23), Kohath (Ex 6:16), Amramn (Ex 6:18), and Moses (Ex 6:20). 15:16
  6. God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 22:17-18, 26:4
  7. God renames Jacob twice (32:28, 35:10 ). God says that Jacob will henceforth be called Israel, but the Bible continues to call him Jacob anyway (47:28-29). And even God himself calls him Jacob in 46:2. 32:28, 35:10
  8. God calls Jacob Jacob, though he said in Gen.32:28 and 35:10 that he would no longer be called Jacob but Israel. 46:2
  9. God promises to bring Jacob safely back from Egypt, but Jacob dies in Egypt (Gen.47:28-29) 46:3
  10. The tribe of Judah will reign "until Shiloh," but Israel's first king (Saul) was from the tribe of Benjamin (Acts 13:21), and most of the time after this prophecy there was no king at all. 49:10
  11. "He washed his garments in wine ... His eyes shall be red with wine."
    Did Judah really wash his clothes in wine? Were his eyes bloodshot from drinking too much? Or is this a prophecy of Jesus? (I didn't know Jesus had a drinking problem.) 49:11-12
  12. Contrary to the prophecy in 48:21, Joseph died in Egypt, not Israel. Gen.50:24

    Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes
 
Same to you.

Right, and we can trace the 3 days thing back to sun worship.




I don't know if they took inspiration from Inanna on the 3 days but it's obvious that that myth goes right back to the original sun god worship. It isn't a coincidence.
The sun goes to it's darkest point and stays for 3 days then begins it's resurrection.
Jesus birthday was even put on the same day?
Please don't ask for evidence in the OT, no religion actually says they borrowed concepts from other myths.

Of course it isn't fulfilled prophecy? It's an ancient Middle Eastern myth that is proven mythology.

The fact that they mention Inanna is actually proof that they borrowed the mythology. It's proof they knew the other myths.
They just decided to say "no, our god-man is the REAL one and HE resurrected in 3 days, not your god!"

At any rate, this 3 day thing, while obviously pagan, has zero impact on the historicity of Jesus. Since it's mythical in nature it does help support the mythicist theory a bit. But the fact that it's in the OT is complete proof the NT took it from there. But to say it's a prophecy means you have to prove the supernatural aspects. And we are right back at the beginning with no verification of the gospels at all.
But as to proof of mythology we have plenty of that. Even though you are pretending it's not true the mythic structure of the gospels is proven beyond a doubt.


But sourcing the OT doesn't really work either.
scholarship has accepted Thomas Thompson's work on Abraham and other biblical patriarchs
as mythology.
It ruined his career in the 1970s but has since been accepted as credible work and proof of teh mythical nature of the OT.

The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives - Wikipedia


https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/372571

Wait a minute, wait just a minute. Before i move on with responding to more specifics, i got to ask you this and get it OUT of the way first.

You just said im PRETENDING the bible is not myth.

So, your saying that in reality i actually agree with your position. That i dont really believe what im defending here.

That is not only false, but is borderline disrespecting me.

No, i do not agree with you. And i DO believe what i am defending here. And my reasons of belief are not due to psychological either.

Debating the content of the subject takes enough time and work, i dont need to also deal with being called a pretender.

Subduction wanted to play that game and i stopped talking to him. I dont want to do that with you too.

Again, how would you like it if i said your pretending to not believe the bible is true? You'd probably think im insane.
 
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Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Paul talks about A guy who has brothers on Earth, was born from a mother, who descended from David, who was buried etc.

These sound like someone who lived on earth
Zeus had brothers, had a mother, no longer seems to be a thing, fathered many kings in the real world, etc.

Theological texts don't seem very interested in scientific or historical accuracy. The bible is an ancient version of Fox News. It says what it says, facts be damned.

Ok so no amount of historical evidence will convince you that the resurrection happened?
You have no historical evidence he was alive or dead. I'm a nurse, so I know there are possibilities that were confused with magic resurrections. And even if he did resurrect magically, so what? I just saw Jon Snow do that catching up on Game of Thrones. The X-Men's Phoenix does it regularly. Everyone who returns to life from CPR has resurrected. It proves NOTHING.

I don't understand the question
You act like the authors are eyewitnesses, even to things the stories themselves show they weren't around to witness (making them liars). Eyewitness testimony contributed to Jesus' execution, did it not, per these witnesses who weren't there? Why believe your eyewitnesses but not the eyewitnesses who said Jesus was just some religious terrorist? You can't have it both ways. The people who testified against Jesus at the trial claimed to be eyewitnesses. They claimed he said things the texts also claim he said. Per your logic, we should just accept that he was a religious terrorist because the eyewitnesses said so.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Depends on what you mean by accounts from witnesses. If you mean them actually writing accounts, thats one thing, but what about writtings they approve?
An eyewitness account is an account of a person who witnessed something firsthand. As in, they personally saw something with their own eyes.

Which means that Luke's account is not that of an eyewitness. If he heard the story from someone else who claims to have witnessed the thing, then we'd need to read that person's account, in order to be reading an eyewitness account.

Like i said, paul, luke, peter, james, john knew eachother and talked. They got the account from the witnesses and wrote it down.
They're not eyewitness accounts. They are people saying that they heard something from someone else.

There accounts from those who knew how to write and who investigated these events from its beginings and who knew the witnesses.
If my sister saw a flying monkey, and I tell you that my sister told me that she saw a flying monkey, I am not providing you with an eyewitness account. I'd have to go get my sister and have her relay the story for you.

Why dont you accept that as good enough? Just curious.
They are not the eyewitness accounts they are claimed to be. I'm tired of people trying to claim that they are.

We all know how stories end up altered over time and multiple re-tellings. Ever played the game Telephone?
 

AdamRaja

Islamic Philosopher
The death and resurrection of Jesus in roughly 28 or 29 CE assertedby the Bible (many times) and by almost every living Christian. Yet there is not only no evidence that said resurrection ever occurred, but there is essentially no way to prove that somebody that died and came back to life over 2000 hrs ago.

In Islam, Jesus never died!
He was brought up with God at the last second
.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Wait a minute, wait just a minute. Before i move on with responding to more specifics, i got to ask you this and get it OUT of the way first.

You just said im PRETENDING the bible is not myth.

So, your saying that in reality i actually agree with your position. That i dont really believe what im defending here.

That is not only false, but is borderline disrespecting me.

No, i do not agree with you. And i DO believe what i am defending here. And my reasons of belief are not due to psychological either.

Debating the content of the subject takes enough time and work, i dont need to also deal with being called a pretender.

Subduction wanted to play that game and i stopped talking to him. I dont want to do that with you too.

Again, how would you like it if i said your pretending to not believe the bible is true? You'd probably think im insane.


No, I said you are pretending the bible does not follow mythic structure. One can believe a myth is actually true but we know it's been written following all known mythic styles.
At 15:30 some of the mythic structure is outlined.


My comment also relates to how closely Christianity follows pagan mythology.
It's a waste of time to say it isn't when we have early Christians explaining that the devil did this on purpose. Their explanation of why Christ mirrors paganism is the devil. If it didn't actually mirror paganism why would they say the devil did that.

Why would Justin Mryter say that Christians should not mock pagans because they both are very similar?

Myths all have a score on the
The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type mythic structure and Jesus fits this structure exactly.

The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type (and Jesus)



The point you have been making about "everyones life is similar" and I keep saying that mythic happenings don't ever happen in real life. The author actually says "ever" just like I did. I did not see this article until just now:
This is that:


Real life is not like that
I would like to make one more point. One scholarly study I have read attempted to explain the coincidence between the gospel narratives of Jesus and the structures and themes found in dramatic literature by saying that Jesus’ life just happened to work out that way. But that is not how real life works, ever. Lord Raglan’s thesis may add strength to other scholarly research that suggests that some of the gospels were written for performance.

There are three rules that apply to all dramatic performances. They are:

  1. Everything said or done upon the stage must be clearly audible or visible to the audience.
  2. Everything said or done upon the stage must be related to the plot or main theme of the drama.
  3. The interest of the audience must never be allowed to flag.
When we say that a situation is dramatic we imply that these rules have been observed, but in real life they never are. Nothing has ever happened in real life that, if presented on the stage exactly as it happened, would hold the attention of an audience for half an hour. The difference between a play which is regarded as realistic and one which is not is that while in the latter there is nothing which bears any resemblance to real life, in the former the actors say and do what real people might conceivably say and do, but they say and do in a couple of hours interesting and exciting things which in real life would take weeks or months. All the dull things that happen in between are left out; we spend most of our time in working, eating, sleeping, washing, and dressing and in talking about them when we are not doing them, but the actors in drama seldom do any of these things, or even mention them. The reason for this is that even in the most realistic drama the actors are not really attempting to imitate real life; they are acting a drama, and must conform to the conventions of the drama. . . . .

And not only is the manner of the drama totally different from that of real life, but the plots are like nothing that really happens. In a drama the leading characters must be the same throughout, and the incidents must follow one another in a connected sequence; everything must work up to a climax. How different are our own lives as we look back upon them from the life of a hero of drama! In our case everything, or at least everything that might be considered interesting, is completely disconnected.

The same applies to dramatic narrative in the form of text on a page. Authors must fabricate order. Historians need to find it, too, from the data they have before them. If the data itself just happens to come fully framed with a single inevitable order one would have to be quite naive not to at least raise questions.

The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type (and Jesus)

I don't care if you believe a myth but saying it doesn't read as a myth is not true. I believe you are smarter than that so it isn't ignorance.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
[
Wait a minute, wait just a minute. Before i move on with responding to more specifics, i got to ask you this and get it OUT of the way first.


Rank–Raglan mythotype (sometimes called the hero archetypes)
  1. Mother is a royal virgin
  2. Father is a king
  3. Father often a near relative to mother
  4. Unusual conception
  5. Hero reputed to be son of god
  6. Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
  7. Hero spirited away as a child
  8. Reared by foster parents in a far country
  9. No details of childhood
  10. Returns or goes to future kingdom
  11. Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast
  12. Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
  13. Becomes king
  14. For a time he reigns uneventfully
  15. He prescribes laws
  16. Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
  17. Driven from throne and city
  18. Meets with mysterious death
  19. Often at the top of a hill
  20. His children, if any, do not succeed him
  21. His body is not buried
  22. Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

Ha, so not to upset religious people the Wiki article list : 22) Muhammad (17), Jesus (18), and Buddha (15). (Fictional characters such as Harry Potter (8) scored lower.)

under "real people".
What they are suggesting is that Jesus was a man and the stories later created around him were myth. But like I've been saying the historical evidence isn't even supporting that idea.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Again, how would you like it if i said your pretending to not believe the bible is true? You'd probably think im insane.
If you had reason to say that I would listen, like if Jesus was in the Middle East right now doing miracles. If you said it every post it might get weird.
But I would probably say ' no, I really don't believe in any mythical stories as true".

I can't control what people say, I can only control my reactions to words. I'm powerless trying to control outside things, where I have power is internally. So I go to where the power is.
 
No, I said you are pretending the bible does not follow mythic structure. One can believe a myth is actually true but we know it's been written following all known mythic styles.
At 15:30 some of the mythic structure is outlined.


My comment also relates to how closely Christianity follows pagan mythology.
It's a waste of time to say it isn't when we have early Christians explaining that the devil did this on purpose. Their explanation of why Christ mirrors paganism is the devil. If it didn't actually mirror paganism why would they say the devil did that.

Why would Justin Mryter say that Christians should not mock pagans because they both are very similar?

Myths all have a score on the
The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type mythic structure and Jesus fits this structure exactly.

The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type (and Jesus)



The point you have been making about "everyones life is similar" and I keep saying that mythic happenings don't ever happen in real life. The author actually says "ever" just like I did. I did not see this article until just now:
This is that:


Real life is not like that
I would like to make one more point. One scholarly study I have read attempted to explain the coincidence between the gospel narratives of Jesus and the structures and themes found in dramatic literature by saying that Jesus’ life just happened to work out that way. But that is not how real life works, ever. Lord Raglan’s thesis may add strength to other scholarly research that suggests that some of the gospels were written for performance.

There are three rules that apply to all dramatic performances. They are:

  1. Everything said or done upon the stage must be clearly audible or visible to the audience.
  2. Everything said or done upon the stage must be related to the plot or main theme of the drama.
  3. The interest of the audience must never be allowed to flag.
When we say that a situation is dramatic we imply that these rules have been observed, but in real life they never are. Nothing has ever happened in real life that, if presented on the stage exactly as it happened, would hold the attention of an audience for half an hour. The difference between a play which is regarded as realistic and one which is not is that while in the latter there is nothing which bears any resemblance to real life, in the former the actors say and do what real people might conceivably say and do, but they say and do in a couple of hours interesting and exciting things which in real life would take weeks or months. All the dull things that happen in between are left out; we spend most of our time in working, eating, sleeping, washing, and dressing and in talking about them when we are not doing them, but the actors in drama seldom do any of these things, or even mention them. The reason for this is that even in the most realistic drama the actors are not really attempting to imitate real life; they are acting a drama, and must conform to the conventions of the drama. . . . .

And not only is the manner of the drama totally different from that of real life, but the plots are like nothing that really happens. In a drama the leading characters must be the same throughout, and the incidents must follow one another in a connected sequence; everything must work up to a climax. How different are our own lives as we look back upon them from the life of a hero of drama! In our case everything, or at least everything that might be considered interesting, is completely disconnected.

The same applies to dramatic narrative in the form of text on a page. Authors must fabricate order. Historians need to find it, too, from the data they have before them. If the data itself just happens to come fully framed with a single inevitable order one would have to be quite naive not to at least raise questions.

The Rank-Raglan Hero-Type (and Jesus)

I don't care if you believe a myth but saying it doesn't read as a myth is not true. I believe you are smarter than that so it isn't ignorance.

How do you know if im pretending anything?

No, im not pretending the bible does not read as mythic structure. You have not convinced me of that yet and you may never, but we will see. But i told you, im going to deal with this in small bits.

I will not be responding to all your posts again because ill be on my phone 2 hours. Im simply not going to do that.

I made some solid points on innana. Im gonna go back and look at your response to them and reply to that.
 
Of course the OT isn't going to admit where their god comes from??? Why do you think myths would ever reveal their earthly sources?????

Astrotheological gods pre-date all gods.


Astrotheology of the Ancients

The subject of what or who were the ancient gods has been the focus of much serious debate and wild speculation over the centuries. The reality is that the ancient gods were mainly astrotheological and/or based on natural, earthly forces. This fact is attested by numerous authorities over the millennia, including ancient writers reflecting upon their own religions and those of other known cultures. ...[T]he ancient authorities who knew that the gods were astronomical, i.e., the sun, moon, stars and planets, and elemental, i.e., water, fire, wind, etc., or natural, i.e., rivers and springs, included Epicharmos (c. 540-450 BCE), Prodikos (5th cent. BCE); Caesar (100-40 BCE) and Herodotus (484?-425 BCE).... (35-36)

We have seen how various ancient, pre-Christian writers explained that their gods were astrotheological and that astrology was a predominant ideology or "science" in the Pagan world. Like the Pagans, the early Church fathers discussed the pervasive astrotheology, as they could hardly avoid it, since it was their competition. Naturally, when they did address it their comments were often condescending or disparaging. For example, in Against the Heathen, theologian St. Athanasius (c. 293-373) attempted to raise the Christian god above all the rest, establishing the ancient worship as astrotheological and relating that mankind "gave the honour due to God first to the heaven and the sun and moon and the stars, thinking them to be not only gods, but also the causes of the other gods lower than themselves…"

It's just common sense. Sky-father gods are myths. There is nowhere in the OT where they are going to say "our god is really the sun"??

Please stay on point. I'm not as familiar with D.M. Murdocks work on astrotheology and I don't see a need to research it when there is already a debate with many unanswered threads about the historicity of Jesus.
"3 days" obviously taken from the sun myth but it's really neither here nor there. It's such a small point and we can see that it WAS COPIED from the OT anyways. Like I pointed out previously with those time markers from RC lecture.


And using the OT as a source to prove the OT is correct is the worst logic I have ever seen?
Did you really just say that?


"This is completely proven from the OT and NT that God is creator of the sun and is NOT his own creation."

Holy cr#$ you did???

You misunderstood my point on what the bible teaches.

I was not trying to prove Gods existence using the bible. I was simply proving what kind of God the bible teaches, via the bible passages.

See the difference?

The bible dont teach sun worship. It teaches that God transcends the sun and all creation.

But, yes, it also reveals that some people rejected God and worshiped other gods, including the sun.
 
Same to you.

Right, and we can trace the 3 days thing back to sun worship.

How?

I don't know if they took inspiration from Inanna on the 3 days but it's obvious that that myth goes right back to the original sun god worship. It isn't a coincidence.
The sun goes to it's darkest point and stays for 3 days then begins it's resurrection.
Jesus birthday was even put on the same day?
Please don't ask for evidence in the OT, no religion actually says they borrowed concepts from other myths.

The sun dont stay down 3 days, then rise. It goes down, then the next morning it rises. Thats not 3 days.

Of course it isn't fulfilled prophecy? It's an ancient Middle Eastern myth that is proven mythology.

The fact that they mention Inanna is actually proof that they borrowed the mythology. It's proof they knew the other myths.
They just decided to say "no, our god-man is the REAL one and HE resurrected in 3 days, not your god!"

No, its proof they did not barrow. Why adopt the very ideas and practices you are critisizing? That would not make sense.

At any rate, this 3 day thing, while obviously pagan, has zero impact on the historicity of Jesus. Since it's mythical in nature it does help support the mythicist theory a bit. But the fact that it's in the OT is complete proof the NT took it from there. But to say it's a prophecy means you have to prove the supernatural aspects. And we are right back at the beginning with no verification of the gospels at all.
But as to proof of mythology we have plenty of that. Even though you are pretending it's not true the mythic structure of the gospels is proven beyond a doubt.

I dont see it as proof. I see the gospels as historical structure, not mythic structure.

But sourcing the OT doesn't really work either.
scholarship has accepted Thomas Thompson's work on Abraham and other biblical patriarchs
as mythology.
It ruined his career in the 1970s but has since been accepted as credible work and proof of teh mythical nature of the OT.[/quote]

You know not all scholars agree right?

 
Same to you.

Right, and we can trace the 3 days thing back to sun worship.

How?

I don't know if they took inspiration from Inanna on the 3 days but it's obvious that that myth goes right back to the original sun god worship. It isn't a coincidence.
The sun goes to it's darkest point and stays for 3 days then begins it's resurrection.
Jesus birthday was even put on the same day?
Please don't ask for evidence in the OT, no religion actually says they borrowed concepts from other myths.

The sun dont stay down 3 days, then rise. It goes down, then the next morning it rises. Thats not 3 days.

Of course it isn't fulfilled prophecy? It's an ancient Middle Eastern myth that is proven mythology.

The fact that they mention Inanna is actually proof that they borrowed the mythology. It's proof they knew the other myths.
They just decided to say "no, our god-man is the REAL one and HE resurrected in 3 days, not your god!"

No, its proof they did not barrow. Why adopt the very ideas and practices you are critisizing? That would not make sense.

At any rate, this 3 day thing, while obviously pagan, has zero impact on the historicity of Jesus. Since it's mythical in nature it does help support the mythicist theory a bit. But the fact that it's in the OT is complete proof the NT took it from there. But to say it's a prophecy means you have to prove the supernatural aspects. And we are right back at the beginning with no verification of the gospels at all.
But as to proof of mythology we have plenty of that. Even though you are pretending it's not true the mythic structure of the gospels is proven beyond a doubt.

I dont see it as proof. I see the gospels as historical structure, not mythic structure.

But sourcing the OT doesn't really work either.
scholarship has accepted Thomas Thompson's work on Abraham and other biblical patriarchs
as mythology.
It ruined his career in the 1970s but has since been accepted as credible work and proof of teh mythical nature of the OT.[/quote]

You know not all scholars agree right?

 
Same to you.

Right, and we can trace the 3 days thing back to sun worship.

How?

I don't know if they took inspiration from Inanna on the 3 days but it's obvious that that myth goes right back to the original sun god worship. It isn't a coincidence.
The sun goes to it's darkest point and stays for 3 days then begins it's resurrection.
Jesus birthday was even put on the same day?
Please don't ask for evidence in the OT, no religion actually says they borrowed concepts from other myths.

The sun dont stay down 3 days, then rise. It goes down, then the next morning it rises. Thats not 3 days.

Of course it isn't fulfilled prophecy? It's an ancient Middle Eastern myth that is proven mythology.

The fact that they mention Inanna is actually proof that they borrowed the mythology. It's proof they knew the other myths.
They just decided to say "no, our god-man is the REAL one and HE resurrected in 3 days, not your god!"

No, its proof they did not barrow. Why adopt the very ideas and practices you are critisizing? That would not make sense.

At any rate, this 3 day thing, while obviously pagan, has zero impact on the historicity of Jesus. Since it's mythical in nature it does help support the mythicist theory a bit. But the fact that it's in the OT is complete proof the NT took it from there. But to say it's a prophecy means you have to prove the supernatural aspects. And we are right back at the beginning with no verification of the gospels at all.
But as to proof of mythology we have plenty of that. Even though you are pretending it's not true the mythic structure of the gospels is proven beyond a doubt.

I dont see it as proof. I see the gospels as historical structure, not mythic structure.

But sourcing the OT doesn't really work either.
scholarship has accepted Thomas Thompson's work on Abraham and other biblical patriarchs
as mythology.
It ruined his career in the 1970s but has since been accepted as credible work and proof of teh mythical nature of the OT.

You know not all scholars agree right?

 
If you had reason to say that I would listen, like if Jesus was in the Middle East right now doing miracles. If you said it every post it might get weird.
But I would probably say ' no, I really don't believe in any mythical stories as true".

I can't control what people say, I can only control my reactions to words. I'm powerless trying to control outside things, where I have power is internally. So I go to where the power is.

Ok, your other point.

I showed you that the NT referenced the OT. So, yes, if theres barrowing, honest authors give reference and credit. They sure do.
 
An eyewitness account is an account of a person who witnessed something firsthand. As in, they personally saw something with their own eyes.

Which means that Luke's account is not that of an eyewitness. If he heard the story from someone else who claims to have witnessed the thing, then we'd need to read that person's account, in order to be reading an eyewitness account.


They're not eyewitness accounts. They are people saying that they heard something from someone else.


If my sister saw a flying monkey, and I tell you that my sister told me that she saw a flying monkey, I am not providing you with an eyewitness account. I'd have to go get my sister and have her relay the story for you.


They are not the eyewitness accounts they are claimed to be. I'm tired of people trying to claim that they are.

We all know how stories end up altered over time and multiple re-tellings. Ever played the game Telephone?

If you convey the monkey story to the other person and the eyewitness approved what you said, then who cares that they did not say it themselves to the other person. Its the same story with there approval.

Right?
 
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