@2ndpillar, I would like to discuss things with you here, but you're being BLATANTLY insulting. Why do you think any person who want to continue conversing with someone who just continually insults them?
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Mormon Scholarship
- Thread starter Ellen Brown
- Start date
Wait a minute. You don't believe Paul when he says we shall be changed from corruptible to incorruptible in a twinkling of an eye? I think I see cracks in your foundation. Which heart surgeon came up with that analyisis.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Is it that your comprehension skills are incredibly lacking or do you just have a problem with selective ignorance?
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I have been to the Independence Mormon Visitor's Center. It seemed like a building full of badly done graven images. Not a good start.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I never believed in that being the noncompliant, rebellious woman that I am. In searching for a church, Mosque, or Synagogue since leaving them, ALL have been a boring disappointment, some even making me apprehensive about lightning blowing a hole in the ceiling.
I know presidents and famous people who believe(d) in beings that can cast demons, talk to fig trees, walk on water, talk to donkeys and take weekends off to save all humanity, while making it look like the ultimate sacrifice. Not to speak of prophets living three days inside giant tunas, talking snakes, etc.
Magic underwear looks very ordinary compared with that.
So, I am not sure what your point is. Do you think that believing in magical underwear is more ridiculous than believing in giant tunas providing B&B to selected prophets?
Ciao
- viole
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
It doesn't matter how "ridiculous" I think believing in magic underwear is. What matters is that Mormons don't believe their underwear is magic. If you want to compare beliefs to see where they fit on a scale of ridiculousness, I'd suggest that you start with something we actually do believe.
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I was accused of not knowing what the purpose of it is, so looked it up on "Google", for petes sake, so I know it is not a secret. Unless, I yet again do not understand, its meaning is symbolic of a Covenant between the wearer and Heavenly Father. It angers me that folk who do not know deliberately ridicule it out of rank ignorance.
Why is it that so many belief systems insist on respect and on pain of death with the Muslims? If you want respect, should you not be respectful?
Well, you believe that having a dark complexion is a punishment. Maybe not you, but the inventors of your belief.
Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition.”-
I mean, just google J. Smith (your prophet appointed by God, apparently) and what he thought of black people. For instance: "Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species".
I wonder why you get so revved up about magic underwear when the very creator of your religion was just a racist who introduced racist elements in his made up religion. I think that would be far more embarrassing than believing in bullet proof bras.
Ciao
- viole
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Oh, I see. Now we're going to move the goalposts. I called you out of claiming that we believe our underwear is somehow magical, and rather than just apologize, you move on to your next criticism.
You want to put up your Joseph-Smith-was-a-racist quotes against my Joseph-Smith-was-not-a-racist quotes? Okay. You quoted one statement from the "History of the Church" but you failed to quote it in context. You actually even cut it off mid-sentence! So, here's what Joseph Smith actually said, in January of 1843:
“At five went to Mr. Sollars’ with Elders Hyde and Richards. Elder Hyde inquired the situation of the negro. I replied, they came into the world slaves mentally and physically. Change their situation with the whites, and they would be like them. They have souls, and are subjects of salvation. Go into Cincinnati or any city, and find an educated negro, who rides in his carriage, and you will see a man who has risen by the powers of his own mind to his exalted state of respectability. The slaves in Washington are more refined than many in high places, and the black boys will take the shine of many of those they brush and wait on. “Elder Hyde remarked, ‘Put them on the level, and they will rise above me.’ I replied, if I raised you to be my equal, and then attempted to oppress you, would you not be indignant and try to rise above me, as did Oliver Cowdery, Peter Whitmer, and many others, who said I was a fallen Prophet, and they were capable of leading the people, although I never attempted to oppress them, but had always been lifting them up? Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization.” (I have underlined what you said. Anyone who wants to actually get at the truth can see that you weren't even making an attempt to be objective or balanced in trying to make your point.
White people in America who were completely without racial prejudices in the first half of the nineteenth century were a rare breed. Joseph Smith was far, far less racially prejudiced than the vast majority of his contemporaries. He personally ordained at least one Black man to the LDS priesthood. The priesthood ban was instituted by his successor, Brigham Young. Blacks had every right and privilege in the Church under Joseph Smith as Whites did. Hardly anyone in 19th century America believed in interracial marriage. Maybe that was short-sighted and prejudiced, but it was absolutely the norm at that time. You think Mormonism was racist? Take a look at the history of Southern white evangelicalism. Now that was the epitome of racism, and to some degree, still is.
Magic underwear? Bullet proof bras? You need to grow up, viole. I get revved up against lies, insults, ridicule and a general lack of common courtesy. Who the hell wouldn't? Whether you realize it or not, it is actually possible for an atheist to have a conversation with a theist that doesn't turn into a "How stupid can you possibly be?" thread. If you need some pointers on how to do this, I'd suggest you contact @LuisDantas for starters. There are actually many atheists on this thread who have the capacity for civility. If you can't learn to have a respectful adult conversation with people of faith, just say so, so that I can stop wasting my time.
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Gee, I would have not expected that people can take their metaphysical beliefs so seriously. Well, in that case, I apologize.
Maybe, instead of magic underwear, we can settle for holy underwear. Better?
Today I actually wanted to talk about the possibly Jewish ancestry of Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, but I think I’ll leave it for next time.
But why is that? That is something that really puzzles me. Why do people get offended when someone pokes, or try to poke “fun” at their religious beliefs? I also hold beliefs, but I cannot imagine myself getting offended if someone ridicules them.
I was also an evangelical Christian for most of my life, and as such I also believed in some seriously weird stuff, but I cannot recollect feeling offended or insulted by those nasty Swedish atheists at school. And believe me, they were much worse than me today.
Ciao
- viole
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I remember a woman I used to work with. She used to come up to me and say, "No offense but..." and then she'd complete the sentence by saying something that was clearly intended to offend. Nobody ridicules anyone else for any reason other than to be mean. That's a no-brainer.
I did not ask about meanness. I asked why you are offended. To make an example: i doubt Mother Teresa would have been offended if someone had asked her where Jesus got the fuel to take off to Heaven.
That does not mean that there are things that canot offend us.
If, for instance someone tells me that I look like a pig, then I have some justification to be offended. If, however, someone told me that only stupid people can accept helyocentrism, then I cannot possibly be offended.
So, why are you offended?
Ciao
- viole
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I am offended by your obviously insulting choice of words and by your demeaning tone. Perhaps you would be offended by someone telling you you're ugly, but wouldn't be offended by someone telling you your beliefs are stupid and that you're not too awfully bright if you believe them. I find both statements offensive. Call me touchy if it makes you feel any better, but if you can't understand how your remarks are insulting and demeaning, I'm at a loss as to know how to get through to you. So let's just drop it.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
Why would the idea that Lucifer (Satan) and Jesus Christ being related spiritually through God the Father by shocking?
Ellen Brown
Well-Known Member
I didn't expect it, and don't remember ever reading it. I knew about the Theology that Jesus is the Son of God, but never actually made the intellectual jump to question if satan was "a" Son of God also. I am still largely Muslim in my thinking so many things are an stretch for me. I was Muslim when Mormon Sisters approached me.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
No matter how much the LDS want to make it so, there is no evidence that Native American are of Israelite ancestry. There are a few interesting example of LDS fraud, particularly early on, where various Mormons would create so-called archaeological finds "proving" such a connection. Scientists have since debunked these.
Just a piece of trivia: Sitting Bull converted to Catholicism. Interesting thing for a medicine man to do. Black Elk did the same thing.
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
I believe the book of Job describes Satan as a son of God.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
"Now the day came about, and the angels of God came to stand beside the Lord, and the Adversary, too, came among them." Job 1:6
It is not clear from this verse whether HaSatan is part of this group of angels or whether is he considered separate. In Jewish understanding, as the "adversary" or "accuser," HaSatan is a kind of prosecuter of the Heavenly Court, and would be considered part of the group of beings in this verse.
FYI, although I used a Jewish translation from Chabad.org, the Hebrew actually reads "b'nei haElohim" sons of God, not angels of God. The actual question here, which no one seems to be identifying, is what does it MEAN when it says sons of God? Does it mean that God beget these beings? Did he create them and simply thinks of them as children? Does it simply mean that they have the sort of status that children would have? Clearly Christians, Jews, and the LDS answer these questions quite differently.
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