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Mormon Scholarship

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
Some of what the Mormons believe just goes around the bend for me, but just lots of Mormon Theology seems sound and inspired. This latest bit about Jesus and satan being brothers is a straight up shock to me. They justify the idea by using Isaiah 14:12 and Rev. 12:7-9, so I believe it is inarguable in my opinion.

The effect of this is to cause me to question some of my other arguments with their Theology. So, rather than go to YouTube for theological information, I went to a Mormon Visitor's Center to talk to them. Anything else is gossip.

Please, I do not want a rock throwing contest on this. We all know that the various denominations have different beliefs, and were it up to me there would be only ONE belief in God, to include Jews and Islam. There are some other points of their theology that I think I'll have to go to them to discuss. It is never easy is it?

Not anticipating a return to the church however.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.

1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
 

Woberts

The Perfumed Seneschal
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.

1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
That sounds like the plot of a Stephen King novel.
 

silvermoon383

Well-Known Member
1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.
Mormons married in any temple are married for eternity and have the potential to become creators like God is. Being married in the temple does not make such a eternal destiny a guarantee.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
No. It is simply to allow those who never had the chance to accept the gospel while alive the ability to partake of the requisite saving ordinances. It is up to them to decide if they wish to accept it or not.
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.

1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.


Why not just talk to them about it?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.
Thank you.

1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.
There are actually 159 operating temples throughout the world. Obviously, Mormons in many parts of the world could not possibly hope to be able to go to the temple in Salt Lake City. But all of them have the same purpose and function. According to the Church's website, "In temples, we can draw closer to the Lord, we can learn more about His plan for our happiness, we can receive essential ordinances for our exaltation, and we can perform vicarious service on behalf of those who have died without the gospel of Jesus Christ." I'd have more to add except that I'm due at a volunteer job I have in an hour and need to stop posting to get ready to go. Nobody is "destined" to become anything, and going to the temple is no guarantee of anything. It is, however, a step towards becoming more like our Father in Heaven.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
Nope, not even close. Here's a copy and paste of a post I wrote ten years ago. :D

First, some background material: The Church's fourth Article of Faith. It states, "We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and fourth, the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." This Article of Faith is important to our discussion.

We Latter-day Saints believe that (1) Baptism is a sacred ordinance required of everyone; (2) Baptisms must be performed by immersion by one who has been given the authority to do so, (3) When a person dies, his spirit leaves his physical body but does not cease to exist, (4) millions have died without receiving this ordinance, and (5) God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment.

Looking at each of these five points in greater detail...

(1) Baptism is a sacred ordinance (some would refer to it as a "sacrament") required of everyone who has ever lived. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ is recorded as having said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." He said, too, that "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." To further emphasize the need for baptism, Jesus Christ went to John the Baptist and asked that he baptize Him. If you will recall, John's response was to ask, "I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?" And Jesus' response was, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." We have clear evidence for the importance of baptism. It is not optional for us; it was not even optional for the one individual who has ever lived who was without sin.

(2) Baptisms must be performed by immersion by one who has been given the authority to do so. The Apostle Paul's words in Ephesians 4:5 that there should be only, "one Lord, one faith, [and] one baptism." When Jesus established His Church, He called and ordained specific individuals, giving them the authority to perform certain functions, including the ordinance of baptism. We Latter-day Saints do not believe that anyone who wishes to baptize someone else has the authority to do so. This authority must be passed down from one person who already holds it to someone else. John the Baptist held the proper authority to baptize, which is why Jesus specifically went to him.

(3) When a person dies, his spirit leaves his physical body but does not cease to exist. It goes to the Spirit World where it will reside until the resurrection of all mankind, at which time it will rejoin the physical body it once inhabited, that body having been renewed, restored to a perfect state and made immortal. The Spirit World is spoken of in the scriptures by two names: Paradise and Prison. It is referred to by both terms because it is both things. To the righteous, it is a place of peace and rest, but to the wicked, it is a Prison, a place where they will be tormented with guilt for the way in which they lived their lives. As the spirits of the deceased await the resurrection of their physical bodies, they continue to learn and grow spiritually. They also retain the free will given to them by God when they came to earth to experience mortality. Those who did not have the opportunity to hear or understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ while they were on earth, will have that chance while in the Spirit World. Jesus himself will not be there, as He is now with His Father in Heaven. But others, those who already have the knowledge of our Father's Plan of Salvation, will teach them and give them the opportunity to accept and take advantage of the gospel message. Once a person comes to realize the significance of Jesus Christ's Atonement on his behalf and is sincerely repentant of his sins, he has fulfilled the first two principles of the Gospel (as outlined in the fourth Article of Faith). He is now on his way to being a recipient of the grace offered to all by Jesus Christ.

(4) Millions have died without receiving this ordinance or having received it but not by the prescribed means (immersion) or by someone who had been given the proper authority to perform it. Many lived prior to when Jesus did. Many others have lived since then, but in parts of the world where Christianity was not known. Some live today in places where converting to Christianity is a capital offense. And finally, for reasons known only to God, some have simply not been able to grasp the truth when it was presented to them. They simply chose a different path, one that was probably right for them.

(5) God loves all of His children equally and has provided a way for everyone who has ever lived to receive this ordinance prior to the Last Judgment. It goes without saying that baptism is an earthly ordinance. It would be quite impossible to immerse a spirit in water. Going back to point #1, though, baptism is a required ordinance for entry into the Kingdom of God. Those spirits who accept the Gospel message while in the Spirit World have completed the first two steps towards receiving the Savior's gift of salvation. But without the help of someone on earth, they can go no further.

Hebrews 11:39-40 speaks of those whose faith was strong and who despite not having heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, were good people who lived essentially worthy lives, "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Just as Jesus Christ atoned for our sins, He has given us, the living, the opportunity of doing something to help those who went before us. As this passage explains, God has blessed us with greater knowledge than they had and has given us the privilege of helping them reach a goal they could not otherwise reach; the fulness of salvation and eternal life in the presence of God. As in ancient times, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practice vicarious baptism for our deceased ancestors who died without having received this ordinance. I can, and have, stood in as a proxy for someone who is dead, and have been baptized on their behalf.

In 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul used the practice of baptism for the dead as an argument to support the reality of the resurrection of us all. In referring to the members of Christ's Church who were privileged to perform proxy baptisms (for not all are), he asked, "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Many people make the mistake of assuming we believe that we are surreptitiously seeking to force our beliefs on those who have no choice in the matter. Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. We have no way of knowing which of the spirits awaiting the resurrection will be receptive to the message they hear. We are baptized on behalf of as many of our deceased ancestors as we can possibly identify. Their free will is every bit as operative in the Spirit World as it was during their mortal lives. Should they choose to accept this ordinance as it has been done for them, most likely by one of their descendants, it will be as if they had been baptized while they were here on earth. Should they reject it, it will be considered null and void. We do this work out of a genuine love and concern for those who cannot do it for themselves, and not for any other reason. (Our membership records, incidentally, do not include the names of those individuals for whom we have performed proxy baptisms.)

At any rate, that's the doctrine as we practice it. We believed it was revealed to latter-day prophets that this work was to be done, and we are grateful to be able to do it.
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.

1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.

2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
@Katzpur already beat me to this answer and her very thorough answer is very good. But if you want a second person to use their own words, I'll do that as well (I'm much briefer than Katz).
I'll throw out my current understanding of mormons and await correction.
.
I applaud you here. Thank you.
1. Mormons married in the salt lake temple are married for eternity and are destined to become the god and goddess of their own world.
-Mormons actually have temples throughout the entire world, so no reason to go to Salt Lake particularly.
-LDS don't believe that anyone is "destined" for anything.
-The "god and goddess of their own world" is a cartoonization of LDS afterlife beliefs, akin to folks describing Heaven as "sitting around playing the harp all day". A more accurate description of LDS beliefs is that we believe that in the eternities Christ's followers can become one with Him / co-heirs with Him. This is all done through His atonement.
2. The dead that the mormons baptize will become people on the world they rule. The more they baptize the more people they rule.
No. Just no.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
@Katzpur already beat me to this answer and her very thorough answer is very good. But if you want a second person to use their own words, I'll do that as well (I'm much briefer than Katz).

I applaud you here. Thank you.

-Mormons actually have temples throughout the entire world, so no reason to go to Salt Lake particularly.
-LDS don't believe that anyone is "destined" for anything.
-The "god and goddess of their own world" is a cartoonization of LDS afterlife beliefs, akin to folks describing Heaven as "sitting around playing the harp all day". A more accurate description of LDS beliefs is that we believe that in the eternities Christ's followers can become one with Him / co-heirs with Him. This is all done through His atonement.

No. Just no.

You really haven't answered the questions. Do you get your own world. If you remarried your husband's brother, do you get two worlds. And why are the dead baptized. What happens to your dead brother who you get baptized for, and what happens to your dead brother who you don't like, and decided not to get baptized for. Is it like the English sin eating, whereas the sin eaters are paid to eat the sins of the dead. A job which generally goes to the very poor, and hopefully for the sin eater, gets past to his son, who then eats his accumulated sins.
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
You really haven't answered the questions.
I apologize if it seems that way. I shall go through each of your comments here very specifically.
Do you get your own world.
Don't know and don't care. It doesn't remotely matter to me. Much like asking- "hey how many square feet is your mansion in heaven?"
If you remarried your husband's brother, do you get two worlds.
??? What the ???
And why are the dead baptized.
The same reason living people are baptized: for the remission of sins as they make a covenant with God.

Some people have the opportunity to do this themselves while alive. Others don't, and are given the opportunity to accept such a baptism done by proxy (you can't dunk a spirit).
What happens to your dead brother who you get baptized for
That's up to him.
Does he want to repent of His sins, take Christ's name upon him, and accept that proxy baptism? If he does, then it's the same course of action as anyone else who chooses to accept Christ this way.
If he doesn't want anything to do with Christ, then it's the same course of action as anyone else who doesn't want anything to do with Christ.
and what happens to your dead brother who you don't like, and decided not to get baptized for.
Everyone will have the opportunity to be baptized. If they don't have the chance during life, then they'll have the chance in death via proxy. If you refuse to do it, then someone else will be there for your brother and do it.
Is it like the English sin eating, whereas the sin eaters are paid to eat the sins of the dead. A job which generally goes to the very poor, and hopefully for the sin eater, gets past to his son, who then eats his accumulated sins.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
The only person accountable for Dave's sins are Dave. Dave can choose to accept Christ and have Christ take that burden from Him. But again, that's Dave's choice.
 
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Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
You really haven't answered the questions. Do you get your own world. If you remarried your husband's brother, do you get two worlds. And why are the dead baptized. What happens to your dead brother who you get baptized for, and what happens to your dead brother who you don't like, and decided not to get baptized for. Is it like the English sin eating, whereas the sin eaters are paid to eat the sins of the dead. A job which generally goes to the very poor, and hopefully for the sin eater, gets past to his son, who then eats his accumulated sins.


1 Cor 15:29 Baptism of the Dead.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I apologize if it seems that way. I shall go through each of your comments here very specifically.

Don't know and don't care. It doesn't remotely matter to me. Much like asking- "hey how many square feet is your mansion in heaven?"

??? What the ???

The same reason living people are baptized: for the remission of sins as they make a covenant with God.

Some people have the opportunity to do this themselves while alive. Others don't, and are given the opportunity to accept such a baptism done by proxy (you can't dunk a spirit).

That's up to him.
Does he want to repent of His sins, take Christ's name upon him, and accept that proxy baptism? If he does, then it's the same course of action as anyone else who chooses to accept Christ this way.
If he doesn't want anything to do with Christ, then it's the same course of action as anyone else who doesn't want anything to do with Christ.

Everyone will have the opportunity to be baptized. If they don't have the chance during life, then they'll have the chance in death via proxy. If you refuse to do it, then someone else will be there for your brother and do it.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
The only person accountable for Dave's sins are Dave. Dave can choose to accept Christ and have Christ take that burden from Him. But again, that's Dave's choice.

Jeremiah 31:30,"every one will die for his own iniquity (sin)". If one receives of the "plagues" of the daughter of Babylon (Revelation 18:4), they certainly have not been forgiven their sins, and they will certainly die, irrespective of what the false prophet Paul might have taught. Yeshua told the man to sin no more, after he forgave the man's sins, and healed the man, and warned him, less something worse befalls you. If the man sins again, who will heal the man (forgive his sins) of his worse ailments?
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
That doesn't answer the question of why Paul is baptized for Jane. Did Jane repent, and produce good fruit (Mt 3)?
All the promised made during a baptisms (for living or dead person) are dependent on that person holding to them. If any person refuses to repent, then that person has forsaken their promise with Christ.
 

Jane.Doe

Active Member
Jeremiah 31:30,"every one will die for his own iniquity (sin)". If one receives of the "plagues" of the daughter of Babylon (Revelation 18:4), they certainly have not been forgiven their sins, and they will certainly die, irrespective of what the false prophet Paul might have taught. Yeshua told the man to sin no more, after he forgave the man's sins, and healed the man, and warned him, less something worse befalls you. If the man sins again, who will heal the man (forgive his sins) of his worse ailments?
Christ heals all wounds and takes all sins away to those who would repent (living or dead).
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Don't know and don't care. It doesn't remotely matter to me. Much like asking- "hey how many square feet is your mansion in heaven?"

If the saints are under an altar (Revelation 6:9), and they are only raised on the Day of the LORD, the beginning of the millennium to rule with "Christ" (Revelation 20:4), what makes you think you get a mansion upon your death? I think you will probably find the bones of the original Joseph Smith buried in the earth. What would he need a mansion for? I would think the only use for a mansion would be for after the saints are raised and reign over the kingdom of God during the millennium. I am not saying that Mormons are saints.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Christ heals all wounds and takes all sins away to those who would repent (living or dead).

Are you without sickness (without sin), or do you have insurance, and go to a doctor to be healed? Or do you know someone who is righteous, and can heal you through their prayer after your confession? (James 5:14-16)
 

Ellen Brown

Well-Known Member
That doesn't answer the question of why Paul is baptized for Jane. Did Jane repent, and produce good fruit (Mt 3)? Is Paul just a false prophet in sheep's clothing, throwing sand in people's eyes?(Mt 7:15)


There are things about the Catholics that I find completely inscrutable. Same for the Baptists, and for the Amish, and Buddhists. Just because you lack understanding of another belief does not make you right and them wrong. Perhaps you are not privy to the "why", but can practice obedience? We are here to learn and experience, not to dictate.
 
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