Why Was Jesus Necessary?

KenS said:

with "my" free will? You still are leaving me with not understanding.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I phrased it that way to reinforce the fact that I don't believe in free will, but for the sake of discussion will accept it as your condition. Sorry for the confusion.

.

Skwim said:

Yeah, I phrased it that way to reinforce the fact that I don't believe in free will, but for the sake of discussion will accept it as your condition. Sorry for the confusion.

.

Click to expand...

Not a problem...

Skwim said:

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Some say god wanted each individual to prove themselves worthy of such forgiveness. Okay, then why didn't he make the playing field level, where each and every person on earth had an equal chance? Why were only some apprised of god's requirement?---many, many never having got or getting the message. And not everyone is mentally capable of grasping the truth of god's test, yet they, along with the ignorant, have been left out of god's forgiveness. Others, such as myself, god has simply failed to convince; and whose fault is that; a puny mortal mind besting the best efforts of god? AND, as an omniscient being, god would be well aware of all these imminent failures. He knew that persons X, Y, and Z would never be on the receiving end of his forgiveness, but instead end up in hell or wherever. So, why even allow such poor unfortunate souls be born? Truthfully, as the story is laid out, god comes off as quite the heartless monster

So, nope, the notion of proving oneself worthy just doesn't wash, at least not under the auspices of an all-loving and benevolent god, which puts us right back at square one. Why did god even bother with Jesus?


Ideas?


.

Click to expand...

Jesus as an instructor......said many things the local authority did not like
and Man has a habit of killing the messenger.

the instruction appears simple enough

the reaction was predictable

as for God being heartless?......
the peace of heaven is guarded
you might need some instruction
before attempting to walk among the angelic

Skwim said:

Nope. Go back to the Title and OP and reread them.

.

Click to expand...

You ask if anyone had any idea, so I gave my idea.

Here's what you said ( In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?)

And I gave my answer ( The Question isn't, Why did God even bother with Jesus, The Question is ? Why did God come down here in the body of Christ Jesus?,
Because God was not going to send any more Prophets, God came down here himself in the body of Jesus to give it straight to people himself)

My other question is.

You also said in your post ( "And, as an Omniscient being, God would be well aware of all these imminent failures)

Now my question is, Can you give the book and chapter and verse's in the Bible to where it is written that God as being
( Omniscient) As you say God is ?

When there is no where written in the Bible, that God is Omniscient ( All knowing ) as people say he is.

You will not even find the word
( Omniscient ) in the Bible.

But you will find the word ( Omnipotent)
Which only means, ( All powerful ) But nothing written God as being
( Omniscient ) ( All knowing )

There are to many places in the bible that will refute this idea of God being (Omniscient, All knowing)

If God is All knowing as people say he is, Then why would God, need to ask Adam why he hide himself.

If God knew before hand, that Lucifer
( Satan) was going to be evil.

Then why would God say, that Lucifer was Perfect in all his ways, ( till ) lawlessness was found in him?

This means that God did not know, that Lucifer ( Satan) was going to be evil.

( Till ) lawlessness was found in Lucifer
( Satan)
You can read about this in the book of
Ezekiel 28:15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created,
Till iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( Till ) this means, God did not know, that Lucifer ( Satan ) was going to be evil, ( Till lawlessness was found in him)
The word ( Till) means = A less formal way of saying until.
synonyms: until, to, up to, through (to), up until, as late as
"he'll be in London till July"
before, prior to, previous to, up to, up until, earlier than
"we didn't know about this till yesterday)
God didn't know about this ( Till ) ( Until ) it was found in Lucifer ( Satan ) was going to be evil.

Therefore God did not know ( Till ) ( Until)
Lawlessness was found in Lucifer ( Satan)
So how is it that people say,
God being All knowing. When the Bible proves otherwise.
So how is it that God is All knowing, when God did not know, ( Till )( Until ) lawlessness was found in Lucifer ( Satan)

This is what happen's with people in the churches, Pastors will tell them things, without questioning it, off people go running. But yet people will say, it's in the Bible, without them checking it out first, Then they go about spreading these falsehoods.

Has anyone, any idea what Jesus has to say about this in the book of
Matthew 23:15---"
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

As you can see and read, Jesus condemned the Scribes and Pharisees, that went about trying to covert people, and when they did convert people, they made them twice more the child of hell than themselves.
All because the Scribes and Pharisees, like people to day in the churches are spreading their falsehoods. Thereby making people more the child of hell by their falsehoods teachings, than themselves.

nPeace said:

Questions about Jesus’ death

• Why did Jesus have to suffer and die to redeem humans? Why didn’t God just cancel the death sentence?
  
  God’s law states that “the wages sin pays is death.” (Romans 6:23) Rather than hide this law from Adam, God told him that the penalty for disobedience would be death. (Genesis 3:3) When Adam sinned, God, “who cannot lie,” kept his word. (Titus 1:2) Adam passed on to his descendants not only sin but also the wages of sin—death.
  
  Although sinful humans deserve the penalty of death, God extended to them “the riches of his undeserved kindness.” (Ephesians 1:7) His provision to redeem mankind—sending Jesus as a perfect sacrifice—was both profoundly just and supremely merciful.

Why Did Jesus Die?

Click to expand...

Who wrote "god's laws" in the first place? It seems that something OTHER than god must have written them-- it appears god is too weak to change them? Or not allowed?

Or? God didn't write them in the first place...!

Hmmmmmm...

KenS said:

True, a contrite heart God wants, but He also had a High priest go into the Holy of Holies once a year with the sacrifice of animals.

Click to expand...

That's pretty sick all by itself-- the demand of sacrificial animals, I mean.

Deeje said:

If this is what you think God did then no wonder you are 'cheesed off' at him...I would be too.

But your evaluation is based on gross misinformation. Ignorance is a terrible teacher. And devilish propaganda works on an angry heart.

Click to expand...

Notebook: The above? Is known as Attacking The Messenger.

Notice that the post is critical of me, personally-- but in NO WAY offers up any argument(s) that could contradict what I wrote.

In fact? 100% of what I wrote is 100% ignored by the above post...!

All we have, instead, is trash-talking about ME, on a personal level...!

Wow.. ... It's as if the poster had NO counter-arguments at all!

InChrist said:

God cannot do what goes against His own holy character, which includes justice. He can't just snap His fingers because justice requires consequences. How many judges in a courtroom snap their fingers and ignore the law even when someone is sorry?

Click to expand...

Who decides what goes against this myth you've constructed? YOU?

Hmmmm.... again, you paint a very weak, inept god who simply fails the question:

"IS IT GODLY".

In the case of your little god? No.

leapfrog7 said:

Most theologians understand that this child, the HE will crush your head. is in fact the Seed of the woman, in the future is Christ!

Click to expand...

Where does it say THAT? Seriously? Let's just rewrite the whole thing, shall we?

*sigh*

leapfrog7 said:

Just to be human I never take rebuke to heart!.

Click to expand...

I have no idea what you mean by this-- what "rebuke"? Seriously, what are you attempting to paint, here with your words? What's your extended thought pattern, and where did it come from?

leapfrog7 said:

So if you are a unbeliever, with enmity toward the very thought of a God,.

Click to expand...

Projection. You are literally projecting your OWN ideas onto what I said.

I have NO enmity towards the very thought of "god". Just towards what YOU call "god"!

Because YOUR ideas of god? Are the opposite of Just, Good, Godly, etc.

YOUR ideas of god? Are one of a narcissistic bully, who demands constant ego-stroking, who kills at a whim, who demands that women be treated as second-class, who considers all non-Hebrews as less than worthy, etc, etc, etc.

I'm speaking of the bible's beast-god, of course. A monster by any rational description.

There ARE better ideas of 'god' there, by the way! The Flying Spaghetti Monster, for example: A Superior God in every way that matters.

leapfrog7 said:

why would you make statement's with malice toward a God you do not believe in?

Click to expand...

I'm pointing out the malice inherent within the bible's descriptions of "god".

I'm sorry you don't LIKE that-- but the bible's god IS an evil monster, according to the description as written.

Perhaps you could re-write the bible so it is in keeping with the things you CLAIM it is saying, instead of what it ACTUALLY says?

No?

Well..... don't blame ME for the malice you see!

IndigoChild5559 said:

Did David go to a priest in order to get forgiven? No, he simply confessed his sin, and Nathan pronounced him forgiven.

Don't you think it is far better to go to the person you have sinned against and make things right with them and seek THEIR forgiveness?

Click to expand...

Winner Comment! Imagine a world: Where people returned to those they have Wronged, and attempted to make Amends...

... instead of attempting a telepathic wish-casting ritual to an invisible entity that nobody can actually see...

Bob the Unbeliever said:

That's pretty sick all by itself-- the demand of sacrificial animals, I mean.

Click to expand...

Are you a vegetarian?

Muslims believe in their bible that Jesus was not executed at all especially by God.

Faithofchristian said:

You also said in your post ( "And, as an Omniscient being, God would be well aware of all these imminent failures)

Now my question is, Can you give the book and chapter and verse's in the Bible to where it is written that God as being
( Omniscient) As you say God is ?

When there is no where written in the Bible, that God is Omniscient ( All knowing ) as people say he is.

You will not even find the word
( Omniscient ) in the Bible.

But you will find the word ( Omnipotent)
Which only means, ( All powerful ) But nothing written God as being
( Omniscient ) ( All knowing )

There are to many places in the bible that will refute this idea of God being (Omniscient, All knowing)

If God is All knowing as people say he is, Then why would God, need to ask Adam why he hide himself.

If God knew before hand, that Lucifer
( Satan) was going to be evil.

Then why would God say, that Lucifer was Perfect in all his ways, ( till ) lawlessness was found in him?

This means that God did not know, that Lucifer ( Satan) was going to be evil.

( Till ) lawlessness was found in Lucifer
( Satan)
You can read about this in the book of
Ezekiel 28:15--"You was perfect in your ways from the day that you was created,
Till iniquity was found in you"

Notice the word ( Till ) this means, God did not know, that Lucifer ( Satan ) was going to be evil, ( Till lawlessness was found in him)
The word ( Till) means = A less formal way of saying until.
synonyms: until, to, up to, through (to), up until, as late as
"he'll be in London till July"
before, prior to, previous to, up to, up until, earlier than
"we didn't know about this till yesterday)
God didn't know about this ( Till ) ( Until ) it was found in Lucifer ( Satan ) was going to be evil.

Therefore God did not know ( Till ) ( Until)
Lawlessness was found in Lucifer ( Satan)
So how is it that people say,
God being All knowing. When the Bible proves otherwise.
So how is it that God is All knowing, when God did not know, ( Till )( Until ) lawlessness was found in Lucifer ( Satan)

This is what happen's with people in the churches, Pastors will tell them things, without questioning it, off people go running. But yet people will say, it's in the Bible, without them checking it out first, Then they go about spreading these falsehoods.

Has anyone, any idea what Jesus has to say about this in the book of
Matthew 23:15---"
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves"

As you can see and read, Jesus condemned the Scribes and Pharisees, that went about trying to covert people, and when they did convert people, they made them twice more the child of hell than themselves.
All because the Scribes and Pharisees, like people to day in the churches are spreading their falsehoods. Thereby making people more the child of hell by their falsehoods teachings, than themselves.

Click to expand...

As you point out here, people say he is. Don't agree with them? Fine. Then disregard what they and I said about his omnipotence.

.

Skwim said:

In the new testament we have a god who wanted to forgive all mankind of its sins. Fine, but then why didn't he just forgive them? Why was it necessary to have a human sacrifice? To have his son tortured and executed In order for the sins of all mankind to be absolved?

Click to expand...

God wanted to defeat death. He defeated death in his own game.

Skwim said:

As you point out here, people say he is. Don't agree with them? Fine. Then disregard what they and I said about his omnipotence.

.

Click to expand...

First you said God is ( Omniscient ) now your switching it to ( Omnipotent)
So which is it.
Omnipotent only means God is all powerful.
That I can agree with.

But to say God is ( Omniscient ) which means ( all knowing ) this I disagree with.
For the very reason that there is no where in the Bible written that God is Omniscient.

I would like to see the book and chapter and verse's where this is written at in the Bible

syo said:

God wanted to defeat death. He defeated death in his own game.

Click to expand...

And that goes to the heart of my question; why a game that involved the torture and death of his own "son," and the tribulations of his newly created creatures, when a snap of the fingers could have solved everything?

.

Faithofchristian said:

First you said God is ( Omniscient ) now your switching it to ( Omnipotent)

Click to expand...

Not at all. From the way most Christians describe god he's both, and more.

But to say God is ( Omniscient ) which means ( all knowing ) this I disagree with.
For the very reason that there is no where in the Bible written that God is Omniscient.

I would like to see the book and chapter and verse's where this is written at in the Bible

Click to expand...

As I just said to Faithofchristian, "People say he is." In fact, 87% of all Christians believe god is omniscient, which I feel is considerable.


Don't agree with them? Fine. Then feel free to disregard what they and I say about his omnipotence.

.

Skwim said:

Not at all. From the way most Christians describe god he's both, and more.


As I just said to Faithofchristian, "People say he is." In fact, 87% of all Christians believe god is omniscient, which I feel is considerable.

​

Don't agree with them? Fine. Then feel free to disregard what they and I say about his omnipotence.

.

Click to expand...

Your right on that one saying Most Christians)
And the only place most Christians get that from is their Pastors, Preachers.

You said --> ( In fact, 87% of all Christians believe god is omniscient, which I feel is considerable)

Ok so you believe the Majority of Christians to be right.

So you believe the Majority of the people were right to crucify Jesus.

When in fact there was only a few who stood by Jesus.
This only shows that the Majority was wrong.

If you want to stand with the Majority, I will stand with the few.and God's word the Bible.

Faithofchristian said:

Your right on that one saying Most Christians)
And the only place most Christians get that from is their Pastors, Preachers.

Click to expand...

Which is where most Christians get their beliefs. So.

You said --> ( In fact, 87% of all Christians believe god is omniscient, which I feel is considerable)
Ok so you believe the Majority of Christians to be right.

Click to expand...

No, I feel this what the majority of Christians believe. Right or wrong doesn't enter into it.

So you believe the Majority of the people were right to crucify Jesus.

Click to expand...

I give up.

Have a good day.

.