Why does God not talk to us?

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Well.... now you've just Moved The Goal-Posts. Again.

That's okay though-- based on just what you wrote? A person could get just as much out of striving against the general belief that Unicorns are Myth.

So, sure-- why not? Striving against can make a person better than they otherwise might have been.

Why bring in unproved supernatural woo?

For me, it’s not particularly supernatural; it’s eminently natural. There’s some anecdotal evidence heard on NPR that’s apropos:
A biodrome experiment noted that young saplings weren’t growing stiff; they tended to flop as they grew. They learned the reason was because there was no wind. Resisting the wind makes trees grow strong.

For me, religion provides a platform to resist sameness, and a crucible in which to test my mettle, so to speak.

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

sojourner said:
You’re right. Provided, of course, that the unicorns reflected real human issues of relationship, morality, power, and truth. .

You've never been exposed to an interesting sub-culture known as "furries" have you?

If you do dig into the lives of these people, you'll quickly discover a large fraction are very much affected by Unicorns of various stripes. Me? I'm neither a furry nor a Unicorn-o-phile, but there you go...

Interestingly enough, none of those folk want to force-feed their views by creating Laws based on their beliefs.

In direct contrast to MOST THEISTS..... !

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

sojourner said:
For me, it’s not particularly supernatural; it’s eminently natural. There’s some anecdotal evidence heard on NPR that’s apropos:
A biodrome experiment noted that young saplings weren’t growing stiff; they tended to flop as they grew. They learned the reason was because there was no wind. Resisting the wind makes trees grow strong.

For me, religion provides a platform to resist sameness, and a crucible in which to test my mettle, so to speak.

Interesting anecdote, if accurate. Of course, greenhouse plants do just fine, when trans-planted. And greenhouses are a common way to "bootstrap" fruit trees, so I suspect the anecdote is just that-- an amusing story, but not actually factual.

Point of fact: Gravity is still the single most continuous force affecting life on the surface of Earth (well, life that is above a certain volume.... ).

Trees growing under the influence of gravity will need to be strong enough to support their own mass-- and "floppy trees" would fail at that pretty quickly...

Moreover, the story 100% ignores how trees actually do grow-- they grow up from the tips, and they steadily increase in diameter, pretty much at the same time.

Thus, a nail driven into a tree-trunk at the 3 foot mark? Will still be at 3 feet after 20 years, but likely will be deeply embedded into the bark or even deep into the trunk.

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
You've never been exposed to an interesting sub-culture known as "furries" have you?

If you do dig into the lives of these people, you'll quickly discover a large fraction are very much affected by Unicorns of various stripes. Me? I'm neither a furry nor a Unicorn-o-phile, but there you go...

Interestingly enough, none of those folk want to force-feed their views by creating Laws based on their beliefs.

In direct contrast to MOST THEISTS..... !

Yeah, and, you know, I just don’t get that. Jesus made clear that every law depends on love; IOW, love is the Giant Trump Card. Xy is supposed to be “Let go and let come.” No, not familiar with Furries...

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Interesting anecdote, if accurate. Of course, greenhouse plants do just fine, when trans-planted. And greenhouses are a common way to "bootstrap" fruit trees, so I suspect the anecdote is just that-- an amusing story, but not actually factual.

Point of fact: Gravity is still the single most continuous force affecting life on the surface of Earth (well, life that is above a certain volume.... ).

Trees growing under the influence of gravity will need to be strong enough to support their own mass-- and "floppy trees" would fail at that pretty quickly...

Moreover, the story 100% ignores how trees actually do grow-- they grow up from the tips, and they steadily increase in diameter, pretty much at the same time.

Thus, a nail driven into a tree-trunk at the 3 foot mark? Will still be at 3 feet after 20 years, but likely will be deeply embedded into the bark or even deep into the trunk.

Well, they were talking about saplings only... and I don’t remember the length of the experiment. I seem to remember that they did say they introduced wind into the environment and subsequent saplings didn’t do that. IDK — it was a long time ago. I could be misremembering something. HOWEVER, my premise is still solid: resistance builds muscle.

BilliardsBall · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Assuming you are serious, a safe assumption I think (and again I am sorry I jumped on your case), I suppose I could expound a bit.

I grew up in Assemblys Of God brand. From the day I was born, I was taken to church, and taught the bible. I literally grew up reading it for myself, once I learned how (to read).

There was a point I could quote the Gospel of John, verse-by-verse.... of course, by that time, I was using Good News For Modern Man, and that was not on the Officially Approved Bible List™, and I experienced some of the first "in house" persecution by my fellow Christians...

... I got that a lot, growing up, as I was a curios kid, and would often see a Conundrum with a particular Bible Story, and ask my "teacher" about it. I was always dismissed; my questions belittled, and not uncommon, told to spend the rest of Sunday School in the hall, "thinking about what you just said".

I quickly learned that Asking Questions was Forbidden. But I didn't stop, I simply quit asking stupid people. And indeed, as I grew older and older, I began to realize that "God's Leaders" were often mind-numbingly stupid.

Indeed-- I still remember to this day, a Sermon from the Head Preacher (who ruled his church with an iron fist) that described an Astronomical Phenomena that was going to take place in the 1980s. (this would have been the very early 70s, or perhaps the late 60s-- I remember the sermon, but I don't recall the exact date, other than it was on a Sunday Main Worship). As the preacher waxed lyrical about the Impending Doom? It hit me-- he had absolutely no freaking CLUE what he was going on about! He was clueless how fricking huge the Solar System was. He had zero knowledge of how gravity works by Inverse Square-- and that the gravitational pull of a car had 1000 times the pull on his person, as the gravitational pull of, say, Saturn, and that when an Astronomer says "lined up" it's not the same thing as a dance hall coreorgrapher telling his dancers to line up...

That was such a Moment Of Realization for me-- the preacher was literally spewing lies direct from the pulpit, and god was doing damn-all to stop him-- not so much as a mild headache.... (well, *I* got one, due to the incredible level of BS coming down from that sermon-- he was preaching as if the "planetary alignment" would be causing Global Catastrophe from .... the combined pull of gravity on earth...! Now, I doubt he knew he was lying, as he was (I realized) dumber than a box of hammers, when it came to anything science-related... It was amazing he could operate a car safely...) (Yes, the planets did "line up" in the 1980s, but not like a line of bowling pins, as he preached...)

That was one of many examples that seemed to thwart my attempts to be a Good Christian, and Follow Jesus. I gave it my all-- I went to all the right camps. I prayed all the time (for a little kid, that is--still).

I had faith enough to move not only a mountain, but an entire chain....... !

But. Gradually, over a Life Time Of Me Searching? I began to realize: there simply was nobody else Out There--- and I could only wish I could have become comfortably numb to it all...

Time and time again, God let me, my family, and my friends down. Over and over. If you hit even the most stubborn, the most faithful, on the head with a Two By Four, they either Get The Message, or they become permanently brain damaged...

God simply was not there-- likely he never was; the scant few times I had thought god was there? Were easily explained as happenstance, or worse-- my wishful thoughts...

I was in my 40's before I came to realize that it was all a giant load of dingo's kidneys.

But yeah-- I tried to find god well into my 40s. The failure wasn't on my end. You cannot talk to that which simply isn't there in the first place. I rang and rang that phone-- nobody picked up. Ever.

Call me stubborn, that it took me that long-- but I had to be sure...

Let me be clear here, point by point, and please feel free to correct me:

1. I SINCERELY appreciate your detailing your experiences to me.

2. I'm sorry on the people front you dealt with stupid Christians. Every church I consider worth my precious time ENCOURAGES questions--after all, we Jews always use the Socratic method in teaching, learning and exploring Torah . . .

3. No, I don't know if the idiots you encountered in church were true Christians™ or poser Christians. However, God is kind, and saves stupid people and smart people both. I know a number of stupid people going to Heaven and I know some VERY smart people who will likely split Hell wide open after they die.

I've asked many, many skeptics who were former religious for their stories. You have some commonalities with those stories:

* God let you down when you needed His help/other people needed His help

* The people who should have been representing God were stupid and/or cruel to you

* You hung in there as long as you could and tried your best

* Bible and/or preacher foolishness was very offputting

There's something, however, I've never heard from such testimonies:

"Jesus and I were big buddies. We spoke, He listened and told me what to do, He was really there for me, and then He wasn't, so I questioned whether He'd ever really existed."

I say this because the testimony of me and other born agains is consistent that Jesus comes when we first ask, and grows and goes with us lifelong. I've never heard a story from a former religious person turned skeptic that Jesus was there, then wasn't. I've heard a lot of "I knew the Bible," but even Karl Marx knew the four gospels from memory due to having some REALLY religious parents, and Charles Darwin, who was deeply religious once upon a time, really knew the Bible well.

I DON'T want to judge you nor do I want you to feel judged, but I wanted to hear Jesus in your personal journey but didn't, and must assume you are yet to encounter the risen Christ. The One who triumphed over sin, this world and Satan, the One with great power but great kindness, is worthy of our relationship and even our obedience and even, our worship, IMHO.

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

sojourner said:
Yeah, and, you know, I just don’t get that. Jesus made clear that every law depends on love; IOW, love is the Giant Trump Card. Xy is supposed to be “Let go and let come.” No, not familiar with Furries...

Well, Love Conquers All, according to the various "experts" in the field.

Alas, looking about the planet? It's not always the case-- more often than not, it's **money** that conquers things, creating vast areas of helplessness and misery. Makes me wonder, if there be a god who cared? Why permit such legions of suffering, who live for generations without relief?

Notebook: If you google "furries"? Be certain you have your Protective Filters Up, and don't do it at work.

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

sojourner said:
Well, they were talking about saplings only... and I don’t remember the length of the experiment. I seem to remember that they did say they introduced wind into the environment and subsequent saplings didn’t do that. IDK — it was a long time ago. I could be misremembering something. HOWEVER, my premise is still solid: resistance builds muscle.

Well-- in *some* systems, resistance builds muscle. Mammals, especially it appears.

However, in concrete? If you don't leave it the heck alone, until a certain level of strength is reached without any load? It'll be much-much weaker than otherwise.....

Likewise, with Primary Colonizers (plants), if the eco system is well established, these plants will be much weaker, than if the lands are barren of plant life. It seems that Primary Colonizers are strongest when not competing for resources at all...

It seems that for every rule, there is an exception...

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

BilliardsBall said:
Let me be clear here, point by point, and please feel free to correct me:

1. I SINCERELY appreciate your detailing your experiences to me.

2. I'm sorry on the people front you dealt with stupid Christians. Every church I consider worth my precious time ENCOURAGES questions--after all, we Jews always use the Socratic method in teaching, learning and exploring Torah . . .

3. No, I don't know if the idiots you encountered in church were true Christians™ or poser Christians. However, God is kind, and saves stupid people and smart people both. I know a number of stupid people going to Heaven and I know some VERY smart people who will likely split Hell wide open after they die.

I've asked many, many skeptics who were former religious for their stories. You have some commonalities with those stories:

* God let you down when you needed His help/other people needed His help

* The people who should have been representing God were stupid and/or cruel to you

* You hung in there as long as you could and tried your best

* Bible and/or preacher foolishness was very offputting

There's something, however, I've never heard from such testimonies:

"Jesus and I were big buddies. We spoke, He listened and told me what to do, He was really there for me, and then He wasn't, so I questioned whether He'd ever really existed."

I say this because the testimony of me and other born agains is consistent that Jesus comes when we first ask, and grows and goes with us lifelong. I've never heard a story from a former religious person turned skeptic that Jesus was there, then wasn't. I've heard a lot of "I knew the Bible," but even Karl Marx knew the four gospels from memory due to having some REALLY religious parents, and Charles Darwin, who was deeply religious once upon a time, really knew the Bible well.

I DON'T want to judge you nor do I want you to feel judged, but I wanted to hear Jesus in your personal journey but didn't, and must assume you are yet to encounter the risen Christ. The One who triumphed over sin, this world and Satan, the One with great power but great kindness, is worthy of our relationship and even our obedience and even, our worship, IMHO.

Oh, I was one of the most Jesus People on the Planet, back in the day --- sure, I thought Jesus and I were Besties. At the time, I was sure of it.

Then I grew the heck up, and recognized all the times I thought I was talking to "Jesus", I was only talking to the mirror the whole time.

There is a very good reason why you don't hear "Jesus" in what I wrote -- is because Jesus was a total and complete failure to be there when needed most.

Abandonment is an Unforgivable Crime in my book.

I can overlook the weaknesses of mere humans. But. I can NEVER-EVER forgive weakness in a GOD.

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Well, Love Conquers All, according to the various "experts" in the field.

Alas, looking about the planet? It's not always the case-- more often than not, it's **money** that conquers things, creating vast areas of helplessness and misery. Makes me wonder, if there be a god who cared? Why permit such legions of suffering, who live for generations without relief?

Notebook: If you google "furries"? Be certain you have your Protective Filters Up, and don't do it at work.

Theodicy is admittedly a difficult one.

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Well-- in *some* systems, resistance builds muscle. Mammals, especially it appears.

However, in concrete? If you don't leave it the heck alone, until a certain level of strength is reached without any load? It'll be much-much weaker than otherwise.....

Likewise, with Primary Colonizers (plants), if the eco system is well established, these plants will be much weaker, than if the lands are barren of plant life. It seems that Primary Colonizers are strongest when not competing for resources at all...

It seems that for every rule, there is an exception...

Of course...

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Oh, I was one of the most Jesus People on the Planet, back in the day --- sure, I thought Jesus and I were Besties. At the time, I was sure of it.

Then I grew the heck up, and recognized all the times I thought I was talking to "Jesus", I was only talking to the mirror the whole time.

There is a very good reason why you don't hear "Jesus" in what I wrote -- is because Jesus was a total and complete failure to be there when needed most.

Abandonment is an Unforgivable Crime in my book.

I can overlook the weaknesses of mere humans. But. I can NEVER-EVER forgive weakness in a GOD.

I think Jesus is a wonderful reflector.

I won’t pretend to counsel you, but that experience appears to still carry a lot of energy for you. That’s as far as I plan to go down that road.

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 13, 2018

sojourner said:
I think Jesus is a wonderful reflector.

I won’t pretend to counsel you, but that experience appears to still carry a lot of energy for you. That’s as far as I plan to go down that road.

It only seems to have a lot of energy-- don't forget, this forum is deliberately filtered towards the subject, and can compress meaning where there really isn't any.....

sojourner · Jul 13, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
It only seems to have a lot of energy-- don't forget, this forum is deliberately filtered towards the subject, and can compress meaning where there really isn't any.....

Gotcha. Cheers!

Trailblazer · Jul 14, 2018

SerenelyBlue said:
Why does God act as if he is non existent?

I just happen to have an answer to this question because I wrote it up to my atheist friend on another forum and posted it today.

He keeps saying that a real god probably would show up, and by showing up wouldn't need people like me to make all manner of excuses for his not showing up.

So this is how I answered him:

A real God CANNOT show up. You are living in an absolute fantasy of your own making. There is no reason to think that a real God would show up and every reason to think that a real God would not show up. The main reason the real God would not show up is because the real God CANNOT show up. In short, an immaterial Being cannot present itself in a material world. This is logic 101 stuff.

So, what the real God does is manifest Himself in the form of a man who is called a Manifestation of God because He perfectly manifests God’s attributes. He is called is also called a Messenger because He brings a message from God. In the passage below the Manifestation of God is referred to as “Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation.” Pay close attention to the last sentence, it is very important.

“Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 49

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 14, 2018

Trailblazer said:
, an immaterial Being cannot present itself in a material world.

Thus--- your god does not, in fact, exist at all! That's kind of how this works...!

Moreover? It shows yet one more thing (among 1000's of similar things) that your "all powerful" god is less than capable of doing... !

"all powerful" becomes "not that much power"....

.. in fact, since it cannot exist in the material world at all? "No power god"....

Why call it god at all?

Trailblazer · Jul 14, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
, an immaterial Being cannot present itself in a material world.
Thus--- your god does not, in fact, exist at all! That's kind of how this works...!

No, that is illogical because God can exist in the spiritual realm.

Also Bob, just because God does not present Himself does not mean that God is not hanging around....
God is omnipresent even though we cannot see Him.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
Moreover? It shows yet one more thing (among 1000's of similar things) that your "all powerful" god is less than capable of doing... !

"all powerful" becomes "not that much power"....

No, that does not equate to not being All-Powerful. God does not materialize in the material realm since it is not within God’s nature to become a material being. It is that simple.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
.. in fact, since it cannot exist in the material world at all? "No power god"....

Why call it god at all?

Because there is nothing else we can call it?

Bob the Unbeliever · Jul 14, 2018

Trailblazer said:
No, that is illogical because God can exist in the spiritual realm..

Now, you're just moving the goal-posts around-- first it's god can't be in the material world, then it's god is in some magical place, then it's.....

Make up your mind!

Trailblazer said:
Also Bob, just because God does not present Himself does not mean that God is not hanging around....
God is omnipresent even though we cannot see Him..

Contradiction! You said god wasn't IN the material world-- if not? God's not real, by definition.

There is no magical "other" realm, unless you have proof? No?

Trailblazer said:
No, that does not equate to not being All-Powerful. God does not materialize in the material realm since it is not within God’s nature to become a material being. It is that simple..

Yes---yes we agree: your god isn't real (not material). There is nothing else.

Unless you have proof? No?

Trailblazer said:
Because there is nothing else we can call it?

How about "not existent"? How about "fairy tale"?

Trailblazer · Jul 15, 2018

Bob the Unbeliever said:
“No, that is illogical because God can exist in the spiritual realm..”
Now, you're just moving the goal-posts around-- first it's god can't be in the material world, then it's god is in some magical place, then it's.....
Make up your mind!

Nobody knows where God is or what God is doing at any time because God is unknowable, a Mystery of Mysteries, but we say God is in the spiritual realm because we know God is not in the material realm, and the spiritual realm is all-inclusive of everything that is not the material realm... But given God is omnipresent God can be everywhere all at once. How that is possible is not something we humans can comprehend.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
“Also Bob, just because God does not present Himself does not mean that God is not hanging around....
God is omnipresent even though we cannot see Him..”
Contradiction! You said god wasn't IN the material world-- if not? God's not real, by definition.

That depends upon what you consider real.
I believe the spiritual world is very real even though we cannot prove it as a fact.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
There is no magical "other" realm, unless you have proof? No?

There is evidence that the spiritual realm actually exists, even if there is no scientific proof.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
“No, that does not equate to not being All-Powerful. God does not materialize in the material realm since it is not within God’s nature to become a material being. It is that simple.”
Yes---yes we agree: your god isn't real (not material). There is nothing else.
Unless you have proof? No?

No, there is no proof that God exists in reality; there is only evidence that indicates that. That evidence comes to us by way of religions that are revealed by God to Messengers.

Bob the Unbeliever said:
“Because there is nothing else we can call it?”
How about "not existent"? How about "fairy tale"?

You can call god that if that is how you see it. I see God as existent so I consider Him real.

URAVIP2ME · Jul 15, 2018

Mox said:
Maybe today, maybe in 6000 years, who knows?

Since I find Jesus' words narrowed down the time frame for us at Matthew 24:32-33, then it can't be far off.
The setting for Revelation is set taking place for our day or time frame as per Revelation 1:10.
I find we are at the ' final phase ' of Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 just as Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom of Daniel 2:44 would be proclaimed world wide as it is being done on an international scale today.
Also, I find we are nearing the ' final signal ', so to speak, of 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when ' they ' (the power that be) will be saying, " Peace and Security " as the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.

Why does God not talk to us?

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