Why does God not talk to us?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I disagree. Sure, one who is strong could force attention to be paid, but those tactics would be interpreted as bullying. And bullying rarely produces the kind of results desired: Love, reciprocity, selflessness, openness. Instead, God asks, God whispers, God entices.

As per the Bible, God stands at the door and knocks. If someone opens, God will enter. If no one answers, God does not tear the door down with a fire axe and come in anyway.

So you are saying your god is simply TOO WEAK to dial it back enough?

Nobody is saying anything about forcing attention-- but a Truly Spectacular, Stupendous god wouldn't need to do such.

Did anyone force people to watch the Moon Landings of the 1960s? No? Why not?

How about forcing someone to watch the hurricane destruction of <anywhere>? No? No need to force people to watch that?

How about forcing people to watch the World Cup Soccer/Football games? Okay--some people may really hate sports, but I betcha even THEY at least heard about the games and were peripherally aware of them....

Hmmm.... it seems your problem here, is the god YOU imagine is so dull, so incredibly weak, so completely devoid of any creative abilities, that is literally incapable of being heard -- unless some one deliberately does something weird, or worse, brain-damaging....!

What kind of Ultimate Creator is THAT? Certainly not one who has anything GOOD to say or do!

 

[sojourner]

So you are saying your god is simply TOO WEAK to dial it back enough?

Nobody is saying anything about forcing attention-- but a Truly Spectacular, Stupendous god wouldn't need to do such.

Did anyone force people to watch the Moon Landings of the 1960s? No? Why not?

How about forcing someone to watch the hurricane destruction of <anywhere>? No? No need to force people to watch that?

How about forcing people to watch the World Cup Soccer/Football games? Okay--some people may really hate sports, but I betcha even THEY at least heard about the games and were peripherally aware of them....

Hmmm.... it seems your problem here, is the god YOU imagine is so dull, so incredibly weak, so completely devoid of any creative abilities, that is literally incapable of being heard -- unless some one deliberately does something weird, or worse, brain-damaging....!

What kind of Ultimate Creator is THAT? Certainly not one who has anything GOOD to say or do!

What I’m saying is that people are really good at ignoring what’s right in front of them, they’re too distracted, too stubborn, too self-absorbed, too blatant.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

What I’m saying is that people are really good at ignoring what’s right in front of them, they’re too distracted, too stubborn, too self-absorbed, too blatant.

Again... you have to admit your god is incapable of dealing with any of that?

What you are doing, here, is blaming the victims!

Parents of unruly children have been successfully dealing with all the failings you listed above, and more-- and manage to turn out reasonably decent human beings in the process!

Are you now admitting that your god is less capable than a mildly above-average human parent?

 

[sojourner]

Again... you have to admit your god is incapable of dealing with any of that?

What you are doing, here, is blaming the victims!

Parents of unruly children have been successfully dealing with all the failings you listed above, and more-- and manage to turn out reasonably decent human beings in the process!

Are you now admitting that your god is less capable than a mildly above-average human parent?

Victims? There are no victims; there is hubris, willful ignorance, and closed-mindedness. One can lead a horse to water; one cannot make it drink. You missed everything I said about fostering love, reciprocity, cooperation, etc. Love is paramount. No one can force love or coerce love out of another. In order to love, one must let go, not try harder. God meets us halfway. We are co-creators of that relationship with God, because we are created in that image of God. It has nothing to do with “cannot.” It has everything to do with love.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Victims? There are no victims; there is hubris, willful ignorance, and closed-mindedness. One can lead a horse to water; one cannot make it drink. You missed everything I said about fostering love, reciprocity, cooperation, etc. Love is paramount. No one can force love or coerce love out of another. In order to love, one must let go, not try harder. God meets us halfway. We are co-creators of that relationship with God, because we are created in that image of God. It has nothing to do with “cannot.” It has everything to do with love.

Nope. Victims is absolutely correct: IF this "rejection" of your "god" causes a person to be less, or to suffer some unforeseen calamity, or to experience infinite suffering for afters.

IF the consequences of "not listening" to your god is NO BIG DEAL? Then? It really doesn't matter, and indeed-- there would be no victims.

But you are saying there ARE negative consequences for "not listening"...! Thus? VICTIMS.

An ALL POWERFUL DEITY is more than capable of being CONVINCING without ruining Free Will, or being a bully.

A fact you seem unable to comprehend... which is why I say your god is weak or willfully evil or simply negligent .

Or? Simply suffers from a strong case of nonexistence.

 

[sojourner]

Nope. Victims is absolutely correct: IF this "rejection" of your "god" causes a person to be less, or to suffer some unforeseen calamity, or to experience infinite suffering for afters.

IF the consequences of "not listening" to your god is NO BIG DEAL? Then? It really doesn't matter, and indeed-- there would be no victims

Going on the offensive before knowing your opponent isn’t wise. Where did I say that non-belief caused anyone to be less or to suffer calamity, OR experience infinite suffering? If you’d been here as long as I, you’d be well aware of my stance of God as unconditional love and the universal salvation of all humankind. There are no victims.

An ALL POWERFUL DEITY is more than capable of being CONVINCING without ruining Free Will, or being a bully.

One can convince all one can, but omnipotence does not override human sovereignty over our own choices. Omnipotence does not mean Gods going to force our eyes open. Omnipotence also does not override the dynamic of love. You apparently either missed that point or are ignoring it completely. God is Love. Love does not insist on its own way. Love is not selfish. You’re creating definitions for God that simply are unfounded theologically. IOW: a straw man.

Or? Simply suffers from a strong case of nonexistence

I never said “God exists.”

Your whole apoplectic straw man is predicated on a gross misunderstanding of the theological underpinning of my argument. It’s a perfect example of the consequences of Not. Listening.

 

[sojourner]

But you are saying there ARE negative consequences for "not listening"...! Thus? VICTIMS

No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that those who will not see or listen are missing out on some avenues for insight. It’s entirely possible that they find other avenues. It’s even possible that God is speaking to them, and they’re hearing, but recognizing it as something else.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh Ye Of Lying Disposition! What about Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged wasn't clear to you?

Your sort of Self-Righteous Judgmental <expletive> is one of MANY reasons why I am now an EX-christian!

So you can take your judgment and shove it right next to that brain you never use.

I haven't yet made a judgment either way, since you said you "truly sought" and I was curious what you meant--I mean, to be fair, we both know people who seek God in multiple different ways.

I feel like there is something wrong here if you take an inquiring question as a judgment or assessment.

I also want to remind you, respectfully, that you are misunderstanding Matthew 7 if you think it means "just don't judge anyone or anything," for example, I sometimes read the Bible book of Judges, where leaders were called by God to deliver judgments.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It’s a perfect example of the consequences of Not. Listening.

Your reply to me? (below) Perfectly fits your complaint above. Straw-man, I guess...!

Going on the offensive before knowing your opponent isn’t wise. Where did I say that non-belief caused anyone to be less or to suffer calamity, OR experience infinite suffering? If you’d been here as long as I, you’d be well aware of my stance of God as unconditional love and the universal salvation of all humankind. There are no victims.


One can convince all one can, but omnipotence does not override human sovereignty over our own choices. Omnipotence does not mean Gods going to force our eyes open. Omnipotence also does not override the dynamic of love. You apparently either missed that point or are ignoring it completely. God is Love. Love does not insist on its own way. Love is not selfish. You’re creating definitions for God that simply are unfounded theologically. IOW: a straw man.

I never said “God exists.”

Your whole apoplectic straw man is predicated on a gross misunderstanding of the theological underpinning of my argument. It’s a perfect example of the consequences of Not. Listening.

Let us deconstruct your claim that "god is love".

If there are absolutely no differences between someone who has "found god" versus someone who has not? (regardless of convincing or no)

Then it absolutely makes zero difference either way, and there is no point in even attempting to "find god" whatsoever, is there?

Why even bother with the obviously strenuous struggle.....? I must assume it's strenuous or extreme in some way, or there would be universal "finding of god" by everyone. To what end?

But nevermind that.... you claim your god is "love".

Yet, you also claim that it's something impossible for some folk to achieve-- the "finding" of your god that is...!

Once again, you are blaming the victim putting the onerous task of "finding god" onto the fallible human-- instead of directly on the Infinitely Superior Being where it belongs.

If humans were equal to this "god of love" you describe? Then you might have a case that there was no victim-blaming.

But that isn't the case is it? No, a god is infinitely superior to mere humans, so it cannot possibly be the fault of the humans for a failure here-- because an infinite god would know exactly what was needed to be convincing without becoming a bully in the process...

It's not a case of equals, or near-equals-- it's a case of limited mortals versus infinity.

And finally? It's hardly "love" if this infinitely superior being absolutely refuses to even make the effort to become convincing to the most skeptical of humans....!

That's the actions of deliberate malice-- deliberate neglect-- because it knows it is withholding proper argument!

And once again? Your god isn't about love---not even close. Your god is no better than a Deadbeat Dad who refuses to pay child support or even visit his estranged children---

--- only infinitely worse, because it's an infinite being...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying that those who will not see or listen are missing out on some avenues for insight. It’s entirely possible that they find other avenues. It’s even possible that God is speaking to them, and they’re hearing, but recognizing it as something else.

Then there truly is zero point to even try..... ! Why mess up your mind with silliness that cannot be shown to be real in the first place?

I'm at a loss why anyone would bother at all..... seriously, not being sarcastic.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I haven't yet made a judgment either way, since you said you "truly sought" and I was curious what you meant--I mean, to be fair, we both know people who seek God in multiple different ways.

I feel like there is something wrong here if you take an inquiring question as a judgment or assessment.

I also want to remind you, respectfully, that you are misunderstanding Matthew 7 if you think it means "just don't judge anyone or anything," for example, I sometimes read the Bible book of Judges, where leaders were called by God to deliver judgments.

If you were truly curious, and not attempting to be demeaning of my Life Experiences? (as has happened to me from so very many Genuine Christians™ in the past, such that it becomes a constant condemning scream on one's mind?)

You certainly could have expressed it in less inflammatory language-- your comment strongly implied that you simply dismissed my life as somehow Not Being A Real, True Christian™. Which is beyond insulting.

Expressing it as you did here, in the first place? Could certainly have gone a lot better than your original comment did-- and I'd likely not have replied as a sarcastic a**h***.

Sorry about that, but it's kind of a trigger for me, for christians to be so dismissive of ex-christians' life experiences. If that was not your intent, I do hereby apologize for jumping on your case. It's hard to get the nuances of speech from plain printing.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I haven't yet made a judgment either way, since you said you "truly sought" and I was curious what you meant--I mean, to be fair, we both know people who seek God in multiple different ways.

Assuming you are serious, a safe assumption I think (and again I am sorry I jumped on your case), I suppose I could expound a bit.

I grew up in Assemblys Of God brand. From the day I was born, I was taken to church, and taught the bible. I literally grew up reading it for myself, once I learned how (to read).

There was a point I could quote the Gospel of John, verse-by-verse.... of course, by that time, I was using Good News For Modern Man, and that was not on the Officially Approved Bible List™, and I experienced some of the first "in house" persecution by my fellow Christians...

... I got that a lot, growing up, as I was a curios kid, and would often see a Conundrum with a particular Bible Story, and ask my "teacher" about it. I was always dismissed; my questions belittled, and not uncommon, told to spend the rest of Sunday School in the hall, "thinking about what you just said".

I quickly learned that Asking Questions was Forbidden. But I didn't stop, I simply quit asking stupid people. And indeed, as I grew older and older, I began to realize that "God's Leaders" were often mind-numbingly stupid.

Indeed-- I still remember to this day, a Sermon from the Head Preacher (who ruled his church with an iron fist) that described an Astronomical Phenomena that was going to take place in the 1980s. (this would have been the very early 70s, or perhaps the late 60s-- I remember the sermon, but I don't recall the exact date, other than it was on a Sunday Main Worship). As the preacher waxed lyrical about the Impending Doom? It hit me-- he had absolutely no freaking CLUE what he was going on about! He was clueless how fricking huge the Solar System was. He had zero knowledge of how gravity works by Inverse Square-- and that the gravitational pull of a car had 1000 times the pull on his person, as the gravitational pull of, say, Saturn, and that when an Astronomer says "lined up" it's not the same thing as a dance hall coreorgrapher telling his dancers to line up...

That was such a Moment Of Realization for me-- the preacher was literally spewing lies direct from the pulpit, and god was doing damn-all to stop him-- not so much as a mild headache.... (well, *I* got one, due to the incredible level of BS coming down from that sermon-- he was preaching as if the "planetary alignment" would be causing Global Catastrophe from .... the combined pull of gravity on earth...! Now, I doubt he knew he was lying, as he was (I realized) dumber than a box of hammers, when it came to anything science-related... It was amazing he could operate a car safely...) (Yes, the planets did "line up" in the 1980s, but not like a line of bowling pins, as he preached...)

That was one of many examples that seemed to thwart my attempts to be a Good Christian, and Follow Jesus. I gave it my all-- I went to all the right camps. I prayed all the time (for a little kid, that is--still).

I had faith enough to move not only a mountain, but an entire chain....... !

But. Gradually, over a Life Time Of Me Searching? I began to realize: there simply was nobody else Out There--- and I could only wish I could have become comfortably numb to it all...

Time and time again, God let me, my family, and my friends down. Over and over. If you hit even the most stubborn, the most faithful, on the head with a Two By Four, they either Get The Message, or they become permanently brain damaged...

God simply was not there-- likely he never was; the scant few times I had thought god was there? Were easily explained as happenstance, or worse-- my wishful thoughts...

I was in my 40's before I came to realize that it was all a giant load of dingo's kidneys.

But yeah-- I tried to find god well into my 40s. The failure wasn't on my end. You cannot talk to that which simply isn't there in the first place. I rang and rang that phone-- nobody picked up. Ever.

Call me stubborn, that it took me that long-- but I had to be sure...

 

[sojourner]

Your reply to me? (below) Perfectly fits your complaint above. Straw-man, I guess...!



Let us deconstruct your claim that "god is love".

If there are absolutely no differences between someone who has "found god" versus someone who has not? (regardless of convincing or no)

Then it absolutely makes zero difference either way, and there is no point in even attempting to "find god" whatsoever, is there?

Why even bother with the obviously strenuous struggle.....? I must assume it's strenuous or extreme in some way, or there would be universal "finding of god" by everyone. To what end?

But nevermind that.... you claim your god is "love".

Yet, you also claim that it's something impossible for some folk to achieve-- the "finding" of your god that is...!

Once again, you are blaming the victim putting the onerous task of "finding god" onto the fallible human-- instead of directly on the Infinitely Superior Being where it belongs.

If humans were equal to this "god of love" you describe? Then you might have a case that there was no victim-blaming.

But that isn't the case is it? No, a god is infinitely superior to mere humans, so it cannot possibly be the fault of the humans for a failure here-- because an infinite god would know exactly what was needed to be convincing without becoming a bully in the process...

It's not a case of equals, or near-equals-- it's a case of limited mortals versus infinity.

And finally? It's hardly "love" if this infinitely superior being absolutely refuses to even make the effort to become convincing to the most skeptical of humans....!

That's the actions of deliberate malice-- deliberate neglect-- because it knows it is withholding proper argument!

And once again? Your god isn't about love---not even close. Your god is no better than a Deadbeat Dad who refuses to pay child support or even visit his estranged children---

--- only infinitely worse, because it's an infinite being...

You’re conveniently missing the whole point of the Incarnation: God giving up Divinity to become fully human — fully “one of us.” This God was not “infinite.” This God was killed in an act of state terrorism. While he was here, he called us “sisters” and “brothers.” Surely terms of equality.

Your argument fails miserably, because it neglects the whole theological premise.

And BTW, I never said that it was “impossible for some folks to achieve.”

You ask, why bother, if it makes no difference? It does make a difference, in my estimation, in the depth and meaning of One’s life to embrace the spiritual dimension of humanity — whatever mythic system one chooses.

 

[sojourner]

Then there truly is zero point to even try..... ! Why mess up your mind with silliness that cannot be shown to be real in the first place?

I'm at a loss why anyone would bother at all..... seriously, not being sarcastic.

Because it engages the intuition and the imagination. Because it engages our senses on levels beyond the five senses. Because it creates space and incentive for us to grow beyond what we now are. Because the gift is in the striving and trying, itself — not in the getting and having. The point is the striving. The point is in the stretching — in the becoming.

I’m a musician. The same thing could be said of art: why bother? Because it makes more of me when I expand my spirit through music. This isn’t “silliness.” It’s a mythic system that serves to point us to greater truths about ourselves and dimensions of the human animal that we don’t ordinarily consider on the surface of things. Religion is but one avenue in which we can plumb the depths of existence and it’s meaning for us.

 

[sojourner]

Assuming you are serious, a safe assumption I think (and again I am sorry I jumped on your case), I suppose I could expound a bit.

I grew up in Assemblys Of God brand. From the day I was born, I was taken to church, and taught the bible. I literally grew up reading it for myself, once I learned how (to read).

There was a point I could quote the Gospel of John, verse-by-verse.... of course, by that time, I was using Good News For Modern Man, and that was not on the Officially Approved Bible List™, and I experienced some of the first "in house" persecution by my fellow Christians...

... I got that a lot, growing up, as I was a curios kid, and would often see a Conundrum with a particular Bible Story, and ask my "teacher" about it. I was always dismissed; my questions belittled, and not uncommon, told to spend the rest of Sunday School in the hall, "thinking about what you just said".

I quickly learned that Asking Questions was Forbidden. But I didn't stop, I simply quit asking stupid people. And indeed, as I grew older and older, I began to realize that "God's Leaders" were often mind-numbingly stupid.

Indeed-- I still remember to this day, a Sermon from the Head Preacher (who ruled his church with an iron fist) that described an Astronomical Phenomena that was going to take place in the 1980s. (this would have been the very early 70s, or perhaps the late 60s-- I remember the sermon, but I don't recall the exact date, other than it was on a Sunday Main Worship). As the preacher waxed lyrical about the Impending Doom? It hit me-- he had absolutely no freaking CLUE what he was going on about! He was clueless how fricking huge the Solar System was. He had zero knowledge of how gravity works by Inverse Square-- and that the gravitational pull of a car had 1000 times the pull on his person, as the gravitational pull of, say, Saturn, and that when an Astronomer says "lined up" it's not the same thing as a dance hall coreorgrapher telling his dancers to line up...

That was such a Moment Of Realization for me-- the preacher was literally spewing lies direct from the pulpit, and god was doing damn-all to stop him-- not so much as a mild headache.... (well, *I* got one, due to the incredible level of BS coming down from that sermon-- he was preaching as if the "planetary alignment" would be causing Global Catastrophe from .... the combined pull of gravity on earth...! Now, I doubt he knew he was lying, as he was (I realized) dumber than a box of hammers, when it came to anything science-related... It was amazing he could operate a car safely...) (Yes, the planets did "line up" in the 1980s, but not like a line of bowling pins, as he preached...)

That was one of many examples that seemed to thwart my attempts to be a Good Christian, and Follow Jesus. I gave it my all-- I went to all the right camps. I prayed all the time (for a little kid, that is--still).

I had faith enough to move not only a mountain, but an entire chain....... !

But. Gradually, over a Life Time Of Me Searching? I began to realize: there simply was nobody else Out There--- and I could only wish I could have become comfortably numb to it all...

Time and time again, God let me, my family, and my friends down. Over and over. If you hit even the most stubborn, the most faithful, on the head with a Two By Four, they either Get The Message, or they become permanently brain damaged...

God simply was not there-- likely he never was; the scant few times I had thought god was there? Were easily explained as happenstance, or worse-- my wishful thoughts...

I was in my 40's before I came to realize that it was all a giant load of dingo's kidneys.

But yeah-- I tried to find god well into my 40s. The failure wasn't on my end. You cannot talk to that which simply isn't there in the first place. I rang and rang that phone-- nobody picked up. Ever.

Call me stubborn, that it took me that long-- but I had to be sure...

God! No wonder you’re an “unbeliever.” That sort of thing just kills you bit by bit by bit. I can assure you that that ilk is not indicative of Xy as a whole — least of all progressives like myself. No wonder you seem to have an ax to grind. I have a very good, lifelong friend whose story is like yours. FWIW, I’m sorry you went through that. There are an awful lot of folks with the same story. No wonder Xy is on the decline.

At least now you can question and wonder and doubt without being dragged over the coals. That’s good.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You’re conveniently missing the whole point of the Incarnation: God giving up Divinity to become fully human — fully “one of us.” This God was not “infinite.” This God was killed in an act of state terrorism. While he was here, he called us “sisters” and “brothers.” Surely terms of equality..

Argument not in evidence. If this god was killed? Is it still dead? If not-- there was no actual death.

And no actual sacrifice of any merit.

Your argument fails miserably, because it neglects the whole theological premise..

False. Your non-argument does not excuse an Infinite Being's utter fail to be Convincing.

In fact, it only makes it much much ... worse.

And BTW, I never said that it was “impossible for some folks to achieve.” .

You did not need to -- that's a consequence of your god's utter failure to be convincing.

You ask, why bother, if it makes no difference? It does make a difference, in my estimation, in the depth and meaning of One’s life to embrace the spiritual dimension of humanity — whatever mythic system one chooses.

Aaaaand we are back to your god deliberately, and with malice, refusing to be Godly. Refusing to do Godly Due Diligence.

A Supreme Being would know what it takes to be Convincing to a Skeptic.

IF your god exists, and IF there are Consequences (as you just state: there are).

THEN your god is Maliciously Negligent.

... but you will return to Victim Blaming. Right?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Because it engages the intuition and the imagination. Because it engages our senses on levels beyond the five senses. Because it creates space and incentive for us to grow beyond what we now are. Because the gift is in the striving and trying, itself — not in the getting and having. The point is the striving. The point is in the stretching — in the becoming.

I’m a musician. The same thing could be said of art: why bother? Because it makes more of me when I expand my spirit through music. This isn’t “silliness.” It’s a mythic system that serves to point us to greater truths about ourselves and dimensions of the human animal that we don’t ordinarily consider on the surface of things. Religion is but one avenue in which we can plumb the depths of existence and it’s meaning for us.

Well.... now you've just Moved The Goal-Posts. Again.

That's okay though-- based on just what you wrote? A person could get just as much out of striving against the general belief that Unicorns are Myth.

So, sure-- why not? Striving against can make a person better than they otherwise might have been.

Why bring in unproved supernatural woo?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God! No wonder you’re an “unbeliever.” That sort of thing just kills you bit by bit by bit. I can assure you that that ilk is not indicative of Xy as a whole — least of all progressives like myself. No wonder you seem to have an ax to grind. I have a very good, lifelong friend whose story is like yours. FWIW, I’m sorry you went through that. There are an awful lot of folks with the same story. No wonder Xy is on the decline.

At least now you can question and wonder and doubt without being dragged over the coals. That’s good.

I knew I liked you from the beginning. Your Mrs Grundy quote is one of my favorites.

I've enjoyed our written sparring, here-- in case you didn't think I was having a Good Time.



Keep on Keepin' On, my Friend. You're fun!

 

[sojourner]

Well.... now you've just Moved The Goal-Posts. Again.

That's okay though-- based on just what you wrote? A person could get just as much out of striving against the general belief that Unicorns are Myth.

So, sure-- why not? Striving against can make a person better than they otherwise might have been.

Why bring in unproved supernatural woo?

You’re right. Provided, of course, that the unicorns reflected real human issues of relationship, morality, power, and truth.

But I don’t see how any of this “moves the goal posts” — unless you had the goalposts set up on the wrong field to begin with...

 

[sojourner]

I knew I liked you from the beginning. Your Mrs Grundy quote is one of my favorites.

I've enjoyed our written sparring, here-- in case you didn't think I was having a Good Time.



Keep on Keepin' On, my Friend. You're fun!

I hope you continue your quest for truth. I’m enjoying our debating too.