Scripture Quiz

nPeace · Jun 13, 2018

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:
No was to your proposition that Jesus' had to die in spirit form. he did not. He only had to sacrifice his perfect sinless blood.

The I don't know, why? was in response to your statement: "So whereas Jesus did not have immortality before, but was like all the angels, he now is an immortal spirit - like his father - as the holy ones will be, when they receive their spirit body."

Sometimes people use immortality to mean without beginning or end, without creation. Only Jehovah God is immortal in this sense. So I don't know means I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, by immortality, and why implies it doesn't fit in harmony with scripture if the application to immortality is as such. I was hoping you would explain it rather than me trying to figure it out.

I was only using the scriptures to answer your question about what happened to the spirit body Jesus possessed before becoming human. How would you say he went from spirit to embryo?

I understand people like to put their own definition on words. Immortality only has one meaning, that I am aware of.
Sadly though, the English language is always being adjusted to accommodate every meaning or expression people fancy.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 13, 2018

nPeace said:
So whereas Jesus did not have immortality before, but was like all the angels, he now is an immortal spirit - like his father - as the holy ones will be, when they receive their spirit body.
Hebrews 1:.9; 1 Pet. 1:4; 2 Pet. 1:4

The ^ above ^ reminds me of the verse at John 5:26 because there it lets us know that God granted immortality to Jesus to have life within himself.

nPeace · Jun 13, 2018

URAVIP2ME said:
The ^ above ^ reminds me of the verse at John 5:26 because there it lets us know that God granted immortality to Jesus to have life within himself.

Thank you. The scripture is perfect.

outlawState · Jun 13, 2018

nPeace said:
Immortality only has one meaning, that I am aware of.

There are at least two very different meanings of immortality:

Conditional Immortality. This is the immortality of Adam and Eve, and of the gods of ancient Greece. The immortality of Adam and Eve was conditional on not eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The immortality of gods of ancient Greece was dependent on their eating Ambrosia, the food of the gods, and Nectar, the drink of the gods.

Unconditional immortality. This is the immortality of God (the Father) and those "one with him," although one might posit that those "one with him" have to remain one with him.

nPeace · Jun 14, 2018

outlawState said:
There are at least two very different meanings of immortality:

Conditional Immortality. This is the immortality of Adam and Eve, and of the gods of ancient Greece. The immortality of Adam and Eve was conditional on not eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The immortality of gods of ancient Greece was dependent on their eating Ambrosia, the food of the gods, and Nectar, the drink of the gods.

Unconditional immortality. This is the immortality of God (the Father) and those "one with him," although one might posit that those "one with him" have to remain one with him.

Thanks, but do you have a reference for that, because as far as I understand it, anything that can die, is not immortal.
Adam's and Eve's lives depended on God sustaining them, and he could destroy them if he willed.

Those who have immortality do not depend on any outside entity to sustain them. As was nicely referenced by URAVIP2ME, they have life within themselves.

Unlike the English, the Hebrew and Greek writers seem to be very specific in their use of words.
From a compound of a (as a negative particle) and thanatos; deathlessness -- immortality.

That's my understanding of it, at least.

outlawState · Jun 15, 2018

nPeace said:
Thanks, but do you have a reference for that, because as far as I understand it, anything that can die, is not immortal.

"Immortal" is just a word. It depends on how you define it, and often its meaning is defined contextually. So there is no point in arguing over just this word from an isolationist standpoint. Obviously the bible qualifies immortal a lot, depending on whether the context is the Father, the son, the believer or the unbeliever, or the angels.

nPeace said:
Adam's and Eve's lives depended on God sustaining them, and he could destroy them if he willed.

Everything is dependent on God's will, even the life of the son, who has life within himself. That life is the life of God the Father. I don't think it's worth arguing whether immortality exists independently of God the Father. Plainly it does not.

nPeace said:
Those who have immortality do not depend on any outside entity to sustain them. As was nicely referenced by URAVIP2ME, they have life within themselves.

Life of the son "within himself" is because the fulness of God dwells in him. So again there is a dependency on the Father. I think this is a problem with the Trinity conception. It encourages people to think that may be God the Father is redundant now that we have "God the Son." No, its quite the reverse. All eternal life depends on God the Father, which is why the Father is greater than the son.

nPeace said:
Unlike the English, the Hebrew and Greek writers seem to be very specific in their use of words.
From a compound of a (as a negative particle) and thanatos; deathlessness -- immortality.

That's my understanding of it, at least.

As I said, it is pointless hypothesizing whether immortality exists independently of God the Father. It doesn't and it cannot.

nPeace · Jun 16, 2018

outlawState said:
"Immortal" is just a word. It depends on how you define it, and often its meaning is defined contextually. So there is no point in arguing over just this word from an isolationist standpoint. Obviously the bible qualifies immortal a lot, depending on whether the context is the Father, the son, the believer or the unbeliever, or the angels.

Everything is dependent on God's will, even the life of the son, who has life within himself. That life is the life of God the Father. I don't think it's worth arguing whether immortality exists independently of God the Father. Plainly it does not.

Life of the son "within himself" is because the fulness of God dwells in him. So again there is a dependency on the Father. I think this is a problem with the Trinity conception. It encourages people to think that may be God the Father is redundant now that we have "God the Son." No, its quite the reverse. All eternal life depends on God the Father, which is why the Father is greater than the son.

As I said, it is pointless hypothesizing whether immortality exists independently of God the Father. It doesn't and it cannot.

I'm not about to argue about it either.
I'm going by the original meaning of the word immortality - which simply means cannot die, not it depends upon this or that.
The scriptures says that God cannot die - nothing can destroy him. He is indestructible. This is the life that he promised to his loyal sons - to have a body like his - indestructible - cannot be destroyed by anything.

A promise of everlasting life, does not mean immortality, it simply means you were promised that the person who has the means to destroy or take your life, will not do so.
This is different to immortality, where the person is not just given a promise of everlasting life, but is granted a body that can never die - by any means possible, which God grants.

That's my understanding - my opinion, if you will.
I do respect each person has their opinion. I respect yours.

Muffled · Jun 16, 2018

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:
I have my own interpretation but would like to hear what you all might think of the following scriptures.

Acts Of The Apostles 24:15 (NWT) and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Romans 6:7 (NWT) For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.

As for Romans I believe my version says justified but maybe there is no difference in that. The keyword is "from." I believe it basically means that the person can no longer sin after having died. I can see that as true as far as actions go but I believe the person is still capable of sinful thoughts.

Muffled · Jun 16, 2018

djhwoodwerks said:
If one will read verse 2, they will have the meaning of verse 7.

Romans 6:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

It says "who DIED to sin", past tense, not who WILL die FOR sin" future tense.

And verse 8, Romans 6:8 (ESV Strong's) 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

Verse 7 doesn't mean physical death.

I believe this verse indicates otherwise:
Rom. 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

Muffled · Jun 16, 2018

RothschildSaxeCoburgGotha said:
Two questions regarding verse 7. The wages of sin equals what? And if the wages are what they are would it be fair to have to pay more after that?

I don't believe God is limited by time and/or space to pay a man his wages.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment;

outlawState · Jun 16, 2018

nPeace said:
I'm not about to argue about it either.
I'm going by the original meaning of the word immortality - which simply means cannot die, not it depends upon this or that.

I looked it up and it says "the ability to live forever; eternal life." (Oxford English Dictionary)

It does not say "cannot die."

nPeace said:
The scriptures says that God cannot die - nothing can destroy him. He is indestructible. This is the life that he promised to his loyal sons - to have a body like his - indestructible - cannot be destroyed by anything.

He promised a spiritual body, but I'm not sure if it's like God himself. I'd doubt it actually. More akin to the angels.

nPeace said:
A promise of everlasting life, does not mean immortality, it simply means you were promised that the person who has the means to destroy or take your life, will not do so.

Not necessarily, Eternal life may involve physical death and re-birth, as in a plant that grows a seed and dies and the seed lives on. Thus humans will experience death but be re-born with a spirtual body. However I'll agree that as concerns the spirit, it involves a premise that the spirit will not die.

nPeace said:
This is different to immortality, where the person is not just given a promise of everlasting life, but is granted a body that can never die - by any means possible, which God grants.

Consider Satan. As an angel surely he had / has immortality unless he is put to death.

nPeace said:
That's my understanding - my opinion, if you will.
I do respect each person has their opinion. I respect yours.

I see your point, but I think it's wrong to be too concerned with word definitions. Most word meanings are qualified by context and application.

nPeace · Jun 16, 2018

outlawState said:
I looked it up and it says "the ability to live forever; eternal life." (Oxford English Dictionary)

It does not say "cannot die."

Why did you choose to use a modern dictionary to determine the original word meaning? Would it not be better to get the Greek meaning of a word that originated in Greek?

Definition: immortality, imperishability, freedom from death ... athanasía (from 1 /A "without" and 2288 /thánatos, "death") – properly, immortality (literally "without death, deathlessness")

aphtharsía – properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down. See 862a (aphthartos)

outlawState said:
He promised a spiritual body, but I'm not sure if it's like God himself. I'd doubt it actually. More akin to the angels.

Not necessarily, Eternal life may involve physical death and re-birth, as in a plant that grows a seed and dies and the seed lives on. Thus humans will experience death but be re-born with a spirtual body. However I'll agree that as concerns the spirit, it involves a premise that the spirit will not die.

Consider Satan. As an angel surely he had / has immortality unless he is put to death.

Yes. Also an imperishable one.
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Timothy 6
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

A body akin to the angels, would seem to me, a body that is perishable.
That the angels have immortality, I'm not sure. It would seem to me that the scriptures are helping us to appreciate that though angels do not die as mortal can, immorality is a life that is far superior - indestructible. 1 Timothy 6:16
I'm only saying how I understand it, not that I am right.

outlawState said:
I see your point, but I think it's wrong to be too concerned with word definitions. Most word meanings are qualified by context and application.

Why would you think that?
How could the correct understanding of the Hebrew and Greek writings be conveyed, if the translators did not try to grasp the true meaning of the texts? Why did you consult a dictionary if it was not to try to prove something?

The Bible in English and other spoken languages exists today by many scholars carefully trying to get the true meaning of the words and phrases, in order to convey as accurately as possible, what the writers were saying - making word definitions very important, imo.

outlawState · Jun 17, 2018

nPeace said:
Why did you choose to use a modern dictionary to determine the original word meaning? Would it not be better to get the Greek meaning of a word that originated in Greek?

Definition: immortality, imperishability, freedom from death ... athanasía (from 1 /A "without" and 2288 /thánatos, "death") – properly, immortality (literally "without death, deathlessness")

aphtharsía – properly, no-corruption (unable to experience deterioration); incorruptibility (not perishable), i.e. lacking the very capacity to decay or constitutionally break down. See 862a (aphthartos)

Nothing that says that God can't intervene and destroy the same.

nPeace said:
Yes. Also an imperishable one.
Philippians 3
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
1 Timothy 6
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

A body akin to the angels, would seem to me, a body that is perishable.

Mar 12:25
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

nPeace said:
That the angels have immortality, I'm not sure. It would seem to me that the scriptures are helping us to appreciate that though angels do not die as mortal can, immorality is a life that is far superior - indestructible. 1 Timothy 6:16
I'm only saying how I understand it, not that I am right.

All I am saying is what you missed out.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things,

All I am saying is that nothing lives without God's decree. There is no such thing as immortality construed separately from God.

nPeace said:
Why would you think that?
How could the correct understanding of the Hebrew and Greek writings be conveyed, if the translators did not try to grasp the true meaning of the texts? Why did you consult a dictionary if it was not to try to prove something?

I was pointing out that your definition of immortality was too narrow. You said "cannot die." That is not the same as saying "not liable to corruption." A thing that is immortal will not die of itself, but as with Satan, there are some things that may do by God's intervention.

nPeace said:
The Bible in English and other spoken languages exists today by many scholars carefully trying to get the true meaning of the words and phrases, in order to convey as accurately as possible, what the writers were saying - making word definitions very important, imo.

The Greek language was entirely foreign to the concept of Hebrew religion. The problem of the unqualified meaning of Greek words originating in paganism is the same as in English. We have to look beyond the definition. You cannot just impute what you want.

nPeace · Jun 17, 2018

outlawState said:
Nothing that says that God can't intervene and destroy the same.

According to this definition - that would seem to be the case. Nothing says what you are suggesting.

outlawState said:
Mar 12:25

outlawState said:
When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

That scripture is true.

outlawState said:
All I am saying is what you missed out.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things,

All I am saying is that nothing lives without God's decree. There is no such thing as immortality construed separately from God.

I was pointing out that your definition of immortality was too narrow. You said "cannot die." That is not the same as saying "not liable to corruption." A thing that is immortal will not die of itself, but as with Satan, there are some things that may do by God's intervention.

God decreed that he would grant immortality to spirit anointed ones who prove loyal.
Why do you make that statement, as though you know for sure, yet haven't shown that to be the case?

outlawState said:
The Greek language was entirely foreign to the concept of Hebrew religion. The problem of the unqualified meaning of Greek words originating in paganism is the same as in English. We have to look beyond the definition. You cannot just impute what you want.

Many of the writings after the first century were in Greek, since that was the dominant influence at the time.
Actually Matthew was probably the only book in its originality not written in Greek.
How can you look beyond the definition and not impute what you want?
I'm not doing that. I am using the definition, as it is.

outlawState · Jun 19, 2018

nPeace said:
God decreed that he would grant immortality to spirit anointed ones who prove loyal.
Why do you make that statement, as though you know for sure, yet haven't shown that to be the case?

We know that the angels have immortality, if only by inverse application of Jesus statement that the dead who are raised to eternal life are like the angels.

As for satan and his demons, Mat 25:41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons."

So "eternal fire" is a divine intervention in immortality. I think this is pretty obvious.

nPeace said:
Many of the writings after the first century were in Greek, since that was the dominant influence at the time.

But Greek was thoroughly pagan.

nPeace said:
Actually Matthew was probably the only book in its originality not written in Greek.
How can you look beyond the definition and not impute what you want?
I'm not doing that. I am using the definition, as it is.

The Greek language was not made to serve the interests of Christianity. It has to be adapted. The Greeks had no concept of immortality like YHWH, I think. With definitions it seems to me that you can define whatever you want. I am not even sure that there were any "definitions" in ancient Greece. It is why we should take our understanding of things from the Old Testament too.

nPeace · Jun 19, 2018

outlawState said:
We know that the angels have immortality, if only by inverse application of Jesus statement that the dead who are raised to eternal life are like the angels.

As for satan and his demons, Mat 25:41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons."

So "eternal fire" is a divine intervention in immortality. I think this is pretty obvious.

But Greek was thoroughly pagan.

The Greek language was not made to serve the interests of Christianity. It has to be adapted. The Greeks had no concept of immortality like YHWH, I think. With definitions it seems to me that you can define whatever you want. I am not even sure that there were any "definitions" in ancient Greece. It is why we should take our understanding of things from the Old Testament too.

What do you mean by

divine intervention in immortality

outlawState · Jun 19, 2018

nPeace said:
What do you mean by

Withdrawal or cancellation of immortality. It is an involved process, obviously, when it comes to angels, not something to be done lightly. It has its application in the annulment of the forgiveness of sins of earthlings: Mat 18:21-35.

nPeace · Jun 20, 2018

outlawState said:
Withdrawal or cancellation of immortality. It is an involved process, obviously, when it comes to angels, not something to be done lightly. It has its application in the annulment of the forgiveness of sins of earthlings: Mat 18:21-35.

Withdrawal or cancellation of immortality...

So let me see.... you see immortality as you put it before to be conditional for one

Conditional Immortality. This is the immortality of Adam and Eve, and of the gods of ancient Greece. The immortality of Adam and Eve was conditional on not eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The immortality of gods of ancient Greece was dependent on their eating Ambrosia, the food of the gods, and Nectar, the drink of the gods.

... and unconditional

Unconditional immortality. This is the immortality of God (the Father) and those "one with him," although one might posit that those "one with him" have to remain one with him.

Yet the unconditional is still conditional.
So technically, from this logic, that would make all immortality conditional... Including God's.
God's immortality would have to be conditional - be it that we don't know if there is something that can obliterate God.

If you say no, that's not the case... God's immortality is unconditional - nothing can destroy him, then I have to ask... 'What is immortality?'

Is it a state of being, or is it a statement of being?
In other words, is an immortal being materially immortal, or only given the title of immortality?
If one can be granted immortality, and then immortality be taken from them... :shrug:

How is the person immortal?

Scripture Quiz

nPeace

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URAVIP2ME

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nPeace

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outlawState

Deism is dead

nPeace

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outlawState

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nPeace

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Muffled

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Muffled

Jesus in me

outlawState

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nPeace

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outlawState

Deism is dead

nPeace

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outlawState

Deism is dead

nPeace

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outlawState

Deism is dead

nPeace

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