The space was smoke

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

At the beginning it was smoke and scientists were able to trace the formation of stars
from the remnants of the smoke.

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."(41:11)

It looks like smoke, the same view of the smoke of cigarette, those who tried to refute the verse
were focusing on the word smoke to be wrong, close but not scientifically the right word.

Now if the quran was made up then why the author has to tell that the space was smoke at the
beginning of the creation, what benefit he gets from describing how it looks like at the beginning.

Moreover it describes that it's planned to be so and not just happened to be so with no choice(unwillingly).

Just your thoughts, why the prophet needed to make up such a verse if he was making it from his imaginations?

Debater Slayer · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
At the beginning it was smoke and scientists were able to trace the formation of stars
from the remnants of the smoke.

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."(41:11)

It looks like smoke, the same view of the smoke of cigarette, those who tried to refute the verse
were focusing on the word smoke to be wrong, close but not scientifically the right word.

Now if the quran was made up then why the author has to tell that the space was smoke at the
beginning of the creation, what benefit he gets from describing how it looks like at the beginning.

Moreover it describes that it's planned to be so and not just happened to be so with no choice(unwillingly).

Just your thoughts, why the prophet needed to make up such a verse if he was making it from his imaginations?

The word "smoke" itself could be understood in enough different ways that saying the verse provides any special scientific insight strikes me as overreaching and constructing an argument around a manifestation of the Forer effect.

Furthermore, on a more tangential note, I find it rather inconsistent that many of the same people who claim science confirms the Qur'an's supposedly divine origin also readily dismiss scientific facts when said facts contradict their religious beliefs. Ask yourself how many people who tout the Qur'an's "scientific miracles" deny--out of religious conviction--the theory of evolution or the scientific evidence that homosexuality is a natural, healthy orientation and it may become clear that much of the "scientific miracles" rhetoric is a mere exercise in ad hoc demagoguery.

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

Debater Slayer said:
The word "smoke" itself could be understood in enough different ways that saying the verse provides any special scientific insight strikes me as overreaching and constructing an argument around a manifestation of the Forer effect.

The word smoke is mentioned as describing how the space looks like at the time of creation,
how that is forer effect?

Debater Slayer said:
Furthermore, on a more tangential note, I find it rather inconsistent that many of the same people who claim science confirms the Qur'an's supposedly divine origin also readily dismiss scientific facts when said facts contradict their religious beliefs. Ask yourself how many people who tout the Qur'an's "scientific miracles" deny--out of religious conviction--the theory of evolution or the scientific evidence that homosexuality is a natural, healthy orientation and it may become clear that much of the "scientific miracles" rhetoric is a mere exercise in ad hoc demagoguery.

People's opinions is a thing and the quran is one other thing

Native · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
At the beginning it was smoke and scientists were able to trace the formation of stars
from the remnants of the smoke.

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."(41:11)

It looks like smoke, the same view of the smoke of cigarette, those who tried to refute the verse
were focusing on the word smoke to be wrong, close but not scientifically the right word.

Now if the quran was made up then why the author has to tell that the space was smoke at the
beginning of the creation, what benefit he gets from describing how it looks like at the beginning.

Moreover it describes that it's planned to be so and not just happened to be so with no choice(unwillingly).

Just your thoughts, why the prophet needed to make up such a verse if he was making it from his imaginations?

1) In my opinion, the numerous ancient cultural tellings about the creation, don´t regards the entire Universe, but "just" our Milky Way.
2) Many of these cultural creation stories mentions "heavenly clouds" or "cosmic rivers of dust" which comes together in the cosmic center of creation i.e. the Milky Way center.
3) In these stories the concept of "beginning" just regards the preconditions and factual creation of the Milky Way. It just describes how the Milky Way galaxy is created.
4) The interesting part for me is that this telling is very consistent in cultures all over the world and this just confirms that the creation can be perceived very similar by all people, both as a physical and spiritual observation.

Terrywoodenpic · Apr 28, 2018

What might be seen as looking like smoke from earth, would be everything from minute particles to earth sized chunks or larger bodies, close up.
It was a considerable leap, to assume that such apparent wisps of smoke like areas in the heavens, could condense into worlds , suns and galaxies. or that taking this to extreme would result in Black holes. Nor had they any concept of Dark matter.
Though at that time, no one had any concept of the size of the of the stars, or that there were other planets.

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

Native said:
1) In my opinion, the numerous ancient cultural tellings about the creation, don´t regards the entire Universe, but "just" our Milky Way.
2) Many of these cultural creation stories mentions "heavenly clouds" or "cosmic rivers of dust" which comes together in the cosmic center of creation i.e. the Milky Way center.
3) In these stories the concept of "beginning" just regards the preconditions and factual creation of the Milky Way. It just describes how the Milky Way galaxy is created.
4) The interesting part for me is that this telling is very consistent in cultures all over the world and this just confirms that the creation can be perceived very similar by all people, both as a physical and spiritual observation.

Which stories from ancient times?

Native · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
Which stories from ancient times?

These stories can be found in all cultures all over the world. Read here - List of creation myths - Wikipedia

Native · Apr 28, 2018

Terrywoodenpic said:
What might be seen as looking like smoke from earth, . . .

Even the Milky Way contours was described by our ancestors as "a white smoke in the Sky" or as "a River in the Sky".

Terrywoodenpic said:
Though at that time, no one had any concept of the size of the of the stars, or that there were other planets.

No not besides the very physical size of light. But they had of course knowledge of the nearest planets which was called "wandering stars" by our ancestors.

shunyadragon · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
Which stories from ancient times?

In this case what is described to appear as 'smoke' is a layman's adjective and has nothing to do with the scientific reality of the cosmos.

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

Native said:
These stories can be found in all cultures all over the world. Read here - List of creation myths - Wikipedia

And which story says it was state of smoke at the beginning of the creation, your link doesn't
provide such information?

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

shunyadragon said:
In this case what is described to appear as 'smoke' is a layman's adjective and has nothing to do with the scientific reality of the cosmos.

As you see from the picture, it looks like a smoke, exactly similar to the smoke of cigarette,
which word you think was better to use than smoke to describe the view ?

shunyadragon · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
As you see from the picture, it looks like a smoke, exactly similar to the smoke of cigarette,
which word you think was better to use than smoke to describe the view ?

'Looks like' smoke, remains a layman's descriptive version.

In astronomy, the interstellar medium (ISM) is the matter and radiation that exists in the space between the star systems in a galaxy. This matter includes gas in ionic, atomic, and molecular form, as well as dust and cosmic rays. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space.

Interstellar medium - Wikipedia
Interstellar medium - Wikipedia

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

shunyadragon said:
'Looks like' smoke, remains a layman's descriptive version.

In astronomy, the interstellar medium (ISM) is the matter and radiation that exists in the space between the star systems in a galaxy. This matter includes gas in ionic, atomic, and molecular form, as well as dust and cosmic rays. It fills interstellar space and blends smoothly into the surrounding intergalactic space.

Interstellar medium - Wikipedia
Interstellar medium - Wikipedia

I said which word to describe the view as you see it?
Which better word than smoke to describe the scene?

shunyadragon · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
I said which word to describe the view as you see it?
Which better word than smoke to describe the scene?

Interstellar Medium (ISM) or less accurate 'Interstellar gases.' They do not contain anything comparable to smoke as takes place on earth.

A religious reference with an agenda is not a good reference to anything to do with science.

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Interstellar Medium (ISM) or less accurate 'Interstellar gases.' They do not contain anything comparable to smoke as takes place on earth.

A religious reference with an agenda is not a good reference to anything to do with science.

You think the scene better looks like gases?
Do you think the word Gases was used before 1500 years ago?

shunyadragon · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
You think the scene better looks like gases?
Do you think the word Gases was used before 1500 years ago?

Interstellar gases (ISM) are not what is visible as smoke is visible. What we see is the reflected light. From the ISM.

They were not even visible 1500 years ago.

Again . . . a religious reference trying to justify an agenda is not a reliable reference for science.

WalterTrull · Apr 28, 2018

My hunch is that somewhere a long time ago in a Galaxy far, far away, there was tokin' goin' on. Can you imagine the size or number of those doobies? Shazaam!! (or maybe the Sheldonesque - Bazinga)

FearGod · Apr 28, 2018

shunyadragon said:
Interstellar gases (ISM) are not what is visible as smoke is visible. What we see is the reflected light. From the ISM.

They were not even visible 1500 years ago.

Again . . . a religious reference trying to justify an agenda is not a reliable reference for science.

It's about the case at the beginning of the creation and not 1500 years ago,
I said the word Gases wasn't used during that era, but the scene is look like smoke.

Yes of course what we see is the reflected light and this how we see all things around us.

David T · Apr 28, 2018

FearGod said:
At the beginning it was smoke and scientists were able to trace the formation of stars
from the remnants of the smoke.

Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."(41:11)

It looks like smoke, the same view of the smoke of cigarette, those who tried to refute the verse
were focusing on the word smoke to be wrong, close but not scientifically the right word.

Now if the quran was made up then why the author has to tell that the space was smoke at the
beginning of the creation, what benefit he gets from describing how it looks like at the beginning.

Moreover it describes that it's planned to be so and not just happened to be so with no choice(unwillingly).

Just your thoughts, why the prophet needed to make up such a verse if he was making it from his imaginations?

Quran abuse.

Onyx · Apr 28, 2018

Perhaps the use of the term "smoke" was used for lack of a better one, to describe a universe which remained formless until the supposed "Allah" came roaring in to organize the whole mess?

The book of Genesis tells a similar tale, and is much older than anything the Islamists ever wrote:

Genesis 1:9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

Let's compare now:

Koran 41:11: Then He turned to the heaven while it was all smoke. He said to the heaven and the earth: “Come (into being), willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “Here we come (into being) in willing obeisance.

Is there much difference in the basic premise? Which verse came first?

Look, the human brain has something on the order of 100 billion neurons, many of which are potentially capable of making 10,000 interconnects to others. The voltages are rather high, in the millivolts, while most bioelectricity occurs in the microvolt range. Lots of activity going on in that skull.

Is is remotely possible that Muhammad's "smoke" hypothesis is the result of this advanced hardware, and thus "came into being" through the process of natural selection instead of some secret wisdom handed down by a sky-daddy?

Religious texts should be used for inspiration, mixing them with science is always a failure. And I think the whole Muhammad-as-prophet thing is a load of crap, and sorry for being snarky but get with the times people.

The space was smoke

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