Anyone Care to Explain Jesus' Mistake?

In another post there was mention of Matthew 13:31-32 where Jesus speaks to the multitudes saying,

which reminded me of this little fact.


CONCLUSION: The mustard seed is not "the smallest of all seeds."

As for an explanation, I'm talking about a rational explanation here, not some rubbish that Jesus was only talking about seeds from plants in the area, or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

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Jeebers! You sure nailed him, Skwim! I guess we can all dismiss Christianity now as a miserably failed religion. Who would have thought it would fall apart because of a mustard seed?

Skwim said:

As for an explanation, I'm talking about a rational explanation here, not some rubbish that Jesus was only talking about seeds from plants in the area, or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

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In other words, you don't want an explanation. You just want to be confined in your opinions.

Skwim said:

I'm talking about a rational explanation here, not some rubbish that Jesus was only talking about seeds from plants in the area, or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

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So it is not 'rational' to consider a work of rhetoric as a work of rhetoric? It's 'rubbish' to even acknowledge the idea that it can be helpful to consider the conventions of a genre when establishing meaning?

Skwim said:

CONCLUSION: The mustard seed is not "the smallest of all seeds."

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Neither is the Mustard Plant a tree, which birds can rest in.

In my opinion.

It doesn't actually matter if he was talking about a mustard seed or a coconut. Heaven is like a small seed that you plant and grows. It all happens internally and has nothing to do with sizes of seeds. Either you understand or you don't.

He was hungry, maybey? I mean, there was that time he cursed a fig tree and whipped people because he was hangry. (psa, I've had a **** night and a bit of whiskey lol)

Skwim said:

or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.
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Yes, he was wrong. I have never seen birds resting on the branches of faith before, have you? What does a faith tree look like anyway? You would think with all those wood branches sticking out of people's heads, someone would have noticed by now! This "statement of fact" was clearly a technical error worth noting! It calls into doubt everything he taught, such as the commandments to love.

Jesus' mistake actually, was that he didn't anticipate literalists in the 21st century with no imagination. He should have be precise in scientific language if he had any hope to speak to modern atheists and convince them of magical thinking, which is the foundation of spiritual awakening attested to be the great sages and masters of all ages. Magical scientific knowledge is foundational to spiritual authority in all the great traditions. So some appear to believe anyway.

Skwim said:

In another post there was mention of Matthew 13:31-32 where Jesus speaks to the multitudes saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."
​

which reminded me of this little fact.

SEEDS​

comparative sizes​

(FYI, Wolffia is a genus of 9 to 11 species which include the smallest flowering plants on Earth.
Commonly called watermeal or duckweed, these aquatic plants resemble specks of cornmeal
floating on the water.)​

CONCLUSION: The mustard seed is not "the smallest of all seeds."

As for an explanation, I'm talking about a rational explanation here, not some rubbish that Jesus was only talking about seeds from plants in the area, or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

.

Click to expand...

I can't decide if you are being serious or what with some off these threads. Can you clarify my confusion?

Skwim said:

In another post there was mention of Matthew 13:31-32 where Jesus speaks to the multitudes saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches."
​

which reminded me of this little fact.

SEEDS​

comparative sizes​

(FYI, Wolffia is a genus of 9 to 11 species which include the smallest flowering plants on Earth.
Commonly called watermeal or duckweed, these aquatic plants resemble specks of cornmeal
floating on the water.)​

CONCLUSION: The mustard seed is not "the smallest of all seeds."

As for an explanation, I'm talking about a rational explanation here, not some rubbish that Jesus was only talking about seeds from plants in the area, or that because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

.

Click to expand...

(sigh)

Once again, it was a spiritual message. Not a physical one. I gave you the answer where Jesus uses a "grain of wheat" for the same message. You see "physical" (seeds) and not spiritual knowledge (gnosis).

The last line of the verse from Secret John says:

"unless you receive it through knowledge, you will not be able to find it"- Secret John

CONCLUSION: Words aren't knowledge.

Sunstone said:

Jeebers! You sure nailed him, Skwim! I guess we can all dismiss Christianity now as a miserably failed religion. Who would have thought it would fall apart because of a mustard seed?

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Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. But if you think Christianity stands or falls on a mustard seed, so be it.

Musing Bassist said:

In other words, you don't want an explanation. You just want to be confined in your opinions.

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Did I take your explanation away from you? Guess so. Sorry (only kind of)

Augustus said:

So it is not 'rational' to consider a work of rhetoric as a work of rhetoric?

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"Rhetoric?" Might want to look its meaning.

It's 'rubbish' to even acknowledge the idea that it can be helpful to consider the conventions of a genre when establishing meaning?

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Not sure at all what you're trying to say here, but taking a stab at it I'll say; If one is going to make a comparison/analogy with something existing in reality then the thing being compared to has to have some basis in fact

wizanda said:

Neither is the Mustard Plant a tree, which birds can rest in.
In my opinion.

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I think it amounts to more than an opinion.
The mustard seeds in question come from the plants, sometimes bushes, of the Brassicaceae family, whereas the mustard tree is a different plant belonging to a different family: Salvadoraceae

Jumi said:

It doesn't actually matter if he was talking about a mustard seed or a coconut. Heaven is like a small seed that you plant and grows. It all happens internally and has nothing to do with sizes of seeds. Either you understand or you don't.

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In other words, it doesn't matter that Jesus was in error---all-knowing gods are allowed such gaffs---as long as what he says is something you can hang your hat on. Gottcha.

Windwalker said:

Yes, he was wrong. I have never seen birds resting on the branches of faith before, have you?

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Why would you suppose anyone has?

George-ananda said:

I can't decide if you are being serious or what with some off these threads. Can you clarify my confusion?

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Certainly. I'm serious. Presuming the scriptures are divinely inspired, god used those words and terms that best gets his message across. If some other word or term would have better done the job he would have used it. AND assuming that god is all-knowing there is no reason to suspect he mistakenly used the wrong words or terms. Therefore, when Jesus says "Though it is the smallest of all seeds,. . . . " That's what he means: Of all the seeds in the world that of the mustard plant is the smallest. HOWEVER! we know this isn't true. Jesus made a mistake in saying so. So my question is, Anyone care to explain this mistake? Could it be that god was wrong in putting these words in Jesus' mouth as he inspired the writers of the Matthew and Mark to write this verse? Or did Jesus actually utter these erroneous words?

Phantasman said:

(sigh)
Once again, it was a spiritual message. Not a physical one. I gave you the answer where Jesus uses a "grain of wheat" for the same message. You see "physical" (seeds) and not spiritual knowledge (gnosis).

Click to expand...

As I told Augustus, "If one is going to make a comparison/analogy with something existing in reality then the thing being compared to has to have some basis in fact."

CONCLUSION: Words aren't knowledge.

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No they aren't, but they can express knowledge, which in this case was erroneous.

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Skwim said:

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. But if you think Christianity stands or falls on a mustard seed, so be it.



Sorry, did I take your explanation away from you? Guess so.



"Rhetoric?" Might want to look its meaning.


Not sure at all what you're trying to say here, but taking a stab at it I'll say; If one is going to make a comparison/analogy with something existing in reality then the thing being compared to has to have some basis in fact



I think it amounts to more than an opinion.
The mustard seeds in question come from the plants, sometimes bushes, of the Brassicaceae family, whereas the mustard tree is a different plant belonging to a different family: Salvadoraceae



In other words, it doesn't matter that Jesus was in error---all-knowing gods are allowed such gaffs---as long as what he says is something you can hang your hat on. Gottcha.



Why would you suppose anyone has?



Certainly. I'm serious. Presuming the scriptures are divinely inspired, god used those words and terms that best gets his message across. If some other word or term would have better done the job he would have used it. AND assuming that god is all-knowing there is no reason to suspect he mistakenly used the wrong words or terms. Therefore, when Jesus says "Though it is the smallest of all seeds,. . . . " That's what he means: Of all the seeds in the world that of the mustard plant is the smallest. HOWEVER! we know this isn't true. Jesus made a mistake in saying so. So my question is, Anyone care to explain this mistake? Could it be that god was wrong in putting these words in Jesus' mouth as he inspired the writers of the Matthew and Mark to write this verse? Or did Jesus actually utter these mistaken words?



As I told Augustus, "If one is going to make a comparison/analogy with something existing in reality then the thing being compared to has to have some basis in fact."


No they aren't, but they can express knowledge, which in this case was erroneous.

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Faith isn't based on facts. Is it a fact that a car coming towards you on a two lane highway isn't going to hit you head on? You have faith it isn't, so you don't slow down. It becomes a fact after it passes.

It's all based on perception. What the mind perceives.

Skwim said:

In other words, it doesn't matter that Jesus was in error---all-knowing gods are allowed such gaffs---as long as what he says is something you can hang your hat on. Gottcha

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Nothing like that, of course, your conclusions are yours to own.

I didn't say Jesus was an all-knowing god or any god actually. What he said makes sense, not because it was in the Bible quoted as something Jesus said.

It's not a gaffe, you just lack the ability to go beyond the literal. I wonder if you've ever read a poem? Ever heard of someone saying "walking a mile in someone's shoes"? And if you did... was it literal?

Phantasman said:

Faith isn't based on facts. Is it a fact that a car coming towards you on a two lane highway isn't going to hit you head on? You have faith it isn't, so you don't slow down. It becomes a fact after it passes.
It's all based on perception. What the mind perceives.

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Totally irrelevant, and I believe you know it.

Jumi said:

I didn't say Jesus was an all-knowing god or any god actually. What he said makes sense, not because it was in the Bible quoted as something Jesus said.

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Fine, you don't go along with the vast majority of Christians; however, the premise of my OP is what the vast majority of Christians do believe. So in as much as you may not share these beliefs your remarks here are irrelevant.

It's not a gaffe, you just lack the ability to go beyond the literal. I wonder if you've ever read a poem? Ever heard of someone saying "walking a mile in someone's shoes"? And if you did... was it literal?

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And, you obviously don't understand the concept of a comparison or an analogy.


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Skwim said:

"Rhetoric?" Might want to look its meaning.

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Alternatively, seeing as you don't appear to understand the concept well enough to realise I used it correctly...

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion. In the Western world, its practice is rooted in Greece and Rome where the ability to speak well was essential to political life and perpetuating the power of the upper class. Rhetoric provided the content of secondary and tertiary education as it prepared the sons of the wealthy to take their places in the judicial and political system. Rhetoric was carefully systematized and influenced both oral and written speech. Its use is evident in the New Testament at every turn, including the Gospel writers’ development of Jesus’ sayings into more elaborate pronouncement stories...

Augustus said:

Alternatively, seeing as you don't appear to understand the concept well enough to realise I used it correctly...

Rhetoric is the art of persuasion. In the Western world, its practice is rooted in Greece and Rome where the ability to speak well was essential to political life and perpetuating the power of the upper class. Rhetoric provided the content of secondary and tertiary education as it prepared the sons of the wealthy to take their places in the judicial and political system. Rhetoric was carefully systematized and influenced both oral and written speech. Its use is evident in the New Testament at every turn, including the Gospel writers’ development of Jesus’ sayings into more elaborate pronouncement stories...

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Here, using the definition above and substituting in your remark may help.

we have

The answer, obviously, is YES. It is 'rational' to consider an attempt of persuasion as an attempt of persuasion, but so what. Is that what you wanted to convey, that A = A? If so, fine; although, it's a rather meaningless point, which is why I wondered if you knew what the word meant.

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Skwim said:

it's a rather meaningless point

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Skwim said:

not some rubbish that... because he was speaking in a proverbial/parable style he wasn't making a statement of fact.

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Augustus said:

it can be helpful to consider the conventions of a genre when establishing meaning

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Have another go...

Skwim said:

Fine, you don't go along with the vast majority of Christians; however, the premise of my OP is what the vast majority of Christians do believe. So in as much as you may not share these beliefs your remarks here are irrelevant.

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By vast majority of Christians you mean fundamentalists of your country(probably a minority?). If you asked the Christians this question anywhere near where I live in Europe they'd laugh you out of the room... I'm not even Christian and I can tell you that the vast majority is exaggerated.

Skwim said:

Totally irrelevant, and I believe you know it.



Fine, you don't go along with the vast majority of Christians; however, the premise of my OP is what the vast majority of Christians do believe. So in as much as you may not share these beliefs your remarks here are irrelevant.


And, you obviously don't understand the concept of a comparison or an analogy.


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What's irrelevant? My explanation of faith of your acceptance of it? Faith is a belief of things unseen. Unknown. But a path leads to their knowing. Just like the car. Is everything to you based on facts? Nothing more than what you see and understand? Does Proxima Centauri exist? Have you seen it? Touched it? Smelled it? Someone told you it existed and you follow them. You have no facts. Just speculation. How about aliens? Sasquatch?

Just because you have no facts on spirituality doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sometimes unexplained occurrences point to spiritual existence. You just see it as luck, or coincidence. You just cannot explain what your don't know, calling it a different name, that still are not "fact"ual.

Perception.

Skwim said:

AND assuming that god is all-knowing there is no reason to suspect he mistakenly used the wrong words or terms. Therefore, when Jesus says "Though it is the smallest of all seeds,. . . . " That's what he means: Of all the seeds in the world that of the mustard plant is the smallest. HOWEVER! we know this isn't true.

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So according to you, God should look like your idea of a magical genie and Jesus should have magical knowledge of science, and not speak in metaphors because God needs to be precise scientifically in order for you to believe in God. I see......