To What Degree Has Scientific Knowledge Pulled Mankind Away From Religion?

Subduction Zone said:

I have severe doubts about these so called prophesies. If they are not clearly laid out then they are not prophesy. For example, Nostradamus made very vague general prophesies with poetic language. As a result many of his prophecies have "come true" several times. Why don't you bring them up one at a time as originally written down with translation into English only. A Gish Gallop is often used to disguise the fact that a person has nothing.

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I also have a lot of problems, especially with lists of 'prophesies' like this. I wonder how much picking and choosing there has been, how much 'massaging' the message there has been to fit facts after the facts, and how much was actually in the original statements by the 'prophet'.

I'd like to see a prophesy as specific as, say, a prediction of the next eclipse. How about a specific time? Specific places? maybe even specific people? Something not obvious to those at the time, or at least not one of the many opinions current at the time?

Polymath257 said:

I also have a lot of problems, especially with lists of 'prophesies' like this. I wonder how much picking and choosing there has been, how much 'massaging' the message there has been to fit facts after the facts, and how much was actually in the original statements by the 'prophet'.

I'd like to see a prophesy as specific as, say, a prediction of the next eclipse. How about a specific time? Specific places? maybe even specific people? Something not obvious to those at the time, or at least not one of the many opinions current at the time?

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Here is what I believe is a good working definition of what can be called high quality prophecy:

[a] High quality prophecy needs to be specific, detailed and unambiguous. Optimally, the time and place are specified.

It also needs to prophecy something unexpected, unlikely or unique - something that was not self-fulfilling and could not have been contrived or easily guessed.

[c] High quality prophecy must be accurate and unaccompanied by failed prophecies

[d] The prophecies must be verified that they came before the event predicted, and that they were fulfilled completely.

I like to offer a few biblical prophecies as examples. We are told that the recreation of the state of Israel in 1948 was prophecied, a great example of a self-fulfilling prophesy.

There is also a meme showing how we can calculate the year 1948 using scripture: Mathematical Bible Prophecy . That's kind of a fun read.

Of course, this was numerological exercise was contrived after the fact, when the year was known, and involves making some bizarre assumptions, such as using a 360 day year, apparently because the ancient Hebrews are said to have done so with their calendar, yet coming up with a Gregorian calendar year rather than a Hebrew date. With a high quality prophecy, the year is known in advance.

Also, the Bible is so full of failed prophecies that getting something right would not be convincing for the Bible even if it were for a single prophet. It would be a variation of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy, defined as "an informal fallacy which is committed when differences in data are ignored, but similarities are stressed. From this reasoning, a false conclusion is inferred."

We see this come up when the believer points out that the Bible correctly identified that the universe had a beginning - not exactly a prophecy since it refers to the past, but knowledge that might seem as unexpected as a high quality prophecy.

What's overlooked is that if we make a list of the claims in the Genesis creation story and another of the scientific account of the history of the universe, there is almost no overlap. It's pretty much limited to the universe having a beginning and trivial items such as the beasts appearing on the planet before man, but overlooks essentially the entire scientific list such as symmetry breaking, inflation, primordial nucleosynthesis, the decoupling of the cosmic microwave background with the universe going dark followed eventually by first starlight and the formation of galaxies and stars, earth and sun following the inception of the universe by some 9 billion years, man appearing hundreds of millions of years after the first terrestrial animal life, etc..

What's also overlooked is that every other creation myth includes a first moment for the world.

Then there are the vague scriptures that are claimed to be foreknowledge of future scientific achievements such as this prophecy of electronic telecommunication:

"Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?" - Job 38:35

Contrast that with a bona fide scientific prophecy, such as that of the Higgs boson, which predicted something previously unexpected, and in great detail (mass, charge, spin, parity)

Sapiens said:

I am a scientist, my parents were scientists, my son is a scientist, not one of us have meet this "loud minority." Perhaps you might be so kind as to identify some few of their number and explain how they have over the last three generations, managed to "force" all of us to think their way, in spite of our own best judgements?

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You act like Charles Darwin never wrote about natural selection. What about Voltaire? You act like he never had any sway over what people thought... Like, all of the enlightenment thinkers. It's obvious to me when I look at history that there's an attack on faith.

In that case why don't you try talking about God around your coworkers and ask them why they don't bat an eye to deny any and every possibility that there's a God.

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that you are a part of the scientific community that wants to further the agenda.

Skwim said:

Other than the fact that science has increasingly provided competing interests with which people further divide their time, thus cutting into time and attention for religious considerations and pursuits, have the findings of science themselves pulled mankind away from religion?

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I don't think science has and I'm not sure that is it's purpose or aim.

RedDragon94 said:

You act like Charles Darwin never wrote about natural selection. What about Voltaire? You act like he never had any sway over what people thought... Like, all of the enlightenment thinkers. It's obvious to me when I look at history that there's an attack on faith.

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How did their writing "force" anything, unless you count being correct as "forcing", that is a strange new definition of the word.

In that case why don't you try talking about God around your coworkers and ask them why they don't bat an eye to deny any and every possibility that there's a God.

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that you are a part of the scientific community that wants to further the agenda.

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What place does God have in the laboratory? I have yet to see any scientist deny the possibility of a god. Many are atheists, but that only means a lack of belief. If there was valid evidence for a god they would quickly change their minds. Why would anyone bring up a deity that had nothing to do with the job at hand?

Subduction Zone said:

How did their writing "force" anything, unless you count being correct as "forcing", that is a strange new definition of the word.

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To me they wanted people to not think for themselves and wanted to think for people. The attitude is prevalent today.

Subduction Zone said:

What place does God have in the laboratory? I have yet to see any scientist deny the possibility of a god. Many are atheists, but that only means a lack of belief. If there was valid evidence for a god they would quickly change their minds. Why would anyone bring up a deity that had nothing to do with the job at hand?

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No one will give credit to the designer. That is all. They don't have to try to prove or disprove God. How does God even come up to evolutionists and scientists if he's not even an afterthought. They have an agenda.

RedDragon94 said:

To me they wanted people to not think for themselves and wanted to think for people. The attitude is prevalent today.

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That is a rather odd conclusion. What do you base it upon? And when it comes to Darwin do you not realize that the reason his work is so well accepted is because that it has been tested many thousands if not millions of times? His general work has been confirmed so many times that evolution is regarded as a fact in the world of science. Not because they want to believe, but due to the massive evidence it is the only rational behavior to take.

No one will give credit to the designer. That is all. They don't have to try to prove or disprove God. How does God even come up to evolutionists and scientists if he's not even an afterthought. They have an agenda.

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What designer? If you want to claim that there is a designer the burden of proof is on you or others that make that claim. That there is no evidence for a designer can be largely blamed on creationists. They can't seem to find any evidence for a designer.

And the only "agenda" that scientists have is an accurate explanation of what we observe in nature.

Subduction Zone said:

That is a rather odd conclusion. What do you base it upon? And when it comes to Darwin do you not realize that the reason his work is so well accepted is because that it has been tested many thousands if not millions of times? His general work has been confirmed so many times that evolution is regarded as a fact in the world of science. Not because they want to believe, but due to the massive evidence it is the only rational behavior to take.


What designer? If you want to claim that there is a designer the burden of proof is on you or others that make that claim. That there is no evidence for a designer can be largely blamed on creationists. They can't seem to find any evidence for a designer.

And the only "agenda" that scientists have is an accurate explanation of what we observe in nature.

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I don't have time for this.

RedDragon94 said:

I don't have time for this.

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You need to put more thought into your posts. When you draw poor conclusions or cannot support your claims it is not the fault of the person that points out those flaws in your posts. This forum offers you a chance to more fully flesh out your arguments. Right now you are faring poorly because of those flaws.

Subduction Zone said:

I have severe doubts about these so called prophesies. If they are not clearly laid out then they are not prophesy. For example, Nostradamus made very vague general prophesies with poetic language. As a result many of his prophecies have "come true" several times. Why don't you bring them up one at a time as originally written down with translation into English only. A Gish Gallop is often used to disguise the fact that a person has nothing.

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As I have told the poster I was talking to about prophesies, these are not the *proof* that a Prophet was a Prophet. Indeed, predictions they made are not what the Prophets *claim* as proof of their Prophethood.

Regarding distinguishing a true Prophet from a false prophet, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Baha'u'llah said something similar about how we could know if He was a true Prophet:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Trailblazer said:

As I have told the poster I was talking to about prophesies, these are not the *proof* that a Prophet was a Prophet. Indeed, predictions they made are not what the Prophets *claim* as proof of their Prophethood.

Regarding distinguishing a true Prophet from a false prophet, Jesus said:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: fruit Meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Baha'u'llah said something similar about how we could know if He was a true Prophet:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

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So then no valid prophesies.

Polymath257 said:

OK, so God does not exist. Seems simple enough to me.

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I gave you options and you picked one. Gotta love you atheists. It is the believers that are difficult to talk to because they believe God exists and they all have different conceptions about God (gods)...

It sure is a lot easier to be an atheist... wish I could be one.

Polymath257 said:

And, even if God does not exist, extraordinary people will occasionally appear and will be followed. That in no way shows a God exists. So, your 'messengers' have another explanation: they are humans who get followers. Nothing surprising about that. Extraordinary people show up every so often.
So, your primary evidence for the existence of God isn't really evidence for the existence of God. It is just evidence for extraordinary humans, but humans none-the-less.

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The only way to know if it is a or b is to check em' out.

Polymath257 said:

I've considered the possibility of the existence of God and found nothing that would change how I act.

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How can you know that unless you know what God said about how you should act?

If God exists and He is a deist God, no, it would not change how you act, because there would be no way for you to know how God wants you to act...

But if God revealed info about how you should act, then it might make a big difference if you knew what that info was.

Polymath257 said:

What @It Aint Necessarily So said was that a *competent* creator would create things that fulfill his purposes for them. So, if we are not fulfilling our purposes, then the creator is incompetent.

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But if you do not read the instruction manual on how to fulfill your purpose, how do you think you can know how to fulfill your purpose? You cannot blame the creator for failing to read His instructions.

Polymath257 said:

What @It Aint Necessarily SoBut I go in a different direction: why should I care what purpose God has set for me? his concerns are not mine. If his purposes for me aligns with what I want, that would be good. But if they do not, then why should I follow the goals of another? Is being more powerful sufficient reason to dictate what I should do?

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They are not God's concerns for Himself; they are God's concerns for us. God is self-subsisting and self-sufficient, above the need for any of His creatures. We need God, God does not need us.

God is All-Knowing and All-Wise so God knows what is *best* for you. What you *want* might not be what is best for you. Did you ever want to eat all the cookies in the cookie jar when you were a kid?

Being All-Powerful gives God the right to dictate what we should do but God gives us a choice as to whether we do it or not.

If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise that is a sufficient reason to do what God dictates. ,

Polymath257 said:

Funny that existence and non-existence of God seem to have exactly the same evidence.

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Nope, there is a lot more evidence for existence, albeit no proof...

Subduction Zone said:

So then no valid prophesies.

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That is not what I said... I said they are not the best proof.

If you are interested you can check out some of these predictions Baha'u'llah made: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Trailblazer said:

That is not what I said... I said they are not the best proof.

If you are interested you can check out some of these predictions Baha'u'llah made: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

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Nah, not doing your homework for you. If you can't show real prophesies then regardless of "his fruits" he is a false prophet.

Subduction Zone said:

Nah, not doing your homework for you. If you can't show real prophesies then regardless of "his fruits" he is a false prophet.

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That is not my homework. A teacher assigns homework for the student. A teacher does not read the book for the student.

I already did my homework decades ago when I read the books so I already know who Baha'u'llah was.

Aw, what the heck... Here they are, but if you want to know how they were fulfilled you will have to refer to the book, as I cannot post the entire book on a forum:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

From: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Buddha Dharma said:

Skwim said:

have the findings of science themselves pulled mankind away from religion?

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I don't think science has

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and I'm not sure that is it's purpose or aim.

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It isn't.

.

Trailblazer said:

That is not my homework. A teacher assigns homework for the student. A teacher does not read the book for the student.

I already did my homework decades ago when I read the books so I already know who Baha'u'llah was.

Aw, what the heck... Here they are, but if you want to know how they were fulfilled you will have to refer to the book, as I cannot post the entire book on a forum:

1. The fall from power of the French Emperor Napoleon III and the consequent loss of his empire.
2. The defeat of Germany in two bloody wars, resulting in the 'lamentations of Berlin'.
3. The success and stability of Queen Victoria's reign.
4. The dismissal of 'All Pasha as prime minister of Turkey.
5. The overthrow and murder of Sultan 'Abdu'l-'Aziz of Turkey.
6. The break up of the Ottoman Empire, leading to the extinction of the 'outward splendour' of its capital, Constantinople.
7. The downfall of Nasiri'd-Din Shah, the Persian monarch.
8. The advent of constitutional government in Persia.
9. A massive (albeit temporary) decline in the fortunes of monarchy throughout the world.
10. A worldwide erosion of ecclesiastical authority.
11. The collapse of the Muslim Caliphate.
12. The spread of communism, the 'Movement of the Left', and its rise to world power.
13. The catastrophic decline of that same movement, triggered by the collapse of its egalitarian economy.
14. The rise of Israel as a Jewish homeland.
15. The persecution of Jews on the European continent (the Nazi holocaust).
16. America's violent racial struggles.
17. Baha'u'llah's release from the prison of 'Akka and the pitching of His tent on Mount Carmel.
18. The seizure and desecration of Baha'u'llah's House in Baghdad.
19. The failure of all attempts to create schism within the Baha'i Faith.
20. The explosive acceleration of scientific and technological progress.
21. The development of nuclear weapons.
22. The achievement of transmutation of elements, the age-old alchemist's dream.
23. Dire peril for all humanity as a result of that achievement.
24. The discovery that complex elements evolve in nature from simpler ones.
25. The recognition of planets as a necessary byproduct of star formation.
26. Space travel.
27. The realization that some forms of cancer are communicable.
28. Failure to find evidence for a 'missing link' between man and ape.
29. The non-existence of a mechanical ether (the supposed light-carrying substance posited by classical physics), and its redefinition as an abstract reality.
30. The breakdown of mechanical models (literal images) as a basis for understanding the physical world.

From: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

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A Gish Gallop, which is what you just posted, is a form of lying. One by one you need to quote the exact supposed prophesies, not what the supposed prophesies were interpreted to refer to after the fact. I am betting that at least 90% of them go away. Remember it was you that essentially admitted that there were no valid prophecies when you refused to support them.

Trailblazer said:

How can you know that unless you know what God said about how you should act?

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Because what God says is irrelevant to how I would act. I will still attempt to be a good, thoughtful person no matter what some deity claims. I won't do what I consider to be evil just because a deity dictates it.

If God exists and He is a deist God, no, it would not change how you act, because there would be no way for you to know how God wants you to act...

But if God revealed info about how you should act, then it might make a big difference if you knew what that info was.

But if you do not read the instruction manual on how to fulfill your purpose, how do you think you can know how to fulfill your purpose? You cannot blame the creator for failing to read His instructions.

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I don't give a fig about what some deity thinks is my purpose. I determine what my purpose is, not a dictator.

They are not God's concerns for Himself; they are God's concerns for us. God is self-subsisting and self-sufficient, above the need for any of His creatures. We need God, God does not need us.

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I really have no need of a deity. I do not need God.

God is All-Knowing and All-Wise so God knows what is *best* for you. What you *want* might not be what is best for you. Did you ever want to eat all the cookies in the cookie jar when you were a kid?

Being All-Powerful gives God the right to dictate what we should do but God gives us a choice as to whether we do it or not.

If God is All-Knowing and All-Wise that is a sufficient reason to do what God dictates. ,

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I disagree. Again, I don't let others, even all-powerful deities, decide what is best for me (by their evaluation). That is my choice, not theirs. I might listen to their recommendations and reasons, but only if there *are* reasons I understand.

Nope, there is a lot more evidence for existence, albeit no proof...

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And on this, I disagree. The evidence (actually lack thereof) points to non-existence of deities.

Subduction Zone said:

A Gish Gallop, which is what you just posted, is a form of lying.

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It is not lying unless Baha'u'llah did not fulfill them, and then the author of the book would be the liar. not me or Baha'u'llah.

Subduction Zone said:

One by one you need to quote the exact supposed prophesies, not what the supposed prophesies were interpreted to refer to after the fact. I am betting that at least 90% of them go away. Remember it was you that essentially admitted that there were no valid prophecies when you refused to support them.

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That is a straw man. I never admitted there were no valid prophesies. I said that prophesies were not the best proof that a Prophet was a Prophet.

I am not going to quote the entire book, but I might quote one or two prophecies.