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Bakers Who Refused Lesbian Couple A Wedding Cake WILL Have To Pay $135,000

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Too bad businesses are required by law to perform services to people even if the people that own the business deem it to be immoral. Or are they?
That issue was settled about 50 years ago. They are required to do so.
At least according to the declaration of Independence.
The Declaration is non-binding and has no use, function, or purpose in American law. It did nothing more than declare American independence from British rule.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
The Declaration is non-binding and has no use, function, or purpose in American law.
What I'm talking about is how the constitution should be understood and interpreted. I'm not saying the declaration of independence is to be considered law. I'm using it as evidence for what I view as the correct understanding of the constitution and bill of rights. Disprove me.

It did nothing more than declare American independence from British rule.
But it's how we justify our revolution. Without which we have no reason for continued defiance to the Queen of Britain.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I'm using it as evidence for what I view as the correct understanding of the constitution and bill of rights. Disprove me.
Personally, I agree that the current laws are obsolete. And questionably constitutional, because the Authors didn't anticipate everything that has happened since.
But the Constitution absolutely does spell out the official method for determining whether legislation is in accordance with the Constitution or not. That is SCOTUS rulings, and they have ruled on this. Like other decisions I disagree with, like the"personal mandate" and Citizens United and many others. It's Constitutional if the SCOTUS says it is.

You have now got proof, straight from the Authors and Constitution.
Tom
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What I'm talking about is how the constitution should be understood and interpreted. I'm not saying the declaration of independence is to be considered law. I'm using it as evidence for what I view as the correct understanding of the constitution and bill of rights. Disprove me.


But it's how we justify our revolution. Without which we have no reason for continued defiance to the Queen of Britain.
Actually no one has to "disprove" you. When you make a claim, such as the one that you made about the Declaration of Independence you put the burden of proof upon yourself. The mention of "unalienable rights" in the Declaration of Independence has no legal standing:

Declaration of Independence

The opinion of someone that has no legal training on how the Constitution should be interpreted will not convince anyone either. Try to support your claims with court findings and you might get somewhere.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I did not have to meet your granddaddy to know there are plenty of people who use the Bible illegitimately in an attempt to support their own bias views in many areas. Although some, even many people, may have used the Bible to justify their personal racists attitudes, the Bible does not support racism and condemns the misuse of scriptures.
The Bible both supports and refutes any view a person can think of.

The God you’ve invented agrees with you, of course, so of course you interpret the book you assume was inspired by God in a way that agrees with you.

The Bible is an echo chamber: hand it to a racist and he’ll tell you that it endorses racism. Hand it to a progressive and he’ll tell you that it endorses same-sex marriage. Hand it to a conservative and he’ll tell you that it condemns same-sex marriage. Hand it to you and you’ll tell us that it supports your prejudices.

... or should we seriously believe that this book that’s been self-servingly interpreted ever since it was written is finally interpreted “correctly” by you and you alone?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
if he doesn't usually put words on a cake, he won't be fined for not putting words on a cake. Refusing to sell a cake to a Muslim because they are a Muslim would be something you could be fined for.

You think so, but in reality it won't be the case

Business displays racist window signs about Muslims and 'Obama toilet paper'

One sign in particular reads: "Obama & other Muslims Not welcome here".

"It's been here a long time," former store employee Marlon McWilliams told KOB, adding that the owner also sold signs that targeted Hillary and Bill Clinton and advertised "Obama toilet paper".

Business displays racist window signs about Muslims and 'Obama toilet paper'
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You think so, but in reality it won't be the case

Business displays racist window signs about Muslims and 'Obama toilet paper'

One sign in particular reads: "Obama & other Muslims Not welcome here".

"It's been here a long time," former store employee Marlon McWilliams told KOB, adding that the owner also sold signs that targeted Hillary and Bill Clinton and advertised "Obama toilet paper".

Business displays racist window signs about Muslims and 'Obama toilet paper'
He had signs that told the world of his prejudice. That is fine under freedom of speech, but if he acted upon his prejudice that would be another matter. Odds are that no Muslim would want to patronize that shop so his obvious prejudice was moot.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
What I'm talking about is how the constitution should be understood and interpreted. I'm not saying the declaration of independence is to be considered law. I'm using it as evidence for what I view as the correct understanding of the constitution and bill of rights. Disprove me.
Fortunately you are wrong, because if you were correct, we'd still see establishments with signs saying "no Negroes allowed."
Without which we have no reason for continued defiance to the Queen of Britain.
John Hancock's signature was so largely signed on the Declaration so that King George wouldn't need his glasses to read it.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
The Bible both supports and refutes any view a person can think of.

The God you’ve invented agrees with you, of course, so of course you interpret the book you assume was inspired by God in a way that agrees with you.

The Bible is an echo chamber: hand it to a racist and he’ll tell you that it endorses racism. Hand it to a progressive and he’ll tell you that it endorses same-sex marriage. Hand it to a conservative and he’ll tell you that it condemns same-sex marriage. Hand it to you and you’ll tell us that it supports your prejudices.

... or should we seriously believe that this book that’s been self-servingly interpreted ever since it was written is finally interpreted “correctly” by you and you alone?

I believe the Bible is meant to be a light to shine in upon myself to reveal areas that need change and conform me to the image of Christ. I think it is meant to be that light for each person, but of course each person must desire and choose to let this light shine into their own life.

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
He had signs that told the world of his prejudice. That is fine under freedom of speech, but if he acted upon his prejudice that would be another matter. Odds are that no Muslim would want to patronize that shop so his obvious prejudice was moot.

Do you think the bakery should have put a sign that says lesbians aren't welcomed here in order to escape the fine?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Do you think the bakery should have put a sign that says lesbians aren't welcomed here in order to escape the fine?

You did not understand. One can put up any sign that one wants. If one acts as if the sign gave them the authority to ignore a law then they could be punished for that wrong doing regardless.

If a baker had a sign "no lesbian wedding cakes" and a lesbian couple ordered one anyway legally they would still have to make one for them, at least in Oregon.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
You did not understand. One can put up any sign that one wants. If one acts as if the sign gave them the authority to ignore a law then they could be punished for that wrong doing regardless.

If a baker had a sign "no lesbian wedding cakes" and a lesbian couple ordered one anyway legally they would still have to make one for them, at least in Oregon.

I understand, but the article says that even signs will be illegal, also the article says that the fine is
for the emotional-distress damages caused to the couples, and I think a sign will have the same effect.

Quoted from the article
Rachel and Laurel Bowman-Cryer praised the ruling saying: 'Oregon will not allow a 'Straight Couples Only' sign to be hung in bakeries or other stores'

The owners of the since-closed Gresham bakery - Aaron and Melissa Klein - argued that state Labor Commissioner Brad Avakian violated state and federal laws by forcing them to pay emotional-distress damages of $135,000 to the lesbian couple Rachel and Laurel Bowman-Cryer.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I understand, but the article says that even signs will be illegal, also the article says that the fine is
for the emotional-distress damages caused to the couples, and I think a sign will have the same effect.

Quoted from the article

Then they do not understand the Constitution. One could have such a sign. If they tried to act on such a sign that would be illegal. The owners of such a business can make their ignorance and hatred as public as they would like. They still have the right to be bigoted fools. It would probably have killed their business if they put up such signs. As a straight person I could not in good conscious buy from such people and I think that most would feel that way. But that would not make such signs themselves illegal.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The law does not define the "limits of that freedom" They fought a war based on the belief that we were given "unalienable" rights from a Creator. So the idea that the constitution gives us our rights is not what was intended. The idea is that the constitution insures our God given rights from tyranny. Tyranny being defined as those who would take our God given rights from us. The rights are ours by nature; we're sovereign in this. At least according to the declaration of Independence.

You're right freedom isn't free which is why they fought a war over it.

Your rights don't come from a god. They come from men.

If they came from a god, our ancestors would have had them, and they'd be global, not regional.

After centuries of no god taking any action as mankind wallowed under the boots of kings, pharaohs, and emperors, a group of people rose up, fought and won a war to escape bondage and sat down and enumerated a set of freedoms, established courts and police forces to interpret and enforce them, modify them from time to time with amendments, and if need be, defend them by force. No god is involved. The Bible's only contribution was to inform its readers that they were bound to submit to the king as God's chosen despot.

That last fact is probably why the Declaration of Independence gives lip service to a creator being the source of their right to revolt. If your going to ask a population of Bible believing people to do that, you're going to need to justify disobeying scripture:

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2

"Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient" - Titus 3:1​

And yes, the law does define the limits of religious freedom, which is why we have several prominent cases in the news right now involving bakers defying that law and being found guilty of so doing. Even if the law eventually rules in the favor of those bakers - and so far it has done the opposite - it will still be the law defining the limits of religious freedom.

Perhaps you've misunderstood what church-state separation means. It's actually a misnomer. The state has complete authority over the church operating in its jurisdiction. Whatever religious freedoms the church enjoys are granted to it by the Constitution and the law, freedoms that can be expanded or contracted according to the workings of the democratic process. If the church tries to assert that it has the religious freedom to try women a witches and burn those convicted in their witch hunts, the state has the authority and power to stop them. There is no such religious freedom even if the church claims such for itself. Such an opinion would be treated as irrelevant.

And that's a good thing for the rest of us. We don't want the church and state to be separate sovereign entities. We want the state to have complete control over the limits of the church's activities, and to keep it out of the lives of those not interested in living under the values of the church. What we want is not separation of church and state, but separation of the church and ourselves. We depend on the state to protect us from the church, which is ever knocking at the doors of government trying to get in and use the state to enforce its values on every citizen. That's what it's up to now when it encourages its adherents to vote Republican in order to get Christians onto the courts including the Supreme Court to remove rights that Americans presently enjoy that offend the church.

If that's not an idea you support - and many if not most Christians don't - then you don't respect the idea of secular government - a basic and cherished American principle that people have died to establish and sustain.

This is what the church would do if it could separate itself from the authority of the state:

"The long term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to his Church's public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel." - Gary North

"I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be." - Jerry Falwell

"Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies." - Randall Terry

"Whenever the civil government forbids the practice of things that God has commanded us to do, or tells us to do things He has commanded us not to do, then we are on solid ground in disobeying the government and rebelling against it ... There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world." - Pat Robertson​

Hopefully, you agree that such people are disrespectful of the bedrock American principle of secular government, that the government is rightly empowered to prevent them from carrying out their very un-American theocratic agenda, that that is the way things should be, and that church-state separation is a misnomer for that relationship.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
He had signs that told the world of his prejudice. That is fine under freedom of speech, but if he acted upon his prejudice that would be another matter. Odds are that no Muslim would want to patronize that shop so his obvious prejudice was moot.
Just having the sign about Muslims could be prosecuted.
It would depend upon local laws & the prosecutor.
But Obama toilet paper is fine...a great Xmas gift for some!
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Your link wasn't convincing.

To condone is to "accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue."

In order to say that the Bible doesn't condone slavery, you'd need to show the scripture that explicitly condemns the practice in the manner that homosexuality and adultery, for example, are explicitly condemned. There are 613 commandments in the Bible, including commandments to not wear blended textiles, but none forbidding the owning of people.

Instead, the Bible offers rules for possessing and treating slaves, which is pretty much the very definition of condoning the practice.

And your source supports that attitude with comments like, "the child sold into slavery would at least have his basic needs met." Where is the outrage over such a practice?

Your source also disingenuously attempts to conflate indentured servitude with slavery. Indentured servitude doesn't include kidnapping, forced imprisonment, theft of ones labor, selling off a persons spouse and children, or beating even unto death. The author writes, "It is clear that the slavery mentioned in the Bible was quite different from the slavery practiced during the last several hundred years."

That is untrue. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews of antiquity were less brutal than the plantation owners of the pre-bellum American South even if less brutal arrangements were made to pay off debts. Taking defeated neighboring people into captivity and working them against their wills is slavery in the worst sense.

Your source also says, " While Paul mentions the preference of freedom over slavery, he doesn't place a great deal of importance on the issue (1 Corinthians 7:21-23). To Paul, spiritual status is much more important than social standing. He gladly identifies himself as a slave of Christ"

That's more condoning of slavery. We all prefer freedom over slavery. Failing to condemn the practice is condoning it. Most of us DO place a great deal of importance on the issue. Many of us place more importance on "social standing" than whatever is meant by spiritual status. Calling oneself a slave of Christ is to change the subject. And even if Paul were concerned about spiritual status, what is more soul- and spirit-crushing than stealing a man's freedom, hope and dignity?

This is classic biblical apologetics. You might benefit from realizing that it is written for people like you, not people unbelievers. It's to make you feel better about a moral lapse in scripture, a situation that would cause cognitive dissonance in the believer until rationalized away. You are hungry for answers that sanitize these flaws, so you are willing to agree with the author despite there being absolutely nothing in that paper that didn't also condone slavery.

It doesn't help you to enter debates like these with material that could only convince somebody that wants to be convinced. When you present this kind of think to skeptics, it has the opposite effect to that which you intend. What I see is that you cannot defend your position. That makes me a little more certain that it is wrong.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The Bible establishes rules for acquiring and keeping slaves, how to treat them, affirms it, and affirms that slaves are property.
Just having the sign about Muslims could be prosecuted.
It would depend upon local laws & the prosecutor.
Federal law clearly states you can't discriminate based on religion. It can be prosecuted regardless of what local laws say.
 
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