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Is faith a reliable means of ascertaining the truth?

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Faith or trust in what you believe in helps you find the truth despite what you your doubts. If you really believe in something, then you trust that your senses even the ones that doubt are senses of a person spiritually growing. So, if an atheist came to be christian and still had an issue with believing in a deity, if he really has trust/faith in his belief and want to believe, his mindset would be one of "wanting to find the truth" that he is still learning how to gain.

Depending on faith means trust yourself. If you don't trust yourself to learn things you are uncomfortable with, how are you growing in general. It isn't specific to religion but all things in life. If you don't have faith, how are you trying new things? How are you going out of your comfort zone to find out what you thought wasn't true is true? How do you define your comfort zone if you don't have trust and courage enough to question what you believe?

That's what faith does. So, yes, it does show people what is true and what is false. It's putting trust in.. not a religious word in and of itself. People come up with different conclusions. I don't see how one conclusion is more true than the other. That's ego.

Faith keeps people from searching for what is true. It allows you to believe what you want. The way to seek truth is to examine the evidence and go where it leads you even if it is not the outcome that you wish. Faith is beginning with what you want to believe and then trying to fit the evidence to your preconceptions. That is wrong-headed.

One conclusion is absolutely more true than another, because that conclusion is supported by the evidence and can be tested to be true.
 
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QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Your tests are hardly valid. You can't recreate the Big Bang, abiogenesis or millions of years. Those tests are lackluster at best.


ROFL... okay, thanks SO much for proving that you don't have a clue what the scientific method is. Are you under the impression that for a scientific experiment testing the BB theory to be valid that it must RECREATE the BB? Wow, you ignorance is truly phenomenal. I suppose you also think that there are no scientific experiments that provide evidence that the Earth orbits the sun, right? After all, WE CAN'T DUPLICATE THE EARTH ORBITING THE SUN.

Oh, and I know EXACTLY why you won't provide an example of a valid scientific experiment that tests the creationist theory... because NO SUCH EXPERIMENT EXISTS!

But please, do enjoy your life living in blissful ignorance.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
ROFL... okay, thanks SO much for proving that you don't have a clue what the scientific method is. Are you under the impression that for a scientific experiment testing the BB theory to be valid that it must RECREATE the BB? Wow, you ignorance is truly phenomenal. I suppose you also think that there are no scientific experiments that provide evidence that the Earth orbits the sun, right? After all, WE CAN'T DUPLICATE THE EARTH ORBITING THE SUN.

Oh, and I know EXACTLY why you won't provide an example of a valid scientific experiment that tests the creationist theory... because NO SUCH EXPERIMENT EXISTS!

But please, do enjoy your life living in blissful ignorance.

What would be wrong with anyone living their life in blissful ignorance?

Do they go to eternal hell or something after they die for not being scientifically eloquent?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
ROFL... okay, thanks SO much for proving that you don't have a clue what the scientific method is. Are you under the impression that for a scientific experiment testing the BB theory to be valid that it must RECREATE the BB? Wow, you ignorance is truly phenomenal. I suppose you also think that there are no scientific experiments that provide evidence that the Earth orbits the sun, right? After all, WE CAN'T DUPLICATE THE EARTH ORBITING THE SUN.

Oh, and I know EXACTLY why you won't provide an example of a valid scientific experiment that tests the creationist theory... because NO SUCH EXPERIMENT EXISTS!

But please, do enjoy your life living in blissful ignorance.

Sir, I enjoy life in Christ. Life without Him is meaningless for me. I believe God and His word over the various assumptions made by scientists whose theories change oft. The word of God does not change, ever.

Genesis 1 & 2 are the same today as they were when they were first written. As for scientists, well, they change their minds and theories around many times. And they are still no closer to the truth than when they started many years ago. For the wisdom of men is foolishness in God's sight.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
What is "a" God? Define what your proposing there is no existence of, and also elaborate on how you know those qualities pertain to what you're proposing there is no existence of. Obviously by the wording you use, you may already have preconceived images in your mind that if there were "a" God, it would be an individual.

Is it "a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship?"

Is it "infinite mind"?

Is it "Being" rather than A "being."

Is it "Life?"

Is it "Mind?"

Is it "Nature?"

Is it "the universe?"

Is it "the sum totality of all?"

Is it a "supernatural deity that is all knowing, all powerful, etc.?"

Anyone can make up in their mind whatever they please as completely being far-fetched and deem it's non-existence.

My definition of God is a mythical being made up by human beings. Why? Because every definition anyone has ever given me of what their God is has absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's anything other than myth. Redefining words we already have, such a universe, life, mind, or nature as God is just plain silly. If you're talking about the universe or life or nature just use those words.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Faith keeps people from searching for what is true. It allows you to believe what you want. The way to seek truth is to examine the evidence and go where it leads you even if it is not the outcome that you wish. Faith is beginning with what you want to believe and then trying to fit the evidence to your preconceptions. That is wrong-headed.

Well said!
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
My definition of God is a mythical being made up by human beings. Why? Because every definition anyone has ever given me of what their God is has absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's anything other than myth. Redefining words we already have, such a universe, life, mind, or nature as God is just plain silly. If you're talking about the universe or life or nature just use those words.

Well sure, we can all concoct something in our minds as to what something is and make it that it doesn't exist by claiming that we have monopoly of definitions.

We also already have words such as "mythical" and "being." So your definition would be plain silly under your own terms.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Well sure, we can all concoct something in our minds as to what something is and make it that it doesn't exist by claiming that we have monopoly of definitions.

We also already have words such as "mythical" and "being." So your definition would be plain silly under your own terms.


Uh... really? A unicorn is a mythical being. A goblin is a mythical being. There are multiple beings that can be defined as mythical. God is one such being that I define as mythical.

So when you say that God is the universe... what else are you claiming is the universe? Are there multiple other things that are routinely defined as the universe? If so, then I stand corrected. But if there is really just one thing that we call the universe, deciding to call it God or Dave or anything other than the universe is silly.
 

Profound Realization

Active Member
Hey, you're welcome to live as ignorantly as you choose. Personally, I do not.

You're full of judgements upon anyone who doesn't think like you. I'm wondering why? Have you done any self-contemplating lately? Why do you consider others as ridiculous, illogical, ignorant, unreasonable for not thinking as you? Are there special prizes and heavens that await the scientifically logical, non-ignorant, reasonable thinkers only?

When your own claims are highly improbable, you can't acknowledge this... you have to bring up a theory of a creator as being improbable to make yourself feel better. Why is it difficult to focus on your own claims only? It's quite easy for you to dodge your own crazy claims and concoct up something that is of equal crazy claims and laugh at others for doing the same as yourself.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Faith keeps people from searching for what is true. It allows you to believe what you want. The way to seek truth is to examine the evidence and go where it leads you even if it is not the outcome that you wish. Faith is beginning with what you want to believe and then trying to fit the evidence to your preconceptions. That is wrong-headed.

Faith (and age) got me to search for what is true. I had evidence by that christ was in the Eucharist through experience. Faith let me drop Christianity, because what was true didn't line up with how I wanted to live. Not all facts are healthy for a person to live by.

Faith is another word for trust. If you don't trust what you think is true evidence, experience, so have you, then you're headed for a dead-in if by luck you get somewhere. Trust lets you evaluate your perceptions because your perceptions you thought were true, now that you are starting to trust yourself (or for others trust another person), you find out the evidence was not true-at least for you.

Trust doesn't exclude evidence but makes you trust in the evidence if you want what you find to shape your life. If you have trust with nothing to build from it, then that is blind faith. Many people have different criteria of what they consider as evidence.

I'm not a "science person" so evidence is also one's experiences. When you have delusions, the delusions are real (people actually see what they think exists) and in some cases their delusions don't harm them or others, so they don't need help. Why would anyone criticize or try to make them see delusions as a delusion? What is the point? It is a fact by criteria put together by psychology (different type of science).

Likewise with belief in god. A Hindu's view of belief is based on experience. If one experiences Brahma, that (in addition) is evidence enough to know Brahma exist. Why would we call Brahma a delusion when the evidence for this fact is based on different criteria than what you are familiar or use?

You can't use the same criteria of evidence for everything. What is not true to you because it's not detectable by the six senses and tested is true to someone else because they can experience and test it by their senses and real life experience. Their point of reference is different than yours.

That does not make their view false. Unless you can find any evidence that god does not exist, both sides are in the same boat. You can't get evidence for what is not there. That's like testing if there is a person in front of you just because millions of people say there is. If god does exist, you can't get evidence that he is there if he does exist unless you go off of different criteria to support other people's beliefs that he does.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You're full of judgements upon anyone who doesn't think like you. I'm wondering why? Have you done any self-contemplating lately? Why do you consider others as ridiculous, illogical, ignorant, unreasonable for not thinking as you? Are there special prizes and heavens that await the scientifically logical, non-ignorant, reasonable thinkers only?

When your own claims are highly improbable, you can't acknowledge this... you have to bring up a theory of a creator as being improbable to make yourself feel better. Why is it difficult to focus on your own claims only? It's quite easy for you to dodge your own crazy claims and concoct up something that is of equal crazy claims and laugh at others for doing the same as yourself.

That was in response to you saying: "What would be wrong with anyone living their life in blissful ignorance?"

I didn't judge you. In fact I welcomed you to live just as ignorantly as you choose. And you should really read back through the posts were I talked about how improbable life is in the universe, since 99.99% of it is inhospitable to life.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
We all trust that our beliefs are true. But if faith does not motivate then it's not deeply held. Reading what is known about the biography of great beings from every religion, it's clear to me that their faith in something motivated them to radically change their lives and search for divinity.

And yet, they all reached different conclusions......so much for faith.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Faith (and age) got me to search for what is true. I had evidence by that christ was in the Eucharist through experience. Faith let me drop Christianity, because what was true didn't line up with how I wanted to live. Not all facts are healthy for a person to live by.

Faith is another word for trust. If you don't trust what you think is true evidence, experience, so have you, then you're headed for a dead-in if by luck you get somewhere. Trust lets you evaluate your perceptions because your perceptions you thought were true, now that you are starting to trust yourself (or for others trust another person), you find out the evidence was not true-at least for you.

Trust doesn't exclude evidence but makes you trust in the evidence if you want what you find to shape your life. If you have trust with nothing to build from it, then that is blind faith. Many people have different criteria of what they consider as evidence.

I'm not a "science person" so evidence is also one's experiences. When you have delusions, the delusions are real (people actually see what they think exists) and in some cases their delusions don't harm them or others, so they don't need help. Why would anyone criticize or try to make them see delusions as a delusion? What is the point? It is a fact by criteria put together by psychology (different type of science).

Likewise with belief in god. A Hindu's view of belief is based on experience. If one experiences Brahma, that (in addition) is evidence enough to know Brahma exist. Why would we call Brahma a delusion when the evidence for this fact is based on different criteria than what you are familiar or use?

You can't use the same criteria of evidence for everything. What is not true to you because it's not detectable by the six senses and tested is true to someone else because they can experience and test it by their senses and real life experience. Their point of reference is different than yours.

That does not make their view false. Unless you can find any evidence that god does not exist, both sides are in the same boat. You can't get evidence for what is not there. That's like testing if there is a person in front of you just because millions of people say there is. If god does exist, you can't get evidence that he is there if he does exist unless you go off of different criteria to support other people's beliefs that he does.

Experiences can indeed provide evidence in some cases. It is in the interpretation of the experience that problems arise. Often people interpret experiences in light of what the already believe or wish to be true. That is why the scientific method is so valuable. It removes the person from the experiment.

As support for this I offer the fact that people in every religion have "experiences" they claim support their preconceived religious beliefs, even though many contradict other religions.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Experiences can indeed provide evidence in some cases. It is in the interpretation of the experience that problems arise. Often people interpret experiences in light of what the already believe or wish to be true. That is why the scientific method is so valuable. It removes the person from the experiment.

As support for this I offer the fact that people in every religion have "experiences" they claim support their preconceived religious beliefs, even though many contradict other religions.

That's like using scientific evidence to prove what the client's seeing is not real or a delusion. Granted it may annoy some people, but psychiatry shows that these people actually do think they see what they see; and that is okay.

Why does there need to be only one type of criteria for facts? Psychiatry is a whole different field than medical science. Some things psychologists can't prove nor explain but the experiences of their clients prove otherwise. That's why there is talk therapy. It helps the client acknowledge their experiences and if it doesn't distress nor hurt the client, helps the client live with the experiences that people say he's crazy of.

A lot of us go by preconceived notions they use their beliefs to justify. We use experiences to justify the existence of abstract emotions (love, hate), based on preconceived ideas and definitions of the two words. One person's respect is another person's disrespect.

Religion in both examples is the same way. The first has psychiatric criteria to determine that experiences are evidence to the truth of the delusion. The second maybe actions of people in the past influence how they view respect today compared to another.

Religious criteria is based primarily on culture and superstition (widely held unexplained beliefs by definition).

Nothing wrong with these things. Why would it be an issue for those who criticize religious claims because they base their facts on a different criteria than others?
 

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
Should we then assume you believe in all extraordinary claims that are extraordinarily hard to believe?

.
I think I have the right to exercise my skepticism as much as other people.
It is fairly obvious that human beings are not powered by rational logic; we have social reasons, personal reasons for rejecting or accepting what is true beyond simple facts and logic.
In religion this is true, we see church dogma being dominated and fixed by churches, not by scripture. In atheism, that belief system has its reasons for rejecting the extraordinary, even mathematically of nigh Zero probability. It all comes down to Tom and Peter wanting to be part of a group that gives them what they need, whatever that need is, be it freedom from the idea that our morality should be a divine one, or one of personal choice, be it a matter of job, etc.

Thus, I believe in my extraordinary right to look at facts and determine for myself what they mean. Lately, there has been a push for anyone not agreeing with certain things about number of sexes, toilet use, whether one should honor the flag, and other social pressures. I don't give rat's azz for what others think I should or shouldn't accept -- unless it makes sense. To me, mineral rock soup is a joke. However, what other people choose to believe in doesn't matter to me as long as they don't violate my private space., or person.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That's like using scientific evidence to prove what the client's seeing is not real or a delusion. Granted it may annoy some people, but psychiatry shows that these people actually do think they see what they see; and that is okay.

Why does there need to be only one type of criteria for facts? Psychiatry is a whole different field than medical science. Some things psychologists can't prove nor explain but the experiences of their clients prove otherwise. That's why there is talk therapy. It helps the client acknowledge their experiences and if it doesn't distress nor hurt the client, helps the client live with the experiences that people say he's crazy of.

A lot of us go by preconceived notions they use their beliefs to justify. We use experiences to justify the existence of abstract emotions (love, hate), based on preconceived ideas and definitions of the two words. One person's respect is another person's disrespect.

Religion in both examples is the same way. The first has psychiatric criteria to determine that experiences are evidence to the truth of the delusion. The second maybe actions of people in the past influence how they view respect today compared to another.

Religious criteria is based primarily on culture and superstition (widely held unexplained beliefs by definition).

Nothing wrong with these things. Why would it be an issue for those who criticize religious claims because they base their facts on a different criteria than others?

I am not suggesting that we need material facts to accept emotions or perceptions. But just because a person perceives or imagines something does not mean that something is real or a fact.
An abusive husband may perceive that he loves his wife and that is the justification for beating her. I do not think that beating a person demonstrates love.

I had a mother-in-law we took care of for 10 plus years. she saw things like circuses on the front lawn, neighbors communicating behind her back by tapping out signals on the ground to each other, and many other absurdities. To her they were real. But her beliefs did not alter reality.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am not suggesting that we need material facts to accept emotions or perceptions. But just because a person perceives or imagines something does not mean that something is real or a fact.

True. The actual delusion say a person isn't real just because the person thinks he sees it. The different criteria of the factual experience is different thereby that person existing is a fact not by material evidence but by experience.

So, I don't understand if something isn't real (say god), what makes people question even to the point of debating about it? Claims don't make something true anymore than delusions make the person exist. I dont see the two an issue.

Why do others?

An abusive husband may perceive that he loves his wife and that is the justification for beating her. I do not think that beating a person demonstrates love.

To him, it is. That's fine. The authorities aren't concerned with his delusions or perceptions but his actions based on it. Unlike others with healthy delusions, he'd probably be treated for whatever he has so he can either live with it or get rid of it all together. The delusion doesn't hurt anyone.

If he didn't beat her, why would he delusions and justification of it be an issue?

I had a mother-in-law we took care of for 10 plus years. she saw things like circuses on the front lawn, neighbors communicating behind her back by tapping out signals on the ground to each other, and many other absurdities. To her they were real. But her beliefs did not alter reality.

If she doesn't hurt herself, others, and she can take care of herself, I would find it more hurtful to say her (pretending) her beliefs are not justified nor her justifications of it rather addressing the experiences-what is real.
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
That's like using scientific evidence to prove what the client's seeing is not real or a delusion. Granted it may annoy some people, but psychiatry shows that these people actually do think they see what they see; and that is okay.

Why does there need to be only one type of criteria for facts? Psychiatry is a whole different field than medical science. Some things psychologists can't prove nor explain but the experiences of their clients prove otherwise. That's why there is talk therapy. It helps the client acknowledge their experiences and if it doesn't distress nor hurt the client, helps the client live with the experiences that people say he's crazy of.

A lot of us go by preconceived notions they use their beliefs to justify. We use experiences to justify the existence of abstract emotions (love, hate), based on preconceived ideas and definitions of the two words. One person's respect is another person's disrespect.

Religion in both examples is the same way. The first has psychiatric criteria to determine that experiences are evidence to the truth of the delusion. The second maybe actions of people in the past influence how they view respect today compared to another.

Religious criteria is based primarily on culture and superstition (widely held unexplained beliefs by definition).

Nothing wrong with these things. Why would it be an issue for those who criticize religious claims because they base their facts on a different criteria than others?

Carlita,
I do not believe it is a good thing for people to believe in things that are false. Beliefs inform actions and false beliefs can cause you to act in a manner not consistent with reality. How can that not be wrong?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Carlita,
I do not believe it is a good thing for people to believe in things that are false. Beliefs inform actions and false beliefs can cause you to act in a manner not consistent with reality. How can that not be wrong?

It is wrong by criteria you set on it. In and of itself, I don't see it wrong. When I was in the Church I experienced Jesus' spirit in the Eucharist, the rush of the sacraments, and union with the Body of Christ, saints, and jesus himself. It didn't harm me physically. It didn't make me think anything insane and I didn't need to be treated for it.

It isn't morally wrong to believe in something that you feel doesn't correlate to reality. If you're not talking about material facts, what criteria are you using to determine what belief is fact or fiction?
 
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