The Divinity of Christ

THE CATHOLIC AND the Protestants believe in the Triune God (that the one true God is consists of three persons). For them, the Triune God is the God of the true Christians, thus those that reject the doctrine of the Trinity they immediately dismiss as Christians.

Is the doctrine of the Trinity a true Christian doctrine? Is the Triune God the God of the true Christians? Are the Christians are those that believe in the Trinity?




FOR THE TRUE CHRISTIANS, THE
FATHER IS ONLY TRUE GOD

Who is the God of the true Christians? This is what Apostle Paul said in I Corinthians 8:6:

“Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.” (NIV)

When Apostle Paul said “Yet for us,” he is referring to the true Christians. Thus, when he said “Yet for us,” Apostle Paul means “for the true Christians.” Who is the true God of the true Christians? Apostle Paul clearly said, “Yet for us (for the true Christians) there is but one God, the Father…”

trablano said:

Maybe it would be interesting to throw in a shot of panentheism. That the divine things are always also cosmic things because that's where they come from and that's what came from them. The gods cannot be fickle or superfluous, they must be diligent and earnest. The cosmos and the god of the gods are one, the background, the cause of it all, where everything comes from. Medieval monks called this the great Nothing but Krause's Panentheism speaks of a something that blooms there, that keeps us going and lifts us up. In Israel there was a teacher who held a cosmotheism, that the Cosmos in on his way to become a truly omnipotent God. The planets, solar systems, as organisms. I remember reading an old scifi book about this once, that cosmic immune cells are on their way to Earth to righten things. The deities must be as careful as we are ethically and morally. And they are, but they have not always been, that's why Jesus came to give a new example, to birth a new man. Since then man has his honor in Christ. Although the critique of the Cosmos is strong, it is not without hope and not without mercy. Those who feel pain need mercy, not more judgment. That again is the new creature, not just divine but also cosmic. We need reach forward, save this world, save our solar system, break out into the cosmos the new frontier. On the Earth, the reign of the US is reaching its end and China and Russia have new heights. Communism and socialism will reinvent themselves and become attractive again in the world. Social consciousness will rise again and overcome class restrictions that cannot hold together meaningfully and will erode again and be powerless to mankind awakening.

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Hi @trablano , thanks for contributing. Interesting answer and a little hard for me to follow. How long have you been a Christian? Have you studied much of the gospels and early church history?

KenS said:

LOL... I think that just depends on the heart of the person.

Jesus preached a beautiful message that brought light to the prostitute but heat for the religious.

I don't think that it can't be resolved... or let me say it another way. It just depends on ones philosophical paradigm as it becomes unsolvable if one has a particular belief system that makes it so.

The following is just my viewpoint.

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I agree that how we view scripture does depend on the condition of our hearts and the Jesus preached a beautiful message.

KenS said:

I don't think this is a possibility for the following reasons:

1) He would also be like any other man with the eventual natural death. It takes sin to die and therefore it would run contrary to too many scriptures.
2) It does run contrary to the virgin birth.
3) With the prophetic shadow of Sarah and Abraham (Isaac), it was God who had to produce the miracle of Isaac vs Ishmael, the product of man and woman.

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I see how option (1) is a problem for you.

However I have no problem with Jesus being fully human like us, having had his life begin in the womb of Mary, having the DNA of his biological parents, and eventually dying (physically.) It is the way of all humans and what sets Jesus apart has nothing to do with His biology IMHO. What makes Jesus unique is His spiritual attributes and qualities. In like manner Moses did not require any special physiology to mediate an Eternal covenant between God and man (the Hebrew people), and to achieve spiritual greatness.

I do not believe it runs contrary to a virgin birth. I'm not convinced that the story of Sarah and Abraham's struggle to conceive a son relates to the virgin birth story in that manner.

This option allows for a miracle without catapulting into the realm of the impossible. However we do have an Omnipotent, All-Powerful God so the impossible become possible. However the overuse of this argument to make everything in the bible literally true is both unnecessary, discourages our God given capacity for unravelling the spiritual mysteries in the bible, and leads to the creation of an implausible narrative.

That is my honest view, but I respect your right to see it differently.

KenS said:

Which, as you pointed out, it is either 2 or 3 since we are dealing with a God who defies the laws of nature and science.

But #2 creates the same problem as #1. To have a corrupted DNA creates a person who cannot help but eventually produce a corrupted life (at some measure). Whether it is a lie, a disrespectful moment with parents, an unjustified anger etc. It just takes one disobedience to produce sin that produces death.

#3 conforms with all requirements that scripture provides.

(Perhaps the bigger problem is whether or not we believe scripture to be true in its expressions and message)

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At least I can see how you view it. You have a narrative that explains John 1:1-3 and I accept that. The only other major concern I have repeatedly stated in this thread is polytheism. Why not do the same with any polytheistic belief systems with many gods, and say there is One supreme God, and make the other gods, part of this One God. Why not? Because the OT placed a great deal of emphasis on avoiding polytheistic belief systems that were the norm at that time. All that we need to do is possess a statue of Jesus and mother Mary, and there are remarkable similarities to paganism/polytheism IMHO.

KenS said:

IMV, it is important for if he is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, he also must be spotless.

Each sacrificed lamb went through a process of judgment making sure there wasn't any defect to disqualify it. The whole of the procedure was what Jesus went through.

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However purity does not need to depend on having no biological parents. Jesus did have human emotions. He became very angry when driving the sellers out of the temple court. The only other character in the bible without biological parents was Adam, and he went from paradise to fallen. Having an absence of parents didn't bode well for Adam.

In summary having Jesus that was literally with God, and was God from the beginning of time that has no beginning, may work for you, but I struggle with it. I prefer to maintain the virgin birth as a Divine mystery.

Thank you for your post.

MJFlores said:

Jesus is the Son of the Living God

“Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16 NIV)

Although the apostles teach that Jesus is the Son of the living God, however, the Bible also tells us that Jesus, the Son of the living God, is man in nature:

“And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely THIS MAN WAS THE SON OF GOD!’” (Mark 15:39, NIV, emphasis mine).

Thus, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of the living God, and not the living God.

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Ie a demi-god?

Hello Adrian,

I have believed in God since about 2000, although sometimes I believed before. I got baptized into a lutheran church in 2008.

But currently I am more panentheistic and polytheistic as I also regard Zeus and Krishna and many others as active deities on Earth.

I've read through the entire bible mutliple times, but I am not a scholar. I don't know all too much about early church history.

God bless you much!

syncretic said:

Ie a demi-god?

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The term demigod or demi-god can refer to a minor deity, a mortal or immortal who is the offspring of a god and a human being, or a figure who has attained divine status after death.
Demigod - Wikipedia

Galatians 4:5-7 Common English Bible (CEB)

This was so he could redeem those under the Law so that we could be adopted. Because you are sons and daughters, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!” Therefore, you are no longer a slave but a son or daughter, and if you are his child, then you are also an heir through God.

Would that make people demigods? No.

I can easily imagine Jesus wanting all of us to be demigods. After all he was the only one for a while, except for Magdalena his girlfriend. There is value and depth in humans and in gods, and there must also be demigods.

trablano said:

I can easily imagine Jesus wanting all of us to be demigods. After all he was the only one for a while, except for Magdalena his girlfriend. There is value and depth in humans and in gods, and there must also be demigods.

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Humans as demigods?
Magdalena his girlfriend?

Why do you think Jesus had no girlfriend? Nobody can do without romantic love, it's one of the most positive things in life there is.

trablano said:

Why do you think Jesus had no girlfriend? Nobody can do without romantic love, it's one of the most positive things in life there is.

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It is not recorded in the Bible that Jesus was in a romantic affair with anyone. What is not written, let us not assume.

When people assume, they are just works of fiction.

The bible assumes, often wrongly, so many things about man. He is supposed to be pure evil since birth, does all kinds of wicked things all the time and before God man is not only sinful but doomed to eternal suffering in hell if he does not cowtow to Jesus. That's not fair and not right, and why I think the bible is a big forgery. Some people knew that Jesus had a girlfriend and didn't want this to be known. Idolatry is seen as worse than murder - what's wrong with seeing a god in an idol? We also have idols of Jesus, many different ones.

KenS said:

I don't remember about moons ago. But I would liken God to Nature as to David and the Statue of Michelangelo

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Hey, I modeled for that statue!

MJFlores said:

Jesus is the Son of the Living God

“Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16 NIV)

Although the apostles teach that Jesus is the Son of the living God, however, the Bible also tells us that Jesus, the Son of the living God, is man in nature:

“And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely THIS MAN WAS THE SON OF GOD!’” (Mark 15:39, NIV, emphasis mine).

Thus, the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is the Son of the living God, and not the living God.

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I believe God does not have sons as the Qu'ran states. So it can only mean that He is a son and He is God.

MJFlores said:

GOD IS THE FATHER AND
JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD

Numerous verses of the Bible clearly state that the Father alone is the true God. However, Jesus explicitly proves that He is not the Father when He said that:

John 14:28 NKJV
“You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.”

The Lord Jesus Christ said that “My Father is greater than I.” thus, it is wrong to say that Jesus is also the Father, the one true God. Jesus is different from the One True God, from the Father, and He himself testified to this truth when He said “My father is greater than I.” Who then is the Lord jesus:

Matthew 16:16 NKJV
“Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

The Bible clearly teaches that the Lord Jesus christ is the Son of God of the living God.


Thus, God is the Father and Jesus is the Son of God. Hence, the Lord Jesus (the Son of God) is different from the One true God (the Father). Take note that although I believe that Jesus Christ is not God, but we firmly believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

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I don't believe you do. I believe you just believe in a phrase without having a clue as to its meaning.

I believe you are correct since He is one with the Father. God is one. The Father is God and the Son is God but the Son is not the Father. The difference is the human body which is not God but it does form the dichotomy.

I believe the only difference is the body.

However that may be one must still recognize God in Jesus. Jesus is not just a man and not just a body. The Spirit of God dwells in Him.

trablano said:

The bible assumes, often wrongly, so many things about man. He is supposed to be pure evil since birth, does all kinds of wicked things all the time and before God man is not only sinful but doomed to eternal suffering in hell if he does not cowtow to Jesus. That's not fair and not right, and why I think the bible is a big forgery. Some people knew that Jesus had a girlfriend and didn't want this to be known. Idolatry is seen as worse than murder - what's wrong with seeing a god in an idol? We also have idols of Jesus, many different ones.

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Can you cite the bible verse where you read these things?

Muffled said:

I believe God does not have sons as the Qu'ran states. So it can only mean that He is a son and He is God.

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Well, your god must be like that.

trablano said:

The bible assumes, often wrongly, so many things about man. He is supposed to be pure evil since birth, does all kinds of wicked things all the time and before God man is not only sinful but doomed to eternal suffering in hell if he does not cowtow to Jesus. That's not fair and not right, and why I think the bible is a big forgery. Some people knew that Jesus had a girlfriend and didn't want this to be known. Idolatry is seen as worse than murder - what's wrong with seeing a god in an idol? We also have idols of Jesus, many different ones.

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I believe it is fair. Everyone has to make the same decision.

I believe it is right in that God determines what is right. It simply is not right for evil people to have eternal life.

Muffled said:

I believe you are correct since He is one with the Father. God is one. The Father is God and the Son is God but the Son is not the Father. The difference is the human body which is not God but it does form the dichotomy.

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In other words, you have 2 gods. I thought you had 3, where is the other one? You forgot to mention?

IF JESUS IS GOD THEN THERE WILL BE TWO GODS

The father alone is the true God. This is the teaching explicitly written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the apostles, and even the prophets of ancient Israel clearly declared that there is only One True God, the Father. And the Lord Jesus Christ also declared that to attain eternal life is to accept that the Father is the only true God:

John 17:3, 1 NIV
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
“After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

There is no contradiction in the Bible. This teaching of the Holy Scripture that the Father alone is the True God must not be contradicted. Thus, if a belief contradicts this teaching of the Bible that there is only One True God, the Father, that belief must be rejected. The apostles admonish the Christians to reject the “gospel” different from the one they preached:

Galacia 1:6-8 NIV
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

Did you know that the belief that the Lord Jesus is God contradict the teaching of the Bible that the Father alone is the true God?


JESUS IS A MAN WHO HAS TOLD THE TRUTH
WHICH HE HEARD FROM GOD

John 8:40 NKJV
“But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”

If Jesus is the true God then who is the God that from Him Jesus heard the truth? Hence, there will be two Gods.


JESUS IS THE SERVANT OF GOD

Acts 3:13 NKJV
“The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.”

If Jesus is God, then God (Jesus) is a Servant of another God because Jesus is the Servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus, there will be two Gods.


JESUS IS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

Colossians 3:1 NKJV
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.”

Accepting Jesus as God is like saying that God is sitting at the right hand of another God because Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God.


JESUS IS THE CHRIST OF GOD

Luke 9:20 NKJV
“He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, ‘The Christ of God.’”

Christ is God? Then “God is Christ of another God.” Truly, the belief that Christ is God deviate from the teachings of the Holy Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ of the One True God, the Father.


JESUS IS GOD’S MESSENGER AND HIGH PRIEST

Hebreo 3:1 LB
“Therefore, dear brothers whom God has set apart for himself-you who are chosen for heaven-I want you to think now about this Jesus who is God's Messenger and the High Priest of our faith.”

Thus, accepting Jesus as God is like accepting that God’s messenger is also God, and God’s High Priest is also God. Two Gods? God (Jesus) is the messenger of another God? God (Jesus) is the High Priest of another God? Truly, the teaching that Christ is God is a “different gospel.”


JESUS IS THE LAMB OF GOD

John 1:36 NKJV
“And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, ‘Behold the Lamb of God!’”

Jesus is the “Lamb of God.” If Jesus is God, then God is the Lamb of another God. Two Gods? Is that acceptable to the Bible? No.


GOD MADE JESUS LORD AND CHRIST

Acts 2:36 NIV
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Thus, accepting Christ as God is like accepting that God was made Lord and Christ. And who is the God that made Him Lord and Christ? Then there will be two Gods.


CONCLUSION

These are only some of numerous verses in the Bible that prove that if we are going to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, there will be two Gods, and this contradicts the teaching clearly written in the Bible that the Father alone is the True God.

MJFlores said:

In other words, you have 2 gods. I thought you had 3, where is the other one? You forgot to mention?
View attachment 17641
IF JESUS IS GOD THEN THERE WILL BE TWO GODS

The father alone is the true God. This is the teaching explicitly written in the Bible. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself, the apostles, and even the prophets of ancient Israel clearly declared that there is only One True God, the Father. And the Lord Jesus Christ also declared that to attain eternal life is to accept that the Father is the only true God:

John 17:3, 1 NIV
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
“After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

There is no contradiction in the Bible. This teaching of the Holy Scripture that the Father alone is the True God must not be contradicted. Thus, if a belief contradicts this teaching of the Bible that there is only One True God, the Father, that belief must be rejected. The apostles admonish the Christians to reject the “gospel” different from the one they preached:

Galacia 1:6-8 NIV
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

Did you know that the belief that the Lord Jesus is God contradict the teaching of the Bible that the Father alone is the true God?


JESUS IS A MAN WHO HAS TOLD THE TRUTH
WHICH HE HEARD FROM GOD

John 8:40 NKJV
“But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.”

If Jesus is the true God then who is the God that from Him Jesus heard the truth? Hence, there will be two Gods.


JESUS IS THE SERVANT OF GOD

Acts 3:13 NKJV
“The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.”

If Jesus is God, then God (Jesus) is a Servant of another God because Jesus is the Servant of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Thus, there will be two Gods.


JESUS IS SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD

Colossians 3:1 NKJV
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.”

Accepting Jesus as God is like saying that God is sitting at the right hand of another God because Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God.


JESUS IS THE CHRIST OF GOD

Luke 9:20 NKJV
“He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered and said, ‘The Christ of God.’”

Christ is God? Then “God is Christ of another God.” Truly, the belief that Christ is God deviate from the teachings of the Holy Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ of the One True God, the Father.


JESUS IS GOD’S MESSENGER AND HIGH PRIEST

Hebreo 3:1 LB
“Therefore, dear brothers whom God has set apart for himself-you who are chosen for heaven-I want you to think now about this Jesus who is God's Messenger and the High Priest of our faith.”

Thus, accepting Jesus as God is like accepting that God’s messenger is also God, and God’s High Priest is also God. Two Gods? God (Jesus) is the messenger of another God? God (Jesus) is the High Priest of another God? Truly, the teaching that Christ is God is a “different gospel.”


JESUS IS THE LAMB OF GOD

John 1:36 NKJV
“And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, ‘Behold the Lamb of God!’”

Jesus is the “Lamb of God.” If Jesus is God, then God is the Lamb of another God. Two Gods? Is that acceptable to the Bible? No.


GOD MADE JESUS LORD AND CHRIST

Acts 2:36 NIV
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Thus, accepting Christ as God is like accepting that God was made Lord and Christ. And who is the God that made Him Lord and Christ? Then there will be two Gods.


CONCLUSION

These are only some of numerous verses in the Bible that prove that if we are going to accept that the Lord Jesus Christ is God, there will be two Gods, and this contradicts the teaching clearly written in the Bible that the Father alone is the True God.

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I believe this is a false conclusion because it does not follow from the premise.

I believe this is true to an extent. It becomes irrelevant after the dichotomy occurs.

I believe the fact that Jesus is God in the flesh does not alter that fact.

I believe I know what is true and your statement is not.

I believe your concept is false. Jesus has a mind as any human does and it hears just as any human mind does but that does not alter the fact that God is in Jesus but only enhances the hearing to perfection. Therefore your conclusion is false because it is not God speaking to God but God speaking to man.

I believe this is similar to the concept that God can't talk to Himself (of course He can). God can serve Himself He certainly doesn't need another God to do it.

I believe again this is another false concept. God is always beside Himself because He is everywhere.

I believe when I stop laughing I may be able to respond to this inanity. Jesus is not the Christ of another God.

I believe next you will be telling me that the Spirit of God is another God because God is a Spirit. I don't believe you are capable of seeing how ridiculous your arguments are but for your information God can be whatever He wishes to be, messenger, high priest, warrior, healer, plaguer; the list goes on and on.

I don't believe you just tried to turn a metaphor into a God. I believe God is whatever He wants to be shepherd also, light of the world. When are you going to see the light?

I believe you try so hard in vain. There is one God who is Lord and Christ and He can make Himself anything He wishes.

I believe your conclusion is false because your premises are false.

MJFlores said:

In other words, you have 2 gods. I thought you had 3, where is the other one? You forgot to mention?

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OHHHHH!! I GOT IT!!!

Since I am a spirit that has a soul and live in a body.... I have THREE people!

GOT IT!! You make it so clear!!

adrian009 said:

I see how option (1) is a problem for you.

However I have no problem with Jesus being fully human like us, having had his life begin in the womb of Mary, having the DNA of his biological parents, and eventually dying (physically.) It is the way of all humans and what sets Jesus apart has nothing to do with His biology IMHO. What makes Jesus unique is His spiritual attributes and qualities. In like manner Moses did not require any special physiology to mediate an Eternal covenant between God and man (the Hebrew people), and to achieve spiritual greatness.
.

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I can respect your viewpoint.

I do not believe it runs contrary to a virgin birth. I'm not convinced that the story of Sarah and Abraham's struggle to conceive a son relates to the virgin birth story in that manner.
.

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Did you find any parallel between Abraham, Sarah and Isaac?

For an example, that the request of the sacrifice of Isaac was on the same mountain where Jesus was crucified? I find so many parallels throughout the story.

At least I can see how you view it. You have a narrative that explains John 1:1-3 and I accept that. The only other major concern I have repeatedly stated in this thread is polytheism. Why not do the same with any polytheistic belief systems with many gods, and say there is One supreme God, and make the other gods, part of this One God. Why not? Because the OT placed a great deal of emphasis on avoiding polytheistic belief systems that were the norm at that time. All that we need to do is possess a statue of Jesus and mother Mary, and there are remarkable similarities to paganism/polytheism IMHO.
.

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I can understand. It certainly is fodder for the issue. And certainly anything can be made a god or gods. Even Moses's constructed rod with a serpent on it was made a god and had to be destroyed. I think it just comes back to the heart.

I respect your position and am understanding your POV. At some point, we may just stop sharing on this thread after we understand each others viewpoint.

This issue was settled for me when I understood that I was also a three-part being. Each part different and yet together one. But that was for me.
.

In summary having Jesus that was literally with God, and was God from the beginning of time that has no beginning, may work for you, but I struggle with it. I prefer to maintain the virgin birth as a Divine mystery.

Thank you for your post.

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Cool... thank you for sharing.