While on earth Jesus' mission was to the Jews, to renew his own. If He intended to start a new religion wouldn't He have begun with the Gentiles? People He had little or nothing to do with. He was a Jew in line with Phariseeism.
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What are your thoughts about the Catholic Church?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
While on earth Jesus' mission was to the Jews, to renew his own. If He intended to start a new religion wouldn't He have begun with the Gentiles? People He had little or nothing to do with. He was a Jew in line with Phariseeism.
20, not 10:
Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 34:1-28 - New English Translation
I have problems with more than just that one, personally.
Where does Jesus say to only keep 10 commandments?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
The walking away from observance of the kosher Laws appears to have been the result of Peter's vision, whereas all foods were considered "clean".
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Again, let me ask you as to why you observe only the first 10 Commandments but ignore the rest that are found in Torah whereas Moses says they are from God? Here they are and where they're found in your Bible that was canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th and 5th centuries: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And why is it that you ignore the scriptures on this and also well-established history?
BTW, why do you keep on reemphasizing Linus' Italian heritage? Does that somehow automatically disqualify him from being a leader? Oh, maybe you want to extend Trump's wall to divide Italy and Israel?
Though that only dealt with food. I've never heard a satisfactory answer for why it would affect practices not involving food.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Exactly, since all Jews living in Jesus' time would well know that the "Law" refers to all of the 613 Commandments.
Also, Christians have said that the Law ended with Jesus (he "fulfilled" the Law), so some should ask themselves whether the Law still should be observed and not just pick & choose which they prefer to follow?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
OK, now I getcha as I misinterpreted where you were coming from.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
During the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord God said:
Jeremiah 31:31-32 New International Version (NIV)
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
The first covenant was given by God after he delivered them from Egypt and we could read the laws given to the Israelites in the Books of Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. - Israel broke God's covenant over and over again.
The new covenant will not be like the covenant God made with the ancestors of Israel and Judah
Was this confirmed the apostles?
Hebrews 8:6
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
Hebrews 8:8
But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Did the Lord Jesus Christ established a new religion, yes he did. The old covenant is now obsolete.
Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
And why is it that you ignore the scriptures on this and also well-established history?
BTW, why do you keep on reemphasizing Linus' Italian heritage? Does that somehow automatically disqualify him from being a leader? Oh, maybe you want to extend Trump's wall to divide Italy and Israel?
The Lord Jesus Christ have given the knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven to his disciples.
Matthew 13:11
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
That is how important the apostles of Jesus were.
Now if we would analyze the first batch of popes, after Peter these are as follows:
- St. Linus (67-76)
- St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
- St. Clement I (88-97)
- St. Evaristus (97-105)
- Thomas died AD 72
- Philip died A.D 80
- John died AD 100
- Thomas vs Linus
- Philip vs Linus and Cletus
- John vs Linus to Evaristus
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
The appointment is so special that they are hated and ignored by the world
John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is,you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
Jesus Christ choosing of his apostles are so special that even their names are written on the wall foundations of the holy city of God.
Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
So my conclusions are:
- Apostolic succession is a mere fabrication - human teachings not based on the Bible
- Peter preached in Israel and died in Israel
- Peter knew well the commands of the Lord Jesus and would not accepted the title pappas which means Father
- 3 apostles were alive when the 4 Gentile popes allegedly succeeded Peter
The first covenant was with Adam, then Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ. The covenant with Noah remains in effect, the covenant with Abraham is eternal, and yes the Jews repeatedly break the covenant with Moses as we repeatedly break the covenant with Christ. And this 'new' covenant with Christ was through the Jews.
And He made this covenant within the Jewish liturgy.
Yet in John's gospel they hardly get a mention! According to the NT it is Peter who had prominence.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Jeremiah 31:31-32
New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the Lord.
Romans 15:11-16New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
and again,
“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples praise him”;
and again Isaiah says,
“The root of Jesse shall come,
the one who rises to rule the Gentiles;
in him the Gentiles shall hope.”
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I myself feel confident about you, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to instruct one another. Nevertheless on some points I have written to you rather boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Root Of Jesse
ROOT OF JESSE
(shoresh yishay (Isaiah 11:10); rhiza tou Iessai (Romans 15:12)):
The Hebrew and Greek words are practically the same in meaning. "Root" means descendant, branch of the family or stock. The Messianic king was to be of the family of Jesse the father of David. In Romans 15:12 Paul quotes the Septuagint of Isaiah 11:10. Jesus is a branch or descendant of the family of Jesse, as well as of David.
Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I agree as I see Jesus as a reformer coming from a liberal Pharisee paradigm. I personally knew one theologian who said that he and some others refer to them as "love Pharisees", namely those who believe that the love of God and one's neighbor transcends all.
With them, the belief tended to be that the Law had a purpose at first, but that the ultimate purpose of the Law was to create a person, a people, and eventually and entire world whereas compassion and justice for all prevails-- the "law of love".
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
What you write above defies even basic logic, plus it contains untruths, and simply repeating these untruths does not make them truths. These have already been covered ad nauseam, and yet you don't let the Bible nor historical facts interfere with your opinions. I guess that leaves us at an impasse, so unless you have some new revelation, ...
ciao.
A reformer, prophet, sage, holy man etc. As the Pharisees He believed the Torah could be interpreted, and I think Jesus preached the 'heart of the Torah'.
... when he wasn't threatening people with "woe", cursing fig trees, or attacking people with improvised bullwhips.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus started a new religion.
He was the instrument for God to make the NEW COVENANT as mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31 and which Jesus revealed in the Last Supper Luke 22:20
The Old Covenant was the Law of Moses for the Israelites.
The New Covenant also included the Gentiles as written in the Old Testament. In the Book of Isaiah which is found in the Old Testament these are stated:
Isaiah 42:6
“I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
Isaiah 49:6
he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
When God made the new covenant through the Lord Jesus Christ - a new religion was made
- The Jews have circumcision but this one is no longer required
- The Jews do not eat seafood without scales but this one no longer requires it
- The Jews do not eat pigs etc but this one no longer requires it
- The Jews observe the Sabbath but this one no longer requires it
- The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah but this one has the Messiah, Jesus Christ
They could not accept the fact that the first century Church was apostatized because it is built by Christ, taught by the apostles, and guided by the Holy Spirit. It is of God and the nation of God, so for them it is impossible that apostasy would take place. However, they forgot that before the Church of Christ, Israel was the nation of God. In Deuteronomy 7:6 this is what the Bible tells about Israel:
“For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.” (NIV)
How did Israel became God’s nation? In II Samuel 7:24, this is what is written:
“You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God.” (NIV)
The following were the privileges enjoyed by the Israelites when they were still the nation of God:
“They are God's people; he made them his sons and revealed his glory to them; he made his covenants with them and gave them the Law; they have the true worship; they have received God's promises.” (Romans 9:4 TEV)
Although Israel was the first nation of God, that God Himself established them as His people and they received His promises, however, Israel was apostatized and did not remained God’s nation:
“All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you. "Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you.” (Daniel 9:11 NIV)
Israel “turned way” from God. Isn’t that the words “turned away” are synonymous with “apostatized”? Israel was indeed apostatized, that is why she was replaced as God’s nation. Apostle Peter attests to this fact:
“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. I Peter 2:9-10 NIV
Apostle Peter is referring to the Church of Christ, the Church that Christ established. Thus, because Israel did not remained faithful to God and has been apostatized, she was replaced as God’s nation by the first century Church of Christ.
Here, we can see that the argument that the first century Church of Christ will never be apostatized because she was built by Christ and God acknowledge her as His nation” is baseless. Israel was established by God as His people, receiving God’s promises and covenant, acknowledge as God’s nation, but she was apostatized and been replaced.
Therefore, although the first century Church of Christ was apostatized, it doesn’t mean that Christ failed. It was not Christ, but it was the people who failed to continue obeying His commandments. Remember that Christ will only continue to be with them if they will continue obeying everything He commanded.
In the true sense of an OT prophet.