When did you decide?

Buttercup · Jun 28, 2006

Katzpur said:
That was beautifully expressed, Buttercup! Thank you.

I'm curious (if you don't think it will derail the thread) what "traditional doctrines" you've distanced yourself from. (And, no, I'm not going to suggest some "alternatives" )

The major teaching I am straying from in recent months is the idea of there being a "Hell" in any way shape or form. Just doesn't make sense to me that there would be a hell at all.

Hell would make more sense if we each saw God standing before us in person, full of love and amazing glory. He asks us if we want to follow him and his ways while living on earth and promises after we die we get to live with him into infinity in a perfect utopian heaven. If we say "No, thanks" after this real and personal invitation, I can almost see him casting us into hell because it was our choice to do so with 100% proof of his existence.

But, we don't get this 100% proof of his existence yet we are supposed to believe that we are cast into hell for all eternity because we don't choose to follow what many consider a myth? How is that fair? How can we be judged for our decision when we don't have absolute facts? We are to decide on something this important with no meeting with the Creator? No personal written instructions? We are expected to take the word of a book ONLY?

My rational mind struggles with this issue mightily. And it's a big one.

kevmicsmi · Jun 28, 2006

We are to decide on something this important with no meeting with the Creator?

In Christianity, is that not exactly what Jesus Christ was?

Buttercup · Jun 28, 2006

kevmicsmi said:
In Christianity, is that not exactly what Jesus Christ was?

I've never had a meeting with Christ. We still have to take the word of text written after his death.....some say the earliest accounts were written 35 years after he died.

I believe through faith Christ existed and was who he claimed he was. I'm just not sure I believe the whole New Testament definition of Hell I've been hearing for two decades.

kevmicsmi · Jun 28, 2006

Buttercup said:
I've never had a meeting with Christ. We still have to take the word of text written after his death.....some say the earliest accounts were written 35 years after he died.

I believe through faith Christ existed and was who he claimed he was. I'm just not sure I believe the whole New Testament definition of Hell I've been hearing for two decades.

I understand. I think I have faith that God is a just God, so if there is actual fire and brimstone, I automatically have faith that God will eventually reveal himself to anyone who is held accountable for renouncing Him.

Buttercup · Jun 28, 2006

kevmicsmi said:
I understand. I think I have faith that God is a just God, so if there is actual fire and brimstone, I automatically have faith that God will eventually reveal himself to anyone who is held accountable for renouncing Him.

That is probably the only thought that has held me through steadfastly all these years....I believe God to be perfectly just as well. I still don't see the need for Hell however.

kevmicsmi · Jun 28, 2006

We do need somewhere to put all those raider and chief fans........ Throw in the refs while were at it.

Mathematician · Jun 28, 2006

I was always liberal with my Christianity. When I started hitting puberty I questioned myself. For a few seasons I was an agnostic, until finally a few years ago I called myself an atheist.

I don't know if my path is done yet, though. I'm happy where I am, but maybe I can tick on another slash to my profile.

eudaimonia · Jun 28, 2006

Comet said:
When did you decide there was a God/gods, or none at all? What made you come to that conclusion: was it an ongoing process, something you've always known, or was there a specific moment that made up your mind?

It was an ongoing process, but I'd say it was around the age of 25 that I firmly decided that the reasons to believe in God (or any gods) were inadequate, and that was when I called myself an atheist for the first time. (I called myself an agnostic for some time previously.)

But the process probably began when I was quite young (perhaps seven) and working out the difference between reason and faith, and which to side with when there was a conflict between them. (I decided on reason. Yes, even at seven.)

eudaimonia,

Mark

BrandonE · Jun 28, 2006

Definitely a process. I consider myself pantheist (monist) now, though I'm pretty shaky on that still too. I was raised hard-line protestant. Hell always bothered me for the reasons Buttercup has mentioned, as well as some of the black-and-white moral/ethical positions where I saw grey. When I read Emerson in HS, the process of re-evaluating what I'd been taught started in earnest. I've never been totally a-theistic, but I was definitely quite unsure for a while. I'm still not totally sure.

James the Persian · Jun 28, 2006

Buttercup said:
Hell would make more sense if we each saw God standing before us in person, full of love and amazing glory. He asks us if we want to follow him and his ways while living on earth and promises after we die we get to live with him into infinity in a perfect utopian heaven. If we say "No, thanks" after this real and personal invitation, I can almost see him casting us into hell because it was our choice to do so with 100% proof of his existence.

That's actually not too far from the Orthodox idea of hell (though the meeting comes after death and it's we, not God, who do the casting).

As for when I knew, I can't think of a time when I didn't. Even when I was an atheist, intellectually speaking, it wasn't all that long before I started thinking something was missing and my search for what it was inevitably lead me into various religions. Even when I was a practicing Buddhist, I was one of the minority who takes Buddhism's agnosticism (I think characterising it as atheist is rather over the top) as a licence to believe in God if I so wished and did so - it wasn't exactly the Christian God that I now believe in, mind.

James

uumckk16 · Jun 28, 2006

I think I've always believed to a degree. I was raised in a family that just never spoke about religion, but I think some concept of God was always present in my mind. When I started really thinking about religion, just six or seven months ago, I realized I believed. Before that it was just kind of second nature, and not something I really thought about, but I think I always believed.

PolyHedral · Jun 28, 2006

As soon as I realized there was no reason for Him to exist.

Doktormartini · Jun 28, 2006

I'm an Atheist and don't remember when I actually just stopped believing but was awhile ago. Probably because I was born a Catholic and then my parents just stopped being religious, then I did too, but they still believe in a higher being. I have read stuff and searched and all that and found Atheism to be right for me.

Katzpur · Jun 28, 2006

Buttercup said:
The major teaching I am straying from in recent months is the idea of there being a "Hell" in any way shape or form. Just doesn't make sense to me that there would be a hell at all.

Hell would make more sense if we each saw God standing before us in person, full of love and amazing glory. He asks us if we want to follow him and his ways while living on earth and promises after we die we get to live with him into infinity in a perfect utopian heaven. If we say "No, thanks" after this real and personal invitation, I can almost see him casting us into hell because it was our choice to do so with 100% proof of his existence.

But, we don't get this 100% proof of his existence yet we are supposed to believe that we are cast into hell for all eternity because we don't choose to follow what many consider a myth? How is that fair? How can we be judged for our decision when we don't have absolute facts? We are to decide on something this important with no meeting with the Creator? No personal written instructions? We are expected to take the word of a book ONLY?

My rational mind struggles with this issue mightily. And it's a big one.

I'm :sorry1: , I just can't resist.

You have just explained why Mormons don't believe in the "traditional, mainstream Christian" concept of Hell. We believe that the only people who will end up in Hell are those who, like you say, chose to reject Him even though they had 100% proof of His existence. There aren't even very many people who have ever lived who would be in a position to do so. Anyway, I think you're definitely right that condemning non-believers to Hell just wouldn't be consistent with the actions of a loving, merciful Father in Heaven.

Buttercup · Jun 28, 2006

Katzpur said:
I'm :sorry1: , I just can't resist.

You have just explained why Mormons don't believe in the "traditional, mainstream Christian" concept of Hell. We believe that the only people who will end up in Hell are those who, like you say, chose to reject Him even though they had 100% proof of His existence. There aren't even very many people who have ever lived who would be in a position to do so. Anyway, I think you're definitely right that condemning non-believers to Hell just wouldn't be consistent with the actions of a loving, merciful Father in Heaven.

You said almost exactly what I thought you would come back and say Katzpur! Now, if I could just believe in who Joseph Smith was I could become an LDS huh?

Thanks for your imput.

Katzpur · Jun 28, 2006

Buttercup said:
You said almost exactly what I thought you would come back and say Katzpur!

I must be getting predictable in my old age!

mattp · Jun 29, 2006

Katzpur said:
I'm :sorry1: , I just can't resist.

You have just explained why Mormons don't believe in the "traditional, mainstream Christian" concept of Hell. We believe that the only people who will end up in Hell are those who, like you say, chose to reject Him even though they had 100% proof of His existence. There aren't even very many people who have ever lived who would be in a position to do so. Anyway, I think you're definitely right that condemning non-believers to Hell just wouldn't be consistent with the actions of a loving, merciful Father in Heaven.

the word hell mistranslated from the hebrew word sheol and the greek word hades, which both literally mean common burial ground. the idea that it is a place of eternal punishment comes froms certian scriptures that talk about eternal destruction. Isnt that an oxy moron? Can you be destroyed more than once? Of course not! A"god of love" would never be that cruel to one of his "children"

Littledragon · Jun 29, 2006

I've always believed in something, what took time was figuring out what I believed in instead of what I was told I believe.

Sweet water and Light laughter
Littledragon

scitsofreaky · Jun 29, 2006

Comet said:
When did you decide there was a God/gods, or none at all? What made you come to that conclusion: was it an ongoing process, something you've always known, or was there a specific moment that made up your mind?

I still haven't made up my mind, and I'm very happy with my (un)decision. I don't know, and I doubt I'm going to know, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about it.
And for no reason

unk:

painted wolf · Jun 29, 2006

I think that sort of thing is an ongoing process... one should never stop looking for truth... in either direction.

wa:do

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