The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

Milton Platt said:

It gets worse than that....Christianity has splintered into thousands of groups, each claiming a certain exclusivity.

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Thank you for your post

It all comes down to interpretation of scripture. Christianity as you rightly point out is so divided and has so many different understandings. One person or group understands the bible differently from another. One group insists that their way is the only way to see it. Then they start to see the other group as being misguided heretics, morally deficient, unreasonable, and spiritually blind. They start accusing the other of removing parts of the bible to suit themselves, to twist the words of God, and so it goes. We don't have bloodshed with masses of people dying in the name of Christianity like bygone ages but we have animosity and misunderstanding in the name of God. What loving and just God would expect a reasonable person to persist with such a religion let alone believe in Him?

"Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician." Baha'i writings

adrianhindes said:

No. It shows that I doubt if we can have a meaningful conversation about those verses.

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Why do you doubt that?
All I've tried to do is let Scripture interpret itself and then ask you what the Scriptural basis for your claims are.
This is, in fact, the Scriptural debate forum, so I'd expect you to be willing and eager to show why the Scripture proves your view correct. Instead, you don't seem to be able to answer the objections raised.

I've answered your original question though: What is the best way of looking at John 14:6?
It is simple: In the way which harmonizes everything else Jesus said, everything the apostles said, and everything the OT prophets said. That is , in fact, the only way to look at John 14:6 accurately.
Because if we start from the assumption that if God did speak and reveal Himself to them all then His message and revelation is going to be consistent with itself throughout history, from individual to individual.
If you cannot harmonize your view of John 14:6 with even the rest of the NT, let alone the rest of the OT, then you cannot claim to rightly interpret it's meaning.

You've got a lot of presumptions about what Scripture teaches that just don't hold up under closer scrutiny of the Scripture as a whole.

So you're left with either acceding to what the Scripture says when taken in it's whole context, or you're forced to start throw throwing out the parts of scripture that disagree with what you want it to say - The later is at the foundation of every Christian cult group. Because there are many things you simply cannot hold to being true if you believe all of Scripture is true. The only way to get around that is to start declaring only some of the Scripture is true.

adrianhindes said:

It all comes down to interpretation of scripture.

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It really comes down to whether or not you have standards for how Scripture is to be interpreted.

Anyone can make the Bible say anything they want if they are willing to take verses out of context, without need to harmonize it with the rest of what the Scripture says.
But you wouldn't treat any other document that way when trying to determine it's meaning and intent.

The real question is: are you willing to let John 14:6 be interpreted through what the rest of John says, what the rest of the NT says, and what the rest of the Bible says?
If you try to shove an outside viewpoint into the scripture (known as eisegesis), you'll inevitably find that your viewpoint is contradicted by what the scripture says.
Truth is determined by letting the Scripture speak for itself (known as exegesis).

Christianity as you rightly point out is so divided and has so many different understandings. One person or group understands the bible differently from another.

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Your appeal to divisions in Christianity only serves to highlight how far off you are from what the Bible really says: Because Christianity is united across denominations in understanding, through a reading of the Bible, that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

How do you explain that unity if the Bible is open to interpretation without standards?
If you think you have a better way of understanding what the Scripture says, I welcome you posting your scriptural support for it, and we'll see if it can hold up to the scrutiny of what Scripture actually says.

The only time you find a minority even rejecting Jesus as the only path to salvation and the Father is usually when you are dealing with people who actually reject the Bible's authority - as a result they also often reject a lot of other things that are foundational aspects of Scripture; like the deity of Christ, the second coming, the existence of hell, etc.

Other religions teach a different God, with different character and nature, with different purposes and plans, and different expectations.
You can't claim they are talking about the same God when their supposed revelation is not compatible with what God has already revealed through the Bible.
In many cases what they teach is directly opposed to what the Bible says is true.

Rise said:

Why do you doubt that?
All I've tried to do is let Scripture interpret itself and then ask you what the Scriptural basis for your claims are.

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I believe when two people argue about religion they are both wrong. In your posts you have increasingly resorted to personal attacks. I think you need to debate the issues with courtesy and respect.

In regards to scripture you have simply done everything you have accused me of. You certainly haven't let scripture speak for itself.

Rise said:

This is, in fact, the Scriptural debate forum, so I'd expect you to be willing and eager to show why the Scripture proves your view correct. Instead, you don't seem to be able to answer the objections raised.

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If you look back at my posts I have consistently referred to scripture directly or indirectly. Proper discussion of scripture in this setting requires reasoned arguments as well as an appreciation that others that think differently for you have their truth too.

I am completely comfortable with the bible in its entirety and some of the issues you raised outside the question of John 14:6 can easily be countered using both scripture and reason. If I thought we could have a constructive debate about them I certainly would.

Best Wishes and thank you for contributing to this thread.

adrianhindes said:

I believe when two people argue about religion they are both wrong.

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Positive definition of argue:
give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.

You came to the wrong forum (Scriptural Debate) if you wanted to discuss what the scripture says without the need to give any reasons or cite evidence to support your viewpoint of Scripture.

If you look back at my posts I have consistently referred to scripture directly or indirectly. Proper discussion of scripture in this setting requires reasoned arguments as well as an appreciation that others that think differently for you have their truth too.

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To which I responded to your scripture by providing more scripture and reasoned arguments to demonstrate why you weren't providing a full view of the Bible's context, as it is proper to do.

I am not saying you aren't entitled to express your opinion: I'm just showing why your opinion conflicts with a plain and reasoned reading of Scripture and a proper understanding of it's context.

The error in your thinking appears to be that you think salvation and the way to the Father is a murky enough issue in the Scripture that you are free to take whatever opinion you want on it without expecting to be challenged on it, assuming incorrectly that my view cannot be proven to be any more true than your view.
However, there are a lot of things that are so clear in scripture that they are not subject to much interpretation, and the way of salvation coming through the one and only true God, as revealed by Jesus, is one of those things.

In your posts you have increasingly resorted to personal attacks. I think you need to debate the issues with courtesy and respect.

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I had no intention of personally attacking you, and don't believe I did. Can you point to where you think I did?

I should also point out, I could have chosen to get offended at this comment of yours, but instead chose to ignore it and focus on the substance of the arguments you were trying to present:

If you really knew your bible you would appreciate that's its a book of change.

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Implying I don't know the Bible, while refusing to back up your claims with the Bible, is kind of ironic considering I appear to be the only one between us who is concerned with whether or not what I say can be proven based on what the Bible says.

I am completely comfortable with the bible in its entirety and some of the issues you raised outside the question of John 14:6 can easily be countered using both scripture and reason. If I thought we could have a constructive debate about them I certainly would.

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It's easy to claim your view of Scripture is consistent with the whole Bible, but it's quite another task to be able to prove it and defend your position against contradictions or errors that other people point out. So far it has not been that difficult to disprove your claims by looking at the rest of what Scripture says.

I would enjoy being able to see more of what your thought process is, what Scriptures you are using to come to your conclusions, and see how you are able to deal with the Scriptures I present in turn - but whether or not you are up to that is of course your choice. But in the future, you should try not to get offended when people expect you to back up your claims about Scripture with Scripture, and don't expect people to take for granted that what you say about Scripture is true if you aren't willing to prove it through Scripture.

Rise said:

would enjoy being able to see more of what your thought process is, what Scriptures you are using to come to your conclusions, and see how you are able to deal with the Scriptures I present in turn - but whether or not you are up to that is of course your choice. But in the future, you should try not to get offended when people expect you to back up your claims about Scripture with Scripture, and don't expect people to take for granted that what you say about Scripture is true if you aren't willing to prove it through Scripture.

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I avoid both giving offence and taking offence. I'm not offended. What I see very clearly from your posts is that because I hold a different point of view in the bible we both believe in, you made assumptions about my approach to the bible and knowledge of the bible that are incorrect.

In addition to recognising the entire bible as being inspired by God we need two other criteria for meaningful discussion:

(1) Mutual courtesy and respect

(2) The capacity for sound reasoning

Regards to point (1), if you are willing to drop the holier than thou attitude, I'm will to debate the issues.

Regarding point (2) if you can answer a few questions as I have answered quite few of yours, then its possible we could make progress.

(a) The world literally created in 7 days as recorded in genesis: literal, allegorical or both? Please explain your reasons.

(b) The story of Noah's ark: same questions as above.

(c) Explain the following verse from Isaiah 13:10 that Jesus refers to on the Olivet discourse:
"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."

Thank you

Rise said:

That's not just an OT concept. I can pull up the NT verses that all fit this concept if you need it, but here's some to get you started:
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 13:36-43
Matthew 10:28
Mark 9:43
John 3:18
John 8:51
John 6:35-37
John 5:28-29
John 15:1-6

The reason you find it in both the OT and NT is because God is consistent throughout history. He doesn't change and He doesn't lie. Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19.

I gave many scriptures from the Bible that show why it is exclusive in the sense of there being a narrow way to reunion with God.
If you think that's a wrong conclusion about what Scripture says, then you're going to need to use Scripture to prove it.

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So lets examine some of these NT scriptures you believe show the literal exclusivity of the Christianity.

Matthew 25:31-46
This refers to the Return of the Christ (Christos) or the Messiah. He judges between the sheep and the goats. The judgement is based on the qualities of good character expressed through helping those in need. At no stage in these verses is faith in Jesus a condition of a positive judgement (being numbered with the sheep)

Matthew 13:36-43
Son of man is a designation given to the perfect reflection of the Divine Teachings and Virtues of God through Jesus. Another designation is 'Son of God'. The other perfect manifestations of God such as Moses, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah have similar designations such as 'friend of God', 'Seal of the Prophets', and 'Glory of God'. These are designations that indicate the uniqueness and greatness of ALL the manifestations of God. Those whose lives are founded on such teachings will be the recipient of Gods boundless Grace and favour. Those that turn away will suffer the anguish and pain of separation from God.

Matthew 10:28
Means fear and respect God. He who turns away from righteousness risks separation from God.

I could go on but I think I've made the point. None of the verses you have provided convince me of the exclusivity of Christianity. They all support Christianitys' inclusiveness, as we should expect because it is a Faith revealed by a Loving and Just God.

adrianhindes said:

What I see very clearly from your posts is that because I hold a different point of view in the bible we both believe in, you made assumptions about my approach to the bible and knowledge of the bible that are incorrect.

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I made a point to not just make assumptions. I posed questions that would help me make sure I wasn't misassuming what you believed. Questions you seemed to mostly avoid answering.

I avoid both giving offence and taking offence. I'm not offended.

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Regards to point (1), if you are willing to drop the holier than thou attitude, I'm will to debate the issues.

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You're doing a pretty good job of being offended right now, to stop trying to discuss scripture interpretation over your perception of how I'm talking to you.

If you can point to an instance where I said something I shouldn't then I, again, welcome your input – but speaking confidently about what the Bible says, and challenging you to back up what you claim, doesn't mean I am trying to talk down to you. You're reading something into my posts that isn't there.

You might not like the fact that I'm pointing out the logical and scriptural inconsistencies of your arguments, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to attack you or talk down to you.
I'm honestly trying to engage with the Scripture to point out where your position doesn't hold up. And I am genuinely interested in seeing how you think you can defend your position in a way that is consistent with all of Scripture.

(2) The capacity for sound reasoning

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Regarding point (2) if you can answer a few questions as I have answered quite few of yours, then its possible we could make progress.

(a) The world literally created in 7 days as recorded in genesis: literal, allegorical or both? Please explain your reasons.

(b) The story of Noah's ark: same questions as above.

(c) Explain the following verse from Isaiah 13:10 that Jesus refers to on the Olivet discourse:

"For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine."

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I have an even better idea, since we are on the topic of sound reasoning: Rather than get derailed into debating three entirely different issues, how about we go back a couple pages and you explain why some of your statements about the Bible's content is not completely unreasonable and unsound – because you appear to have made several claims (and you are free to correct me if I've misinterpreted your vague statements) which are completely unreasonable and unsound based on even a simple reading of the Bible's content:

1. The idea that Christ represents a different path to salvation than the Jews have.

2. The idea that Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism all offer equally valid paths to the kind of salvation the one true God offers.

You claim you want to avoid personal attacks, but here you are accusing someone of not being capable of sound reasoning, while at the same time being unwilling to demonstrate why what they have said would be unsound reasoning.
The truth is, when you've demonstrated such basic misunderstandings of Scripture, you are in no position to be judging anyone on their ability to reason sound interpretations of Scripture.

I have no problem demonstrating why your reading of scripture is unreasonable and unsound based on a comprehensive exegesis of Scripture; I'll tell you why it's wrong, and back it up with data and logic. I won't just accuse you of being unreasonable and walk away.

In turn, if my exegesis of Scripture were truly onsound and unreasonable, then it would be easy for you to logically and textually demonstrate why. You wouldn't need to just accuse people of having unsound exegesis - but you'd be able to prove it.


Now, there's a lot of things I already posted that get in the way of your claims about scripture, which you haven't yet responded to, but I can offer up a basic scriptural overview of why your logic doesn't hold up (and these verses are only scratching the surface):

Isaiah 44:6
Isaiah 43:10-11
Deuteronomy 4:35-39
Deuteronomy 6:4
Deuteronomy 32:39
1 Kings 8:60
1 Chronicles 17:20
Nehemiah 9:6
Psalms 86:10
Zechariah 14:9
Ephesians 4:6
1 Timothy 2:5
James 2:19
Jeremiah 10:11-12
There is only one God, one creator, one ruler of all (Lord).


Isaiah 45:17
Isaiah 43:10-11
Isaiah 33:22
Isaiah 12:2
Isaiah 17:10
Psalms 3:8
Psalms 34:22
Psalms 68:19
Isaiah 44:22
Psalms 25:5
Psalms 79:9
Micah 7:7
Job 25-29
Salvation came to the Jews only through the one true God.


Hosea 13:4
Isaiah 43:10-11
Isaiah 45:21
There is no other savior but the one true God.


Isaiah 44:6-8
Revelation 1:17-18
Revelation 2:8
John 1:18
1 Corinthians 8:6
John 20:27-28
2 Peter 1:1
John 10:30
Acts of the Apostles 20:28
John 1:1
John 1:3
Colossians 1:16-17
John 1:14
John 8:57-58
Colossians 2:9-10
Jesus is God in the flesh, Lord, Creator, and Messiah.


Isaiah 49:6
Acts of the Apostles 13:47
Acts of the Apostles 13:23-27
John 17:3
Romans 1:16
The messiah will restore the people of Israel to God.
He will also bring God's salvation to the gentiles.
Jesus, Messiah, is the promised salvation of Israel.
The Jews are included in needing that salvation from God, through Messiah.


Isaiah 43:10-11
Acts of the Apostles 4:12
Acts of the Apostles 2:21
Romans 10:13
Romans 3:22-24
There is no other name by which mankind can be saved. You must call on the name of the Lord to be saved.


Matthew 7:13-14
John 10:9
1 Timothy 2:5
The way is narrow.
There is only one gate to salvation.


Galatians 3:6-19
Romans 3:30
Abraham, and the Jews, were saved the same way gentiles today are: By faith in the one true God.


John 4:19-26
Matthew 7:22-23
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Not everyone who thinks they are worshipping, serving, or believing in the one true God actually are.


1 Kings 18:21
Matthew 6:24
You can't serve God and idols at the same time.


Deuteronomy 12:28-31
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
Ezekiel 8:7-18
You are not to worship God the way false religions do and claim you are doing it for God.



So, having laid that foundation of what the Bible says, it becomes clear how unsound your position is to claim that the Jews have a different path of salvation than gentiles.

It further shows how unreasoned and illogical your position is to suggest that the other three major religions have their own path of salvation. Illogical because on a very basic level all these other religions aren't teaching the same way to God, and often are teaching things about God that are completely contradictory to everything found in the Bible about God (so they really aren't teaching about the one true God at all, but a false idol). In many cases they teach you to do things that directly go against what God said you must do in the Bible. The Bible makes it clear there is one God and one path to God, with a separation being made between those who follow that way and those who don't.

It would be the height of unsound reasoning to try to conclude that all paths lead to God when God has clearly spelled out a very specific and exclusive path in the Bible. Either the Bible is wrong or right, but not everything else can be right unless the Bible is wrong. If the Bible is right, nothing else can said to be right unless it lines up and is consistent with the Bible. You can't reasonably have it both ways.

Rise said:

I made a point to not just make assumptions. I posed questions that would help me make sure I wasn't misassuming what you believed. Questions you seemed to mostly avoid answering.

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I was a Christian many years before becoming a Baha'i. I continue to work closely with Christians. I run a bible study group. The usual approach in my experience if someone wants to discuss the bible is to assume they believe in the bible in its entirety. Here's what you have done:

Post #189
I think a question I would have to pose to you at this point is:
Do you think everything the Bible says about God and His relations to man is true, or do you feel comfortable throwing out the parts that you feel don't conform to your preconceptions about what God should do in order to be considered loving and just?
I think we need to establish that underlying assumption before we can discuss what the Bible actually says.
Now, it's one thing to say you don't believe what the Bible says, but it's quite another to try to claim the Bible actually supports what you believe while at the same time rejecting most of what it says just because you disagree with it.

Post #190 Of course. I am a Baha'i. I believe in the same God, Jesus, and Gospels as you do.

The authority and authenticity of the various books that make up the New and Old testament need to be a starting point for our discussions.


Post #196 Do you believe in any Biblical scripture besides the Gospels? The prophets? The letters of the apostles? The book of Acts?

I'm not sure that really answers my question, because it doesn't really define how you approach the authority of Scripture.
Do you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't believe are true?
Is it only authoritative, in your view, if you think you can "re-interpret" it to conform to what you already believe to be true?
What do you do with the parts of scripture you can't make conform to your beliefs? Do you change your beliefs to line up with the Bible, or do you declare the Bible to be untrue?

At this point it has become abundantly clear that you are not actually reading what I'm writing. You response is astounding. It is as if I had not responded at all. So I respond

I doubt if we are getting any closer to understanding each other. I'm losing confidence we will.
Do you believe in any Biblical scripture besides the Gospels? The prophets? The letters of the apostles? The book of Acts?
Of course
I'm not sure that really answers my question, because it doesn't really define how you approach the authority of Scripture.
I accept the authority and authenticity of the Bible. Maybe you should reflect on the meaning of the words authority and authenticity. Can I be any clearer?
Do you throw out sections of the Bible that you don't believe are true?
Of course not, do you?
Is it only authoritative, in your view, if you think you can "re-interpret" it to conform to what you already believe to be true?
What do you do with the parts of scripture you can't make conform to your beliefs? Do you change your beliefs to line up with the Bible, or do you declare the Bible to be untrue?
This is why I'm losing any hope of a reasoned conversation with you. You seem to be wilfully misunderstanding what I'm saying.


Post #198 Understand, I'm not accusing you of throwing out parts of the Bible, I'm simply asking you to clarify your position so I know where you're coming from.

Well, you strongly suggested that I might. It was unnecessarily to ask the question in the first place IMHO. And then you started asking another series of questions about how I might be interpreting the bible.

I have quite rightly questioned whether this is likely to be a particularly meaningfully conversation.

Rise said:

You're doing a pretty good job of being offended right now, to stop trying to discuss scripture interpretation over your perception of how I'm talking to you.

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So the next assumption is that I'm offended. I've told you I'm not but you just don't seem to be able to let it go. Its the whole unnecessary conversation that we had about accepting the bible all over again.

The other matter now is that I have answered many of your questions and you are not prepared to answer any of mine.

Why would I want to continue this conversation?

Rise said:

Jesus is God in the flesh, Lord, Creator, and Messiah.

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So you claim Jesus is physically God incarnate? Lets examine this.

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6
"These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God."

So Moses is to the Jews what Jesus has become to the Christians. Although the language is different Moses was the salvation for the Hebrew people, both physically and spiritually.

I've already explained about the salvation of the Jews quoting from scripture but doubt if you properly read what I to say.

I've already explained about other Shepherds that are completely outside the world of Jews whom Jesus taught.

As it is agreed that God is both loving and just then the burden of proof falls to you to justify that he is cruel and injustice in accordance with the exclusive view of Christianity that many of your brethren have long ago discounted. All the scripture you have provided can easily be shown to mean that Christianity is inclusive and our God is loving and just. I've done that with the first three verses you provided.

It does not matter how many people believe in what. It comes down to what Jesus really taught. He was a highly skilled communicator but spoke in a way that only the pure in heart would understand.
For example with parables:

Mathew 13:10-17
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them."

Best Wishes

adrianhindes said:

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality
Is their reasonable justification for Christians' claims that only their faith can save? Is there a better way of understanding salvation?

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Ah ha!
You....... again!
You seem to wander about with a pointy stick, tweeking this and prodding that, asking devious (?) questions so that you can at any 'right' moment produce (Fanfare! Fanfare!) the answers!

Of course Christians believe that their way is the true and only way.
Mostly every religion, faith, cult and following believes that it is the only way, why else bother believing in same?

How irritated would any feel if their own beloved path was picked up and prodded, once a week, continuously, possibly as some kind of devious reverse evangelism which could lead the world to the doorstep of their way?

And..... no, nobody has set out on this forum to pin-prick yours.

...... but we could!

oldbadger said:

Ah ha!
You....... again!
You seem to wander about with a pointy stick, tweeking this and prodding that, asking devious (?) questions so that you can at any 'right' moment produce (Fanfare! Fanfare!) the answers!

Of course Christians believe that their way is the true and only way.
Mostly every religion, faith, cult and following believes that it is the only way, why else bother believing in same?

How irritated would any feel if their own beloved path was picked up and prodded, once a week, continuously, possibly as some kind of devious reverse evangelism which could lead the world to the doorstep of their way?

And..... no, nobody has set out on this forum to pin-prick yours.

...... but we could!

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Yes, busted

It certainly is enormously satisfying turning Christian fundamentalism on its head. Examining core beliefs based on scripture, finding them wanting, and lo and behold...a better way!

Christianity has been around long enough and sadly lost its capacity to adapt to the modern world. Its been an easy starting point on this forum.

I am starting more explicitly Baha'i threads and testing the waters. If my beloved path really does have something to offer the world then it should be easy. As a modern religion that has been born out of the fiercest persecution from the Persians and Ottomans it should withstand the onslaught of anyone who wishes to oppose.

I've realised one of the greatest strengths of the Baha'i Faith is that most of the main principals are already widely accepted. So its is those such as yourself who are better promoters of the Baha'i teachings than I ever will be.

Bring it on. That's all I can say

Best Wishes

adrianhindes said:

Yes, busted
It certainly is enormously satisfying turning Christian fundamentalism on its head................

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After me!
Christian Fundies can be very very bad bunnies.
There's a web site that harbours a whole nest of 'em, and they run threads about how they would like to execute gays as slowly and painfully as possible, etc. all based upon didley zilch ................
It's actually like a medal to get infractions there!
But you're not talking to many of those here.

Christianity has been around long enough and sadly lost its capacity to adapt to the modern world. Its been an easy starting point on this forum.

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Go easy there......... Western political fashions have started to leave even your faith behind, imo.

I am starting more explicitly Baha'i threads and testing the waters. If my beloved path really does have something to offer the world then it should be easy. As a modern religion that has been born out of the fiercest persecution from the Persians and Ottomans it should withstand the onslaught of anyone who wishes to oppose.

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The pen is mightier than the sword.
Now, there would be no opposition if your faith could flex and change to modern humanities, but, just like your point about Christianity, it cannot.

I've realised one of the greatest strengths of the Baha'i Faith is that most of the main principals are already widely accepted.

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..... so why would it be needed?

So its is those such as yourself who are better promoters of the Baha'i teachings than I ever will be.

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Yes...... that might actually be true.
I am most fond of Bahauallah's writings, can still remember tracts...... never to be forgotten.
I love much about Bahauallah's writings, but then I love Kahlil Gibran's even more, and Omar Khayyam's still more.

Bring it on. That's all I can say

Best Wishes

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That's just the point.......... nobody here has. Tens of Thousands of members and nobody has initiated a thread deliberately aimed at damaging your faith.

But grand claims may well get questioned, very very hard.

Most Bahai Threads have stayed safe within Bahai DIRs in the past. That might be a good idea? Nobody can wrattle your threads hard there.

....just sayin'.............

adrianhindes said:

Some Christians belief that there is only one way to God and that is through Jesus.

This could mean only Christians make it to heaven and people of all other faiths are destined for hell.

One of the most commonly quoted passages from the bible to justify this view is: John 14:6

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

What's the best way of looking at this passage?

Is their reasonable justification for Christians' claims that only their faith can save? Is there a better way of understanding salvation?

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In response to the thread in general I offer a third option.

The bible is partly true but Yahweh is a liar, and manipulates the story for his own purposes.

Just some food for thought.

oldbadger said:

Go easy there......... Western political fashions have started to leave even your faith behind, imo.

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The whole discourse on LBGT? Abortion? General liberalism? anything else?

oldbadger said:

..... so why would it be needed?

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At some point it helps to connect with the source

oldbadger said:

I love much about Bahauallah's writings, but then I love Kahlil Gibran's even more, and Omar Khayyam's still more.

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I do like Kahlil Gibran too. Hadn't heard of Omar K. Is your wife a Baha'i?

oldbadger said:

That's just the point.......... nobody here has. Tens of Thousands of members and nobody has initiated a thread deliberately aimed at damaging your faith.

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I suspect there are bigger fish to fry. The Muslims and Christians not to mention all the political happenings. I'm here to have positive conversations with people, learn, and share my faith. I'm not looking for arguments or fights with anybody. The Baha'i Faith either stands because it is from God or it doesn't. I'm good with that

Electus de Lumine said:

In response to the thread in general I offer a third option.

The bible is partly true but Yahweh is a liar, and manipulates the story for his own purposes.

Just some food for thought.

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Its an interesting idea. God the great Cosmic Joker and Deviant.
Really testing us to see through His web of deceit or better still hope we will fall for it and prevent the true hero Lucifer from freeing us all.

adrianhindes said:

The whole discourse on LBGT? Abortion? General liberalism? anything else?

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Wow! Voting would be exclusive to Bahais (in a Bahai World-IABW). Gender Issues. A failure (IABW)to face world economics issues, as in : We'd leave all that to experts.)........ Oh, look, I'm not srtting off to look all this stuff up for you...... any that you don't know about you need to research for self.

At some point it helps to connect with the source

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Yeah....... we are infallible. We are guided by God. We cannot err. If our government says up is down, then so be it. Have you read that in the writings? Do you intend me to look it all up?

I do like Kahlil Gibran too. Hadn't heard of Omar K. Is your wife a Baha'i?

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Bahais (early 70's) used to claim that Kahlil was 'bahai-inspired' but his 'Prophet' doesn't align with that, nor did he ever say so. Yes...... Rabbi Lionel Blue once said that there had been 9000 prophets so far, in which case Kahlil was surely one of 'em.
Omar Khayyam wrote the original Rubaiyat, quite amazing translation by Edward Fitzgerald, and my 'take' on it is that Omar's message was 'Live for the moment, grab the joys of life and live it before you are dust.' ..... so whilst his message won't appeal to those with a vocation the work has such a power in its individual verses as to be remembered for life.
My 1st wife (b1949-d1991) was a Bahai, 1970-1991.

......................... I'm not looking for arguments or fights with anybody. The Baha'i Faith either stands because it is from God or it doesn't. I'm good with that

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No?
Well, you know, earlier you wrote:-

It certainly is enormously satisfying turning Christian fundamentalism on its head. Examining core beliefs based on scripture, finding them wanting, and lo and behold...a better way!

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You might find that this kind of approach will attract some contention!

I tell you what, no insult intended, as a research in evangelism you might source and read any threads that have been initiated by Jehovah's Witnesses and Watchtower followers......,, if you can find a single post from a JW that knocks any other religion, faith or creed just let me know and I promise that I'll run up and down our road in me undies..... can't promise nakedness 'cos that's probably breaking RF rules, provocation an' all. And you know you can trust me 'cos I'm an elder of the Studd Hill Moonlight Frolickers and we NEVER lie!

David1967 said:

Not to seem difficult, but can you give me some scriptural evidence that it was the pre incarnate Jesus who wrestled with Jacob? Thanks

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I beleive you do not understand the Trinity. Jesus does not exist without the flesh. That which

David1967 said:

Here you go Carlita;
1 Timothy 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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I believe if a mediator were just a man then he would not have enough knowledge of God to reveal the Father to anyone. It is because God is in Jesus that we hear what God says through Jesus.

Kemosloby said:

Christ was present there with the Israelites, the God of the Israelites

1 cor 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Nobody has ever seen the Father

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

It seems logical enough that it was Christ who wrestled with Jacob, and who spoke to Moses from the burning bush, and gave his commandments in the mountain. And who said you are gods.

John 10:34 Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

Psalm 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

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I believe that spirit is the one that is in Jesus ie the Spirit of God. Jesus does not precede the Spirit. The Spirit precedes Jesus.

I believe it is illogical because the body of Jesus did not exist. If you say there is another spirit in Jesus that is not the spirit of God then Jesus has no authority because He is just a man and not God.

Muffled said:

I believe that spirit is the one that is in Jesus ie the Spirit of God. Jesus does not precede the Spirit. The Spirit precedes Jesus.

I believe it is illogical because the body of Jesus did not exist. If you say there is another spirit in Jesus that is not the spirit of God then Jesus has no authority because He is just a man and not God.

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The spirit was Jesus, preincarnate. 1 cor 10