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A Challenge To All Creationists

gnostic

The Lost One
What about the one after he met Jesus?
It doesn't make the authors "eyewitnesses".

How could it be eyewitness account, of Jesus' birth, in 6 BCE, when the gospel of Matthew wasn't written until 70 CE at the earliest or 95 CE at the latest.

The word "eyewitness" mean actually seeing Mary getting pregnant, seeing Jesus being born, seeing Herod give the order to have boys as old as 2 being murdered in Bethlehem. Do you get the picture?

Whoever was this author, it certainly dubious to actually think it was the apostle Matthew, when the original gospel, the author was never named.

Clearly, the author of this gospel, made up the story of virgin birth.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I didn't originally inject it.



I was not the firsst to bring it into the discussion.



I couldn't care less why you dislike creationist. The evolutionist resort to full unproven opinions and call them evidence. You always use strawman post because you have no evidence and changing he subject is your only response.



Why tell me, I didn't change the subect and i answered his original question.



Not on the say so of some one who does not understand even basic genetics.



What you have just said, is made up, from your extreemly biased opinion.



I am never evasive, you just have an understanding problem



Here a good example of your lack of understanding or a lack of an 8th graded reading comprehension level.l I have same many times, there is no scientific evidence that God created the universe. I ALWAYS say it is the most logical explanation.

I have ask you evos several times to the evidence that mutations are the mechanism for a change of species. So far not one has offered an explanation of how. Makes me wonder if the truth finally dawned on them---mutations ARE NOT a mechanism for a change of species.

Would like to explain how they are or run away like the other have?
Are you illiterate, omega2xx?

I have told you that skwim specified that the creationists should try to provide evidences for creationism (god and creation) without using evolution. That his specification.

He didn't ask for evidences for or against evolution.

You are trying to deflect this thread about creationists and their creationism to about evolution, so you are trying to change the subject.

The only person with reading difficulties is you, omega2xx.

Skwim started this thread as a challenge for creationists, not to use "evolution", but to convince us (non-creationists) with evidences for creationism.


MAKE A CONVINCING CASE* FOR CREATIONISM WITHOUT REFERENCING EVOLUTION.

* As in, convince the non-creationist.




That's all :) folks​


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Do you not see, omega2xx?

Stop trying to change the subject.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
The consensus of Biblical scholarship and textual criticism disagrees with you.

Only by liberal theologians who reject most of the Bible as not being God inspired. Conservative theologians accept the whole Bible just as it is.

f these are eyewitness accounts, please explain why they are written in the third person.

When Matthew said, "Jesus walked on water" that is not third person.

By the way, they're all actually anonymous.

Basically true, but irrelevant. God inspired them what to write.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
So what...

Look, omega2xx.

I didn't accept evolution, nor reject it, because I have never study it biology in any great depth for the first 37 years of my life. I simply had no opinion on evolution.

I was actually a believer of the bible from age 15 to 34, even though I never join any church, nor did I get "baptised". I nearly was baptised in my sister's church at 16, and almost join a different church at 19. A fight with my pastor, made me not bother to find another the church.

I did stop reading the bible the bible in 1986 (age 20), because I was too busy with my studies, and didn't touch the bible until 2000, but I was still believer in the bible during my period of limbo (1986 - 1999).

But when I did touch the bible again, at 34 (2000), my perspective had changed, and I had become "agnostic".

I didn't become agnostic because of the issues between evolution and creationism. No, I became agnostic because I understood the bible better than when I was a teenager.

Re-reading the bible, I recognised the errors and inconsistencies of the bible, and it had nothing to do with evolution.

I didn't understand evolution until 3 years later (2003), when I join my first forum, (not RF, it was another forum) when I came across debates between creationism and evolution. I didn't know anything about evolution, and wasn't aware of contention between the 2 sides.

So being curious about what the fuss was about, I borrowed my cousin's old biology textbook, read up on biology, including evolution.

I only became active in forum debates between the two sides, only when I have understood natural selection.

I don't have opinion or get into argument, unless I understand what I arguing about.

It doesn't make me a biologist, nor an expert in evolution, because I was never educated and qualified, but at least now I have better understanding on the subject.

I already understood creation and Genesis, but I was never a creationist. But I do find people who believe in creationism to be silly, because it isn't science.

No one is claiming creation is science.

I am claiming evolution is also not science. In fact that biology book you read did not offer any evidence that natural selection is a mechanism for a change of species. They just said it is and you believed them.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
It doesn't make the authors "eyewitnesses".

How could it be eyewitness account, of Jesus' birth, in 6 BCE, when the gospel of Matthew wasn't written until 70 CE at the earliest or 95 CE at the latest.

The word "eyewitness" mean actually seeing Mary getting pregnant, seeing Jesus being born, seeing Herod give the order to have boys as old as 2 being murdered in Bethlehem. Do you get the picture?

Whoever was this author, it certainly dubious to actually think it was the apostle Matthew, when the original gospel, the author was never named.

Clearly, the author of this gospel, made up the story of virgin birth.

Are you really suggesting that someone can't write about what he says 10 years after the event?

How do you know the story of the virgin birth is made u p?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Only by liberal theologians who reject most of the Bible as not being God inspired. Conservative theologians accept the whole Bible just as it is.
No, by pretty much anyone with any credibility in the field - Christians included.

When Matthew said, "Jesus walked on water" that is not third person.
Um, yes it is.
Basically true, but irrelevant. God inspired them what to write.
So you claim.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No one is claiming creation is science.

I am claiming evolution is also not science. In fact that biology book you read did not offer any evidence that natural selection is a mechanism for a change of species. They just said it is and you believed them.
Then you're just wrong.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Are you really suggesting that someone can't write about what he says 10 years after the event?
It is not 10 years.

With the the gospel of Matthew, it is more like 35 years or more, after Jesus' crucifixion.

And it is even longer than that, concerning Jesus' birth. I hardly think that the author was around at this time to be an "eyewitness", only to write the gospel some 76 or mor years later about the virgin birth.

You clearly stated that they (all 4 gospels) were eyewitness accounts. And I don't see how the authors can be at several places at once, like one with Mary and joseph (fleeing in exile), at the same being with Herod and with the magi.

Plus, the gospel of Luke tell of different origin story to the Matthew gospel.

And let's not forget that both included Jesus' supposed family trees, which are different between Joseph and David. I think both were invented.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No one is claiming creation is science.

I am claiming evolution is also not science. In fact that biology book you read did not offer any evidence that natural selection is a mechanism for a change of species. They just said it is and you believed them.
I am well aware of your ignorance on the subject.

You have already demonstrated that you have no interested in examining any evidence whatsoever.

I have already shared with you evidences, such as the polar bears and brown bears scenario.

Your reply clearly demonstrate you don't understand Natural Selection, you don't understand speciation, and you don't even understand basic genetics.

I gave you example of two extant species, but you ignore it, because it doesn't fit in with deluded fairytale that species must make something completely different.

Speciation doesn't say it will make creature from a completely different orders.

The absurdity I get from most creationists is they want to see evidences of dog species producing cat species. That's never going to happen and that's not the way evolution works, because they are clearly not understanding evolution.

The changes are always going to be small. But the further back in time (I am not talking about "time", as in hours or years, but as in number of generations), the more noticeable changes.

The difference is in the the fur and the amount of body fat, as well as some of bone features, that make polar bears different from the brown bears, which are better suited for survival in the icy regions of the polar cap.

The hairs are close together in the polar bears, so it is more waterproof than the fur of brown bears. The same texture and thicknesses of the fur also allowed the bear also insulated better than brown bear from the cold.

The body fat contents of the polar bear also insulated them the cold, more effectively than the brown bears. So both fur and fat, allow polar bears to swim in the icy sea, as well as allow them hunt, while brown bears usually hibernate during the colder seasons.

These are evidences that the polar bears to live and thrive in the frozen wasteland.

The brown bears and polar bears are of different species, but still close enough related that they can breed with each other, but this don't happen so often because polar bears don't strayed so far from their region, and brown bears don't frequently go that far north.

The mechanisms come from polar bears breeding with their own species, because they obviously instinctively know that breeding with mates that shared common characteristics, will give their offspring better chance to surviving in their region.

Again, I did provide an example of natural selection and speciation.

You, on the other hand, have not provided any evidence for creator being responsible for creation...which is the reason for this thread.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Then with all of your great omniscience, tell me how the universe came into being.
What does life on earth have to do with the universe?

Why do keep asking me to jump from one subject, to a completely different subject?

And beside that, you are still not providing a single evidence for creationism.

Why should I give you more examples, when you provide none in retrurn?

And this thread is about creationists providing evidences for creationism, or at the very least a logical explanation to creationism. You haven't done that.

And btw, "god did it" or "god can do anything or everything" or "god is powerful", or the "bible is an eyewitness account", are not explanations, let alone evidences.

They are simply your personal belief, which is really no different from unsubstantiated opinion.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Just what is the creation model on which the evidences and predictions are based?


Your information is out of date, which I assume you got from AiG, ICR or the like. The explosion/radiation has just about fizzled out.

As has been explained by others; more and more fossil evidence has accumulated of Precambrian Metazoa, such as Ediacaran Kimberella which appears to be an early form of mollusc, along with the jelly-fish like cnidarians, and trace fossils of other Precambrian Ediacaran animals that have come to light in the last twenty years or so. Moreover, the evolutionary radiation of animals doesn't appear to be all that abrupt. Most of the abrupt appearance of animals was limited to the bottom and sediment dwelling organisms, while those phyla occupying the open seas came about much later. All in all it's beginning to look like the Cambrian explosion wasn't much of an explosion at all, but rather a series of smooth evolutionary changes in organisms that occurred during the period. In fact, statistical analysis has shown that the Cambrian "explosion" wasn't any faster than any of the other animal radiations in history.

As noted in a paper in Integrative & Comparative Biology, V-43 I-1 "Taking the Pulse of the Cambrian Radiation" by Bruce Lieberman:

". . .rates of evolution during the Cambrian radiation, at least those pertaining to speciation, were comparable to those that have occurred during other times of adaptive or taxic radiation throughout the history of life."
source

And if you were at all familiar with fossilization processes it would be apparent why there's a scarcity of transitional forms, particularly that long ago, which gave the appearance of an "explosion." Of course scientists were well aware of this, so when they coined the word "explosion" it wasn't with the notion of species coming out of the blue in mind, as some creationist would like to believe. .


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So, show us the evidence of similar body structures in the Precambrian strata, effecting a reasonable order of descent, ok? (I mean, "scarcity of transitional fossils" still implies 'a few' were found, right?) The Chengjiang lagerstätten and Burgess Shale, where Cambrian organisms are found, preserved even the softer appendages on these hard-bodied creatures. So that really shouldn't be a problem, locating the ancestors to the many first-appearing Phyla.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
No, it supposedly began 540 million years ago, it might have lasted maybe 20 million years. A geological 'blink of an eye.'

Have a good day.
Oh. Yeah. You're right. I stand corrected.

Still. Considering that the last extinction event was only 60 million years ago, and from that one most of the mammalia evolved. So I don't think "evolutionists" consider it as much as a "blink of an eye" as you suggest.

Also, essentially all species that evolved during the cambrian are gone, while all other 99.9999% evolved long after. I wonder how that fits into creationism? Why did God create a large number of species that then disappeared before the current species came to the scene? What was the purpose of killing them all off?

--edit

And how does 20 million years of creating these species 500 million years ago prove creationism? Could you explain what it is that makes it evidence for creation? If God only needs one day or a week, why did it take 20 million years for these species that don't exist anymore, and why do it 500 million years ago? I'm not sure I understand your view of creation. Are you an Old Earth Creationist?
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Are you really suggesting that someone can't write about what he says 10 years after the event?

How do you know the story of the virgin birth is made u p?
It is made up as Zeus siring Heracles upon a mortal woman (Alcmene), or Zeus transforming into shower of gold to impregnate Danae with Perseus.

Matthew 1:23 is a misused, misinterpreted and mistranslation of Isaiah verse - 7:14.

The verse in Isaiah 7:14 doesn't say the woman will give a virgin birth. The author (to the gospel) had deliberately use a Greek translation to Hebrew work, and referred to the the woman being parthenos "virgin".

But "virgin" in Hebrew is betulah. In 7:14, it used almah "young woman", not betulah "virgin".

Plus, the gospel author (supposedly Matthew) have ignore the most important part of the sign, in the next 3 verses (7:15-17), which stated that when a boy reach a certain age, the king of Assyria will attack Judah's enemies, Israel and Aram, taking the two kings as hostages.

The sign was given when Judah was at war with the two kingdoms, and they have besieged Ahaz in Jerusalem. Isaiah provided sign that Assyria will intervene.

Isaiah provide a similar sign to 7:14-17 in the next chapter, in 8:3-4. This verse (8:3) revealed the woman being pregnant is Isaiah's wife, and that his own son was the "sign". This is confirmed later in chapter 8:

Isaiah 8:18 said:
18 Here stand I and the children the L ORD has given me as signs and portents in Israel from the L ORD of Hosts, who dwells on Mount Zion.

Isaiah 7:14 is not the only time almah "young woman" being used. In fact 7:14 bear a striking resemblance to verse about Hagar, while she was pregnant with Ishmael (16:11):

Isaiah 7:14 said:
14 Assuredly, my Lord will give you a sign of His own accord! Look, the young woman is with child and about to give birth to a son. Let her name him Immanuel.

Genesis 16:11 said:
The angel of the L ORD said to her further, “Behold, you are with child And shall bear a son; You shall call him Ishmael, For the L ORD has paid heed to your suffering.

Compare the two, which I had highlighted in red.

Genesis 16:11 don't contain almah, like Isaiah 7:14, but there is better indication that Isaiah's verse is not referring to Mary.

What I want to point to you is the words "with child", which mean the woman is already "pregnant" or has "conceived", which mean the sign in Isaiah cannot be Mary.

In Hebrew, "with child", "conceived" or "pregnant" is harah.

To show that I am not making it up, here is the Hebrew transliterations of both verses:
Isaiah 7:14 transliteration said:
hinneh ha‘almah harah veyoledet ben; veqara’t shemo ‘immanu ’el

Genesis 16:11 transliteration said:
hinach harah veyoladet ben vekarat shemo Yishma'el

Looking and comparing the two verses in transliterations (not translations), showed that they are almost identical.

It is clear to me that Matthew 1:23 has changed the context to Isaiah's original sign, only providing the least important part of the sign.
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
So, show us the evidence of similar body structures in the Precambrian strata, effecting a reasonable order of descent, ok? (I mean, "scarcity of transitional fossils" still implies 'a few' were found, right?) The Chengjiang lagerstätten and Burgess Shale, where Cambrian organisms are found, preserved even the softer appendages on these hard-bodied creatures. So that really shouldn't be a problem, locating the ancestors to the many first-appearing Phyla.
Sorry but I don't play the creationist's game, "Reconcile the Fossil Gap." If you insist on refusing to recognize the limiting factors of fossil preservation so be it. Have a good day.


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Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I mean, "scarcity of transitional fossils" still implies 'a few' were found, right?.
And doesn't a few was found mean that a few actually was found? So how are those few transitional fossils explained in creationism? And how are transitional fossils that we have found not evidence of transitions of species, i.e. evolution?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
No, it supposedly began 540 million years ago, it might have lasted maybe 20 million years. A geological 'blink of an eye.'
"20 million years" is not a blink eye.

A blink of eye might be 200,000 years, which it how long humans (Homo sapiens) have been around for.

Compare 200,000 with the less than 3300 years calculate from the Old Testament (from Adam to fall of Jerusalem in 587 BCE), then you will see that humans have been around a lot longer than mythological appearance of Adam.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sorry but I don't play the creationist's game, "Reconcile the Fossil Gap." If you insist on refusing to recognize the limiting factors of fossil preservation so be it. Have a good day.


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But that's just it: soft-body parts are easily recognized in the Burgess and Chengjiang strata, exhibiting extremely fine detail!

Who of us is "refusing to recognize" the evidence?

Most evolutionists, when discussing the fossil record, eventually end up saying, "the fossil record is incomplete." Yeah, right....maybe its more complete than you care to acknowledge!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
When Matthew said, "Jesus walked on water" that is not third person.
It doesn't say "Matthew said..." or "Matthew saw..." the gospel never disclosed the identity of the author.

And in all the narration, none of the gospels used the word "I", "me" or "my", which would be first person perspective.
 
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