Is the Bible too Contradictory for All of it to be True?

Kelly of the Phoenix · Nov 20, 2016

omega2xx said:
Yes and He did it from 2 Tim 3:16.

So, God didn't tell you anything. A book did. Funny, God told ME that people wrote those books and He had hardly any part in it.

Should I trust God or Paul?

omega2xx said:
then it is impossible for man to renew them, but to think an omnipotent God who can speak the universe into being, can't or wont renew someone He loves is foolishness.

What is there to renew if the life given after being born again cannot die?

savagewind said:
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

One wonders why the texts that didn't make it into the canon and are yet referenced didn't seem too "useful".

savagewind said:
People who have argued that point say that by a disciple's fine conduct other people will be drawn to that way of life and some will become disciples because of another person's good behavior.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1

Our reward in heaven is rather irrelevant to the task, though, right?

fallingblood said:
If one takes the Bible as the infallible word of G-d, as a single monolithic work from start to end, then yes, it contains too many contradictions to be true as a whole.

Agreed. I think the Eden story ends after the Flood and is actually one story. This would explain how God can be cool with us after the Flood after learning that drowning us all for some minor irritations is a bit overkill and then suddenly back to being shocked we can do stupid or evil things in other stories. We must remember that the stories should best be viewed as single works, even in books that have multiple stories. Do that and the inconsistencies are more understandable ... still stupid, but understandable.

rusra02 said:
Many claimed contradictions in the Bible are simply different viewpoints of the same event.

If the news at 5 o'clock says that witnesses see a tiger running through a neighborhood and at 6 o'clock it says witnesses say a moose ran through a shopping center ... which version of the "same" event is the right one?

rusra02 said:
To me, this argues for a divine Author who used these men as secretaries to record his Word for all mankind. (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

I'd fire the secretaries, to be honest.

Augustus · Nov 20, 2016

Tumah said:
In my opinion, the contradictions, grammatical inconsistencies and other assorted technical language issues in Tanach are what 3/4 of Judaism is built on.

Can you explain what you mean by this please?

Augustus · Nov 20, 2016

Biblical contradictions seem to be very important to 21st century sceptics, but seemed to be completely unimportant to the people who actually compiled the texts. They must have been aware of many of them, but made no attempt to make things consistent. I've always found this interesting.

Has anyone got a good explanation why these contradictions were not considered important or problematic?

Tumah · Nov 20, 2016

Augustus said:
Can you explain what you mean by this please?

The Talmud and Midrash (in their role as commentary on Tanach) is basically a study of inconsistent grammar and word usage. We believe they are there purposely in order to derive various lessons.

The example that I usually give is the first verse of Genesis which is properly translated as "In the beginning of, G-d created the Heavens and the Earth". What it is the beginning of is missing from the verse. So this is either the wrong word or there's a word missing. Understanding this to be a purposeful mistake, the Talmud searches for other times in the Torah that the word "beginning of" is found. It then derives the lesson that verse is alluding to these things, as if to say, "With those things that are called 'beginning of' in mind, G-d created the Heavens and the Earth."

Later on in verse 11 where G-d commands that the earth produce "fruit trees bearing fruit" and contrasts it with verse 12 where the ground actually produces "trees producing fruit". The Midrash teaches that G-d commanded that the trees be edible, but the ground only produced trees bearing edible fruit (which is why the earth was later cursed along with Adam).

Those are examples of Midrashic teachings.

An example of judicial teachings would be Ex. 20:12 "do not steal". According to the Jewish interpretation, this actually refers to kidnapping. The understanding is that the Lev. 19:11 already prohibits stealing, so there is no reason to repeat it. However, by comparing it with the contexts of both verses, they determined that Lev. 19:11 refers to stealing money and this one refers to stealing people.

There's probably hundreds if not thousands of examples like this. Its easier to have someone point out a contradiction to me, that I can look up how its solved, then to think of a specific contradiction off hand.

There's a famous commentary that has among other things, a list of a few hundred rules explaining different types of sentence structures (such as putting a subject before or after the verb) and word usage in the Torah, and how the Rabbis derived various things from it.

Augustus · Nov 20, 2016

Tumah said:
The Talmud and Midrash (in their role as commentary on Tanach) is basically a study of inconsistent grammar and word usage. We believe they are there purposely in order to derive various lessons.

The example that I usually give is the first verse of Genesis which is properly translated as "In the beginning of, G-d created the Heavens and the Earth". What it is the beginning of is missing from the verse. So this is either the wrong word or there's a word missing. Understanding this to be a purposeful mistake, the Talmud searches for other times in the Torah that the word "beginning of" is found. It then derives the lesson that verse is alluding to these things, as if to say, "With those things that are called 'beginning of' in mind, G-d created the Heavens and the Earth."

Later on in verse 11 where G-d commands that the earth produce "fruit trees bearing fruit" and contrasts it with verse 12 where the ground actually produces "trees producing fruit". The Midrash teaches that G-d commanded that the trees be edible, but the ground only produced trees bearing edible fruit (which is why the earth was later cursed along with Adam).

Those are examples of Midrashic teachings.

An example of judicial teachings would be Ex. 20:12 "do not steal". According to the Jewish interpretation, this actually refers to kidnapping. The understanding is that the Lev. 19:11 already prohibits stealing, so there is no reason to repeat it. However, by comparing it with the contexts of both verses, they determined that Lev. 19:11 refers to stealing money and this one refers to stealing people.

There's probably hundreds if not thousands of examples like this. Its easier to have someone point out a contradiction to me, that I can look up how its solved, then to think of a specific contradiction off hand.

There's a famous commentary that has among other things, a list of a few hundred rules explaining different types of sentence structures (such as putting a subject before or after the verb) and word usage in the Torah, and how the Rabbis derived various things from it.

Interesting, thanks

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
Isn't it? Hebrews 13:17

King James Bible
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

New Living Translation
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit.

Berean Study Bible
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.

New American Standard Bible
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

That verse is not about salvation. It is about doing what church leaders tell its members to do. To join a Presbyterian church we must agree to obey and believe in the leaders the congregation have elected to watch over our souls. WE even vote on accepting a new pastor when we need to hire one.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

Kelly of the Phoenix said:
So, God didn't tell you anything. A book did. Funny, God told ME that people wrote those books and He had hardly any part in it.

So when you were in school the teacher did not tell you anything, the book you used told you? How do you know it was God who told you what you just said. How do you know it wasn't Satan himself? Thatg is what he did toEve.

Should I trust God or Paul?

You should trust what God inspired Paul to write, unless you have some evidence that God did not tell Paul what to write.

What is there to renew if the life given after being born again cannot die?

Being born again is the renewed life.

One wonders why the texts that didn't make it into the canon and are yet referenced didn't seem too "useful".

Speak for your self. I know that if God wanted it in the canon, it would be in it.

Our reward in heaven is rather irrelevant to the task, though, right?

There is no task that gets us into heaven---It is only by the grace of God thatg anyone gets there.

Agreed. I think the Eden story ends after the Flood and is actually one story. This would explain how God can be cool with us after the Flood after learning that drowning us all for some minor irritations is a bit overkill and then suddenly back to being shocked we can do stupid or evil things in other stories. We must remember that the stories should best be viewed as single works, even in books that have multiple stories. Do that and the inconsistencies are more understandable ... still stupid, but understandable.

It is such a comfort to have someone in the forum who is smarter than God and can overrule Him on what is a minor irritation. Did God die and make you omniscient about what is stupid? What a stupid idea.

If the news at 5 o'clock says that witnesses see a tiger running through a neighborhood and at 6 o'clock it says witnesses say a moose ran through a shopping center ... which version of the "same" event is the right one?

I'd fire the secretaries, to be honest.

It is such a comfort to have someone in the forum who is omniscient and so compassionate. God gives us all more than one chance to make a mistake, Evidently you don't.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

eerstnd the cntext of

TPaine said:
There are 194 contradictions in the New Testament alone:

Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13
Not everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Matthew 7:21
Only those whom the Lord chooses will be saved. Acts 2:39

http://www.skeptically.org/bible/id6.html

AS usual atheist web-sites do not understand the verses they use trying to show a contradiction.

Those in Mt 7:21 DID NOT call on the name of the Lord. They claimed to be working for God in Jesus' name. Jesus basically called them liars who PRACTICE lawlessness.

Want to try again?

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
I see another contradiction.

It is written that Jesus said to make disciples of him.

People who have argued that point say that by a disciple's fine conduct other people will be drawn to that way of life and some will become disciples because of another person's good behavior.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1

Does anyone think that maybe it was written DO practice your righteousness to be seen by others?

I don't.

WE are not to practice righteousness in such a way as to draw attention to our selves so others will think we are better than we are. That is what the hypocritical Pharisee did---Mt 6:2.

We are to be seen helping the needy, treating all with respect being honest and forgiving and all things mentioned in the fruit of the Light---goodness, righteousness and truth(Eph 5:8-9)

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

fallingblood said:
Getting back to the question, my answer would be no, or maybe. Sometimes yes. All of the above.

The Bible definitely has a great amount of contradictions. Some are meaningless, some are quite important. Some books detail very different views from other books, and some even argue against views stated in other books.

If one takes the Bible as the infallible word of G-d, as a single monolithic work from start to end, then yes, it contains too many contradictions to be true as a whole.

Why don't you post your best example. Is it not possible yu do not understand the verse?

However, I am of the view that each book of the Bible needs to be treated separately. While they can help inform each other, they are written for different reasons. And they were written by different individuals, without the intention of them being compiled into a library of texts. That being so, there will be problems, but that's fine. Nearly every work has some problems.

There is a saying that the Bible teaches itself. For that to be true, and I have found that it is, we must compare verses throughout the Bible to get the true truth of what God is trying to teach us.

The issue really only arises if one believes that the Bible is the literal Word of G-d. If one doesn't accept it as such, then there really isn't a problem.

Not true. God uses all the figures of speech, metaphors, allegories, symbolism, etc to teach the deepest spiritual truths.

Let there be light---The people were sitting in darkness saw a great light, and those who were sitting in the land of the shadow of death upon them a Light dawned---In whose case the god of this world has blinded them minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God(2 Cor 4:4)---For God who said, Light shall shine out of darkness is the One who has shown in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.---
God is the Father of lights(Jas 1:17)---Jesus is the Son of God and the Light of the world.

I am just getting warmed up on how God uses light. There is much more.

savagewind · Nov 25, 2016

omega2xx said:
That verse is not about salvation. It is about doing what church leaders tell its members to do. To join a Presbyterian church we must agree to obey and believe in the leaders the congregation have elected to watch over our souls. WE even vote on accepting a new pastor when we need to hire one.

Why won't people think? They are for watching over your soul for what?

If you obey you will be ____________.
If you do not obey you won't be __________.

savagewind · Nov 25, 2016

omega2xx said:
WE are not to practice righteousness in such a way as to draw attention to our selves so others will think we are better than we are. That is what the hypocritical Pharisee did---Mt 6:2.

We are to be seen helping the needy, treating all with respect being honest and forgiving and all things mentioned in the fruit of the Light---goodness, righteousness and truth(Eph 5:8-9)

Ephesians says live as children of light. It does not say be observed living as children of light.
You are adding to God's word meaning that isn't there. Is that right?

savagewind · Nov 25, 2016

I trust that if a person obeys God's will be done (to the best of his or her ability) he or she will be saved. I think that it is true that to obey actually means salvation. Now the Bible adds to that. It says we must also obey our leaders. Now to be saved it takes obeying a whole big crowd of people. And different people too. One church has leaders to obey and another church or Kingdom Hall have different leaders to obey. 1 Corinthians 1:12 1 Corinthians 3:4

savagewind · Nov 25, 2016

omega2xx said:
It is such a comfort to have someone in the forum who is smarter than God and can overrule Him on what is a minor irritation. Did God die and make you omniscient about what is stupid? What a stupid idea.
It is such a comfort to have someone in the forum who is omniscient and so compassionate. God gives us all more than one chance to make a mistake, Evidently you don't.

Jesus says you should catch up. Ephesians 4:25 each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Ephesians 5:4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Zechariah 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts
Proverbs 12:17-18 An honest witness tells the truth, but a false witness tells lies. The words of the reckless pierce like swords, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

savagewind · Nov 25, 2016

Just so you know, to respect and honor someone is not the same as to obey him.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
Jesus says you should catch up. Ephesians 4:25 each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Ephesians 5:4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
Ephesians 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Zechariah 8:16 These are the things you are to do: Speak the truth to each other, and render true and sound judgment in your courts
Proverbs 12:17-18 An honest witness tells the truth, but a false witness tells lies. The words of the reckless pierce like swords, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
Matthew 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

Evidently you don't understand sarcasm. It can be used without being insulting.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

Mestemia said:
It is interesting how this bold faced lie is so often repeated.

Talk is cheap---prove it is a lie.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
Why won't people think? They are for watching over your soul for what?

If you obey you will be ____________.
If you do not obey you won't be __________.

Why won't people study. Once a person is saved, their salvation cannot be lost.

Read I Pet 1:23, then look up "imperishable," and the truth will suddenly be revealed to you.

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
Ephesians says live as children of light. It does not say be observed living as children of light.
You are adding to God's word meaning that isn't there. Is that right?

The better translations says "walk" as children of light.

Then try Mt 5:16

omega2xx · Nov 25, 2016

savagewind said:
I trust that if a person obeys God's will be done (to the best of his or her ability) he or she will be saved. I think that it is true that to obey actually means salvation. Now the Bible adds to that. It says we must also obey our leaders. Now to be saved it takes obeying a whole big crowd of people. And different people too. One church has leaders to obey and another church or Kingdom Hall have different leaders to obey. 1 Corinthians 1:12 1 Corinthians 3:4

The Bible nowhere says salvation is obeying the best we can.

Gal 3:21 - Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life then righteousness would have indeed been based on the law.

Gal 2:16 say that 3 times. Then Gal 2:21, gives the logical reason.

We are declared righteous the same way Abram was---he believed God. God does not have a plan B.

Is the Bible too Contradictory for All of it to be True?

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