All of these things are possible after marriage too..
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Should couples have sex before marriage or not?
- Thread starter ZooGirl02
- Start date
All of these things are possible after marriage too..
I believe they should not. Marriage could not happen, and that could cause serious legal issues to the child. Related tragedies happened and I believe still happen all over the world. Loss of rightful inheritances, lost parental love, missed living costs, undergoing mental problems, etc. are all over the word in communities practicing premarital sex. Maybe in relatively small communities this is covered by other means, but it inherently hold the obvious potential in seriously harming children. I think those who get out of it, or rather the children, with no harm are lucky.
Are you a supporter of premarital sex? I don't mean disrespect, I'm just wondering.
It will still open other doors for risks like divorce, and divorce rate is already high in cultures with premarital sex common, and many problems take place because of it. It also opens doors to have secret sex for actual married couples. One member of the premarital sex couple could also want the child if pregnancy happens and that could cause serious problems too.
One could have many other "if" cases, but let's look at reality here. So many children already suffer and pay dearly for a desire their biological parents decided to take. I don't think we can ask "if" questions if we already see real life bad results, and orphanages with children not knowing one or both their parents is one of those real life results.
Salaam,
No.
But if the couple are not married to begin with, how does this open a door for divorce?
Because of what?
I don't quite follow you here - are you referring to adultery (where one of the parties to a marriage has sex with someone whom they are not married to without the consent of the other party/ies)? And in any case, how does premarital sex open the door to this?
This can happen in marriage too.
You still haven't answered my question.
Wassalaam
No.
But if the couple are not married to begin with, how does this open a door for divorce?
Because of what?
I don't quite follow you here - are you referring to adultery (where one of the parties to a marriage has sex with someone whom they are not married to without the consent of the other party/ies)? And in any case, how does premarital sex open the door to this?
This can happen in marriage too.
You still haven't answered my question.
Wassalaam
Your posts imply otherwise.
It's obvious; married couples will seek other sex relationships if they are okay with premarital sex.
Because of sea food. Oops, I mean premarital sex, what else are we talking about?
Are you saying premarital sex is not adultery? What is marriage in your beliefs?
So it could, but then there would be a marriage contract and things would go differently. You really don't know the purpose or marriage in Islam?
Which one?
Salaam,
Which posts specifically?
I don't think they would necessarily. I know plenty of married couples who are okay with the idea of premarital sex but do not seek out other sex relationships.
I wasn't sure if you were referring to divorce at that point, so was seeking clarification.
Yes. It is premarital sex.
A contract.
Islaam is not one monolithic thing. Different Muslims will have different ideas about the purpose and importance (or not) of marriage.
You seem to hang a lot of your justification for marriage on protecting children. I asked what about relationships which do not culminate in children. To keep it simple, two people in a committed premarital sexual relationship could decide not to have children, or they might not be capable of having children. Where is the harm in this kind of relationship, in your opinion?
Wassalaam
Which posts specifically?
I don't think they would necessarily. I know plenty of married couples who are okay with the idea of premarital sex but do not seek out other sex relationships.
I wasn't sure if you were referring to divorce at that point, so was seeking clarification.
Yes. It is premarital sex.
A contract.
Islaam is not one monolithic thing. Different Muslims will have different ideas about the purpose and importance (or not) of marriage.
You seem to hang a lot of your justification for marriage on protecting children. I asked what about relationships which do not culminate in children. To keep it simple, two people in a committed premarital sexual relationship could decide not to have children, or they might not be capable of having children. Where is the harm in this kind of relationship, in your opinion?
Wassalaam
All of them. You seem to be looking for holes in my replies the way premarital sex supporters do. Are you member @outhouse by anychance?
Not necessarily, I agree, but it happens.
I should have been more clear then. Sorry about that.
Do you mean that yes, premarital sex is adultery?
And what is the purpose, conditions and regulations for that contract to take place, in your beliefs?
I agree.
It is because children are who suffer the worst in the end, should they come to or already exist in this life. The slightest risk of cause them to suffer requires the most strict of regulations, in my opinion. Children are who build the future and the community, and to make sure they grow up in a healthy way, family should form in the best way available and that's thru marriage. Premarital sex is a threat to that and even if it does not involve children, children could still come with unplanned pregnancy, and many do, and even if they don't, practicing premarital sex as one pleases would form a habit that if at some point things pass safely, they could still not in the future. I personally cannot let my desire put even the slightest risk in this department.
My posts are about what concerns children. Cases with no children involved, I'm afraid I don't really have good answers for questions related to them. I should have said that earlier before connecting things to children.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I don't know that couples should have sex before marriage any more than I know if they should not have sex before marriage.
Seems to me it should be a couple by couple decision.
Salaam,
I am sorry you see it that way. I assure you I am not just looking for holes in your replies (for the sake of it). Some of my questioning is simply aimed at better understanding where you are coming from. And in some cases, I may not (wholly) agree with where you are coming from. But that doesn't mean I am a supporter of premarital sex - I personally think it is better to have sexual relations within the context of one or more contracted lasting, stable relationships (with one or more of Allaah's Servants) - although I do support the rights of other people to engage in premarital sex if they so wish.
No. Why would I pretend to be someone else?
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. No, I don't think premarital sex is adultery.
The purpose of such a contract is to set out the terms of the contracted relationship and protect the parties to that contract (through enforcement at law). The conditions and regulations are essentially the same as for any other contract (i.e. each party must have the capacity to enter into the agreement, and must freely and voluntarily do so).
It is entirely possible for children to grow up in a healthy way without the existence of a marriage contract.
Wassalaam
I am sorry you see it that way. I assure you I am not just looking for holes in your replies (for the sake of it). Some of my questioning is simply aimed at better understanding where you are coming from. And in some cases, I may not (wholly) agree with where you are coming from. But that doesn't mean I am a supporter of premarital sex - I personally think it is better to have sexual relations within the context of one or more contracted lasting, stable relationships (with one or more of Allaah's Servants) - although I do support the rights of other people to engage in premarital sex if they so wish.
Are you member@outhouse by anychance?
No. Why would I pretend to be someone else?
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. No, I don't think premarital sex is adultery.
The purpose of such a contract is to set out the terms of the contracted relationship and protect the parties to that contract (through enforcement at law). The conditions and regulations are essentially the same as for any other contract (i.e. each party must have the capacity to enter into the agreement, and must freely and voluntarily do so).
It is entirely possible for children to grow up in a healthy way without the existence of a marriage contract.
Wassalaam
I didn't mean it that way, that was just how I felt. I just didn't know how to say it since English is not my mother tongue. Also, people having the right to practice it is not something I'm pointing at at all. They are free to do what they want, whether it is good or bad, as long as it does not demonize me, and I have no right in stopping them. All I'm sharing here is that premarital sex is bad, regardless to whether one wants to do it or not.
I didn't say you would, it is just normal that members change their usernames or replace them with a new account. Your style seemed similar to his, that's all there is to it, not that the comparison was intended badly. He's cool, by the way.
Isn't having sex without marriage adultery? What is the definition of adultery in your views?
Thank you for sharing. So without that contract, there would be lack of protection for the parties of the contract. Is that correct?
That also seems to be a secular purpose of marriage. What is the Islamic purpose of marriage in your views? Or is the above an Islamic definition?
Agreed. But in my views, it is never close to that of a complete marriage. As as mentioned before with examples, it's a real life occurrence having children around with serious problems because of not knowing who their father is, or having a father who never cared but to enjoy having sex before marriage then changing his mind.
Is there someone you trust with good Islamic knowledge you can ask if premarital sex is good or bad for children? They may be better than me in this. I think you noticed how bad my skills are in expressing myself.
Salaam,
No.
If one is married, having sexual relations with someone else without the consent of existing partners.
The protection I was referring to was wrt the terms of the contract. In the kind of Islaamic State I envisage, there would still be the protections that all people would enjoy regardless of whether they are married or not, against unlawful encroachment upon their life, liberty or property.
As I have said, marriage is a contract. And I have already outlined the purpose of a marriage contract. Everything I say stems from what I take Islaam to be (because Islaam dictates everything I do).
The same, or similar, problems can also exist after marriage. Moreover, children can live happy lives without knowing who their biological father (or mother) is.
Why someone with good Islaamic knowledge? This is an empirical question which doesn't require someone to have good Islaamic knowledge to be able to answer.
Wassalaam
No.
If one is married, having sexual relations with someone else without the consent of existing partners.
The protection I was referring to was wrt the terms of the contract. In the kind of Islaamic State I envisage, there would still be the protections that all people would enjoy regardless of whether they are married or not, against unlawful encroachment upon their life, liberty or property.
As I have said, marriage is a contract. And I have already outlined the purpose of a marriage contract. Everything I say stems from what I take Islaam to be (because Islaam dictates everything I do).
The same, or similar, problems can also exist after marriage. Moreover, children can live happy lives without knowing who their biological father (or mother) is.
Why someone with good Islaamic knowledge? This is an empirical question which doesn't require someone to have good Islaamic knowledge to be able to answer.
Wassalaam
Does that mean it is not adultery if, let's say, a wife has sex with a random stranger with the consent of her husband?
Hmm, I see. Thank you for sharing.
That's true, but problems cause by out of marriage sex are caused because of that out of marriage relationships, while problems after marriage are caused by random other causes that show up in the life span if that marriage.
Understood.
Salaam,
On my definition, assuming that the random stranger is not married, that is correct.
What specific problems that are different from those that might happen in marriage?
Wassalaam
On my definition, assuming that the random stranger is not married, that is correct.
What specific problems that are different from those that might happen in marriage?
Wassalaam
How can we know if that stranger is not married, or married and lied about it just to enjoy sex? And if that stranger is married, will both be adulterers, even the wife that got consent from her husband, or just the stranger?
You said that marriage is a contract to protect terms in that contract. Any problems occur in premarital sex stage to either partners or a child that could come to this life because there was no contract to protect those terms are included. I don't care about the partners at this stage since they made a choice and they should cope with any results, but what's the fault of the child if there was no contract to protect terms concerning it (the child)? Which reminds me, what are those terms you were referring to that marriage contract protects?
Salaam,
Ultimately, we can't always know for certain.
If the stranger is married and got consent from their partner(s) and the wife got consent from her husband (and both the stranger and the wife knew that their respective partners had given consent), then neither will be adulterers. If the stranger is married and did not get consent from their partner(s) - and the wife in question knew this - then they are both adulterers.
No fault of the child.
Whatever the contract stipulates.
Wassalaam
Ultimately, we can't always know for certain.
If the stranger is married and got consent from their partner(s) and the wife got consent from her husband (and both the stranger and the wife knew that their respective partners had given consent), then neither will be adulterers. If the stranger is married and did not get consent from their partner(s) - and the wife in question knew this - then they are both adulterers.
No fault of the child.
Whatever the contract stipulates.
Wassalaam
I'll just give the Hindu mystical POV, so it's also in this discussion, not for argument or anything more than information. Most people wouldn't know this, and even more wouldn't believe it. The mystical reason for not having sex is to not get hooked to someone that you may not want to be hooked to in the long run. If premarital sex happens for two people that end up getting married then the mystical consequences wouldn't be much at all. Remaining with one person strengthens the bond of marriage.
We all have subtle nerve currents within the astral body called nadis. They extend out past the physical body a few feet, and can be seen by mystics in auras. A the end of these nadis are hooks, and they work in sexuality much the same way velcro works physically. When two people connect via the intimacy of intercourse, these nadis get attached. The more intercourse, the stronger the bond. So couples who have been married a long time are really 'hooked' ... so much that they can sense each other moods and more, if they have any mystical or intuitive feelings at all. So the object of not sleeping around is to avoid the subtle effects coming from other people who you don't really want coming at you. All this makes divorce difficult, for example, and there are subtle effects on very promiscuous people.
It takes a fairly lenghty time for the 'glue' to wear off, usually considered 24 years.
In the Hindu marriage ceremony, astral beings (devas) are ceremoniously assigned to be helpers for the couple throughout their lives, just as the two extended families are helpers throughout their lives. That's also why a lot of consideration is put into a marriage on all sides.
So those of us with deeper view more mystical views would take this into consideration as well in deciding whether or not to have premarital sex, and that's definitely why adultery is really frowned upon. It weakens the marriage, the institution, the family, and ultimately the way of life.
We all have subtle nerve currents within the astral body called nadis. They extend out past the physical body a few feet, and can be seen by mystics in auras. A the end of these nadis are hooks, and they work in sexuality much the same way velcro works physically. When two people connect via the intimacy of intercourse, these nadis get attached. The more intercourse, the stronger the bond. So couples who have been married a long time are really 'hooked' ... so much that they can sense each other moods and more, if they have any mystical or intuitive feelings at all. So the object of not sleeping around is to avoid the subtle effects coming from other people who you don't really want coming at you. All this makes divorce difficult, for example, and there are subtle effects on very promiscuous people.
It takes a fairly lenghty time for the 'glue' to wear off, usually considered 24 years.
In the Hindu marriage ceremony, astral beings (devas) are ceremoniously assigned to be helpers for the couple throughout their lives, just as the two extended families are helpers throughout their lives. That's also why a lot of consideration is put into a marriage on all sides.
So those of us with deeper view more mystical views would take this into consideration as well in deciding whether or not to have premarital sex, and that's definitely why adultery is really frowned upon. It weakens the marriage, the institution, the family, and ultimately the way of life.
Does that mean it's okay to make an act for the sole purpose of lustful body pleasure knowing that we could be doing one of the gravest sins in Islam while we are already married and can have that pleasure already?
Hmm... the Quran says that it is forbidden to have sex outside marriage, and if one cannot get married, they are to abstain from sexual relationships until they can get married. Are you aware of the verses saying that (70:30, 23:6 and 24:33)?
Then if something bad happens to the child if it came to this world as a result of that premarital sex because of something the contracts fails to protect because it does not exist in the first place, the child will have to suffer from something it has nothing to do with. Wouldn't that be unfair to the innocent child for something that's not his fault? Such problems do happen in communities were premarital sex common, as I mentioned before.
Does that mean there are no default stipulations in the marriage contract (there must be at least one to call it a marriage contract)? So if there were no stipulations, there would be a blank contract or no contract at all, meaning there is no marriage? In your views, is it okay for who's not married to go and have sex with whom ever not married they can? Is Islam okay with this in your views?
Sorry for the many questions. I too am interested to know where you are coming from. I'd like to know more of the Islamic view you follow.