Should women be ordained?

linwood · Oct 31, 2004

Iacobus said:
The Catholic Church does not discriminate against women but not alonging them to be priests.

Yes it does.

If a woman cannot aspire to the rank of Janitor, Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope or any position for no other reason than her gender it is discrimination.
This may be good or this may bad or it may not matter from your perspective but it doesn`t change the fact of what it is.
You should read that definition again.

It is discrimination...period.

The Church has held he Sacred Traditions firm for nearly 2,000 years, inculding not placing women to the level of the priesthood.

The fact that this discrimination has gone on for 2000 years doesn`t change the fact that it`s discrimination.
It`s just really, really, really, ingrained discrimination.

An example, the sisters and the "lay ministers" serve vital roles in the Church, much like the roles filled in a choir.

The positions held in a Choir are held due to physical abilities and are not a form of descrimination.
However your use of this as an example could be construed to show that you don`t believe women have the ability to lead in the Catholic Cruch.

Trinity · Oct 31, 2004

linwood said:
Yes it does.

If a woman cannot aspire to the rank of Janitor, Priest, Bishop, Cardinal, Pope or any position for no other reason than her gender it is discrimination.
This may be good or this may bad or it may not matter from your perspective but it doesn`t change the fact of what it is.
You should read that definition again.

It is discrimination...period.

The fact that this discrimination has gone on for 2000 years doesn`t change the fact that it`s discrimination.
It`s just really, really, really, ingrained discrimination.

The positions held in a Choir are held due to physical abilities and are not a form of descrimination.
However your use of this as an example could be construed to show that you don`t believe women have the ability to lead in the Catholic Cruch.

The Church does discriminate, the definition of discrimination is " Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit". So there is no way to say the Church does not discriminate.

Now, is there anywhere else in the world, or even...shhhhhh... this country,that discriminates. Well the 14 th amendment has inherent discrimination built right into it. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." This blatantly discriminates against people not born in the US. What a horrible atrocity!!! Or the fact that you must 35 to run for president... or 21 to be in congress. Is that to say that when one turns a certain age they are automatically granted perfect wisdom and insight for that job? Yes the Church does discriminate, however, is that necessarily bad.
By the way, there are no "ranks" in the Church. The belief is that the "higher" your rank, the lower your rank actually is. Jesus has the highest "rank" and He is the servant of servants.

Iacobus · Nov 1, 2004

As Trinity said the first shall be last and the last first. The priest is no greater than the layman, save the priest can hold mass, and we do recongize this. The role of the priest, the pope, the bishop is to tend to the members of His Church and not to give power and glory to himself.

And my example of the choir does hold true, in so far as teh parts make the whole. Does the arm funtion fully without the elbow? The fingers may be, at first galance, more important and of more honor, yet if the shoulder doesn't operate, what function do the fingers have? The ordained, the lay, and the religious all form the Church and without one group it is not whole. The waiter gets more kudos than the cook, but without the bus boy would either have any import?

So, the Church does discriminate againsnt men as wekk? I can't be a nun, and you know what? This hasn't turned me away from the Church. My firends sister couldn't be a priest, yet she is as vitial to the Church in her role as a nun. I know of few women who feel "repressed" by the Church's stance on genders of priests.

Pah · Nov 1, 2004

Trinity said:
The Church does discriminate, the definition of discrimination is " Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit". So there is no way to say the Church does not discriminate.

You should have stopped there

Now, is there anywhere else in the world, or even...shhhhhh... this country,that discriminates. Well the 14 th amendment has inherent discrimination built right into it. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." This blatantly discriminates against people not born in the US. What a horrible atrocity!!! Or the fact that you must 35 to run for president... or 21 to be in congress. Is that to say that when one turns a certain age they are automatically granted perfect wisdom and insight for that job? Yes the Church does discriminate, however, is that necessarily bad.

Aw, it's not so bad is it!! We (says the Church) can discriminate because others do. How sad that that tired defense raises it's ugly head and so unworthy too!:tsk:

I guess we ought to condone peodphilia because age doesn't matter. We ought to let 10 year olds drink and drive eh? This is the principle on which justification for sexual discrimination of the Church should be condoned? Sad, sad, sad!!!:tsk:

By the way, there are no "ranks" in the Church. The belief is that the "higher" your rank, the lower your rank actually is. Jesus has the highest "rank" and He is the servant of servants.

Another nice twist but so far off the mark. A pope can be chosen from the ranks of priests? Isn't the opalence of office showered on those of higher rank?

The arguement should have been left at the admission of discrimination.:tsk:

-pah-

linwood · Nov 1, 2004

Trinity said:
The Church does discriminate, the definition of discrimination is " Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit". So there is no way to say the Church does not discriminate.

I know..I`m the one who brought it up.

Well the 14 th amendment has inherent discrimination built right into it. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." This blatantly discriminates against people not born in the US. What a horrible atrocity!!!

No it doesn`t, the goverment of the USA cannot impliment law to govern those who they do not represent.

Or the fact that you must 35 to run for president... or 21 to be in congress. Is that to say that when one turns a certain age they are automatically granted perfect wisdom and insight for that job?

Nope..you`re right, if you`re old enough to vote you should be old enough to run.
Lets get rid of these discriminatory laws.
While we`re at it we can get rid of the laws that say you can`t hold a public office unless you submit to a god.

Yes the Church does discriminate, however, is that necessarily bad.

Yes it is bad.
Not all discrimination is necessarily bad and even some that isn`t necessarily good can often be justified.
This discrimination is neither because it`s based on nothing more than a percieved male superiority.
Thats bad.

By the way, there are no "ranks" in the Church. The belief is that the "higher" your rank, the lower your rank actually is. Jesus has the highest "rank" and He is the servant of servants.

This is blatently untrue as you know the Catholic Church follows a very strict power hiearchy with clearly drawn distribution of powers.

robtex · Nov 1, 2004

I have noticed that the catholics have rallied against the idea of woman ministers but after going through this entire section I didn't see one arguement against them being ordained or any anti-woman ministers posting what they thougth should be the qualifying factors. Could the con arguements get together and post their validations against woman in the clergy...so we can see your arguement?

Being as their are many catholics on here....what is the catholic critera for priesthood and which points do the catholics (or anybody else I guess) dig or not dig?

Trinity · Nov 2, 2004

linwood said:
I know..I`m the one who brought it up.

No it doesn`t, the goverment of the USA cannot impliment law to govern those who they do not represent.

I don't know where you live, but there are many foreigners who live, work, and raise families here in the USA. What do you mean they are not represented?

This discrimination is neither because it`s based on nothing more than a percieved male superiority.
Thats bad.

Or that fact that Christ had many active woman doing ministry while He was alive, and yet nun were ordained for the ministry of priesthood.

This is blatently untrue as you know the Catholic Church follows a very strict power hiearchy with clearly drawn distribution of powers.

There is a clear hiearchy yes, but the fact is the higher you go, the more of a servant you are called to be. If you want to talk about distributive powers, nuns have had more of an effect on this county than any other group (in terms of teaching, hospital ministry). Why do you down play the effective work of these very faith nuns?

linwood · Nov 2, 2004

I don't know where you live, but there are many foreigners who live, work, and raise families here in the USA. What do you mean they are not represented?

This is not the argument, it`s an attempt to de-rail the argument but I will repeat.
The US governmet has no right to govern those they do not represent.
Many of the people you are refering to are bound by US law due to their residency here so they don`t even fall under the implication of your original statement.
It`s a side track.

Or that fact that Christ had many active woman doing ministry while He was alive, and yet nun were ordained for the ministry of priesthood.

Christ had nothing to do with Christianity or how the Catholic church hiearchy was established.
If he had I`m inclined to believe the Catholic church would have a much different face.
Christ was a Jew..he didn`t know what a Christian was, he never met one.
Nice Fruedian slip with the "nun were ordained" quote..I like that.
:jam:

There is a clear hiearchy yes, but the fact is the higher you go, the more of a servant you are called to be.

Thats your dogma talking not reality.
The truth is the higher you go in the Catholic hiearchy the more power you can wield over your fellow believers and thats the topic of this thread, the Catholic church.

If you want to talk about distributive powers, nuns have had more of an effect on this county than any other group (in terms of teaching, hospital ministry). Why do you down play the effective work of these very faith nuns?

I`m not downplaying anyones worth or work and we`re not talking about what influence Catholic women have on the world, we`re talking about what influence catholic women wield within the Catholic church and the answer is...nil.

Trinity · Nov 2, 2004

linwood said:
This is not the argument, it`s an attempt to de-rail the argument but I will repeat.
The US governmet has no right to govern those they do not represent.
Many of the people you are refering to are bound by US law due to their residency here so they don`t even fall under the implication of your original statement.
It`s a side track.

Then since there is no mix of Church and state, they have no influence over the Church.

Christ had nothing to do with Christianity or how the Catholic church hiearchy was established.
If he had I`m inclined to believe the Catholic church would have a much different face.
Christ was a Jew..he didn`t know what a Christian was, he never met one.

For the record, Jesus was the Christ, so as long as He looked at His reflection in the water, He saw a Christian. Now as far as not having anything to do with the Church goes, that is just nonsense. He est. the Church, He est. the hierarchy (commishining Peter, taking James and John) there are dozens more, if you like start a new thread on Christ est. the Church and we can talk more there. I am not sure if this helps you or not, but no one was considered a Christian for many years after Jesus. May 60 years after His death did they realize they should no longer worship with Jews, the Church evolved from Christ and with the Spirit.

Thats your dogma talking not reality.
The truth is the higher you go in the Catholic hiearchy the more power you can wield over your fellow believers and thats the topic of this thread, the Catholic church.

I`m not downplaying anyones worth or work and we`re not talking about what influence Catholic women have on the world, we`re talking about what influence catholic women wield within the Catholic church and the answer is...nil.

I am having trouble reconciling these two points, can you please explain.

Have a great night.

Bryan

linwood · Nov 2, 2004

Then since there is no mix of Church and state, they have no influence over the Church.

Correct, and no one`s saying any different.

I`m not the one who brought federal law into this discussion.
I never advocated tthe federal gov. have any oversight of any religion.

You`re trying to change the argument.
My argument is simply that the Catholic Churches hiearchy is patriarchal.
Women cannot lead the church or hold power within the churches hiearchy.
This is discrimination.

Thats all I ever said.
You don`t seem to be arguing against my point but creating arguments around my point to debate.
I don`t know why.

For the record, Jesus was the Christ, so as long as He looked at His reflection in the water, He saw a Christian.

That may well be but Jesus didn`t know it, he thought he was looking at a Jew and thats what he would have told you if you`d been able to ask.

He est. the hierarchy (commishining Peter, taking James and John) there are dozens more, if you like start a new thread on Christ est. the Church and we can talk more there.

No he did not.
Jesus had no say in the progression of power throughout the brigade system hiearchy of the Cathoil church.
No where in the Bible does he "establish" any Christian church.

I am not sure if this helps you or not, but no one was considered a Christian for many years after Jesus. May 60 years after His death did they realize they should no longer worship with Jews, the Church evolved from Christ and with the Spirit.

Yes, I find it interesting that thats around the same time the NT was written for the most part.
Interesting coincidence huh?

Trinity · Nov 2, 2004

linwood said:
Correct, and no one`s saying any different.

I`m not the one who brought federal law into this discussion.
I never advocated tthe federal gov. have any oversight of any religion.

You`re trying to change the argument.
My argument is simply that the Catholic Churches hiearchy is patriarchal.
Women cannot lead the church or hold power within the churches hiearchy.
This is discrimination.

Women hold many positions of leadership in the Church, both nationally and on a world scale. If you would like to start a thread on woman in the Church, we can talk about that. This is about woman being ordained to the ministry of the Priesthood.

That may well be but Jesus didn`t know it, he thought he was looking at a Jew and thats what he would have told you if you`d been able to ask.

No and yes. Jesus did know what He was looking at, He knew from His birth that He was the Messiah. But if you asked Him, He would have said He is a Jew, it is a little tough to follow yourself.

No where in the Bible does he "establish" any Christian church.

"Matthew 16:18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church". Sorry.

Yes, I find it interesting that thats around the same time the NT was written for the most part.
Interesting coincidence huh?

Actually it started to be written around 50 and finished around 90. The bulk was written around 65-75.

What else you got.

linwood · Nov 3, 2004

What else you got.

Lets deal with what I`ve already given before we move on shall we?

Women hold many positions of leadership in the Church, both nationally and on a world scale. If you would like to start a thread on woman in the Church, we can talk about that. This is about woman being ordained to the ministry of the Priesthood.

I think this topic is well within the threads OP.
If a mod disagrees I`ll gladly start another.

Again, I never said women didn`t hold leadership positions in the Church.
I said they could not lead the church or hold any signifigant power over its direction.
You have yet to deny this but you keep defending different versions of it.

Lets stop beating around the bush.
Can a woman become Pope?
Bishop?
Cardinal?
Priest?
Alter Server?
We both know they cannot under current & historical Catholic edict.
We both know the only reason for this is that they are women.
We both know it`s discrimination.
You agreed to this 5 posts ago.
Why are we still debating it?

No and yes. Jesus did know what He was looking at, He knew from His birth that He was the Messiah. But if you asked Him, He would have said He is a Jew, it is a little tough to follow yourself.

When did Jesus state that he was the messiah?

"Matthew 16:18 So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church". Sorry.

Don`t be sorry.
Jesus established the hiearchy of the Catholic church with that statement?
Do you think Jesus intended for the birth of Christianity to come from this statement?
Or did he simply want his brand of Judaism carried on?
You`d have to prove the infallabilty of the Papal line to even begin to defend that stance.
Can you do that?

Actually it started to be written around 50 and finished around 90. The bulk was written around 65-75.

Yes, like I said..."around the same time".
The political and theological changes that were going on went on for a long time in that first century and longer.
The NT was compiled from religious texts written by a rebellious Jewish sect at a time of great religious and political upheaval and war.

1 Tim 2:11-14
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.For Adam was first formed and then Eve.And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

Scott1 · Nov 4, 2004

linwood said:
I think this topic is well within the threads OP.
If a mod disagrees I`ll gladly start another.

*** MOD POST ***
I think it's just fine. Please continue... but be nice!

Iacobus · Nov 4, 2004

Lets stop beating around the bush.
Can a woman become Pope?
Bishop?
Cardinal?
Priest?
Alter Server?
We both know they cannot under current & historical Catholic edict.
We both know the only reason for this is that they are women.
We both know it`s discrimination.
You agreed to this 5 posts ago.
Why are we still debating it?

Pope? No. Cardinal? No. Priest? No. Bishop? No. But I ask why you stated all of those, they are all priests.

Altar severs? Yes, now they can.

I would write a longer, perchance clearer, explantion, but I am short on time and am rather cold right now, thus forgive my breivity.

In support of my defense of the religious and lay being parts, all important, of the same body, I offer this,

The celebrants of the sacramental liturgy

1140 It is the whole community, the Body of Christ united with its Head, that celebrates. "Liturgical services are not private functions but are celebrations of the Church which is 'the sacrament of unity,' namely, the holy people united and organized under the authority of the bishops. Therefore, liturgical services pertain to the whole Body of the Church. They manifest it, and have effects upon it. But they touch individual members of the Church in different ways, depending on their orders, their role in the liturgical services, and their actual participation in them."7 For this reason, "rites which are meant to be celebrated in common, with the faithful present and actively participating, should as far as possible be celebrated in that way rather than by an individual and quasi-privately."8

1141 The celebrating assembly is the community of the baptized who, "by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, that through all the works of Christian men they may offer spiritual sacrifices."9 This "common priesthood" is that of Christ the sole priest, in which all his members participate:10

[size=-1]Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy, and to which the Christian people, "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people," have a right and an obligation by reason of their Baptism.11 [/size] 1142 But "the members do not all have the same function."12 Certain members are called by God, in and through the Church, to a special service of the community. These servants are chosen and consecrated by the sacrament of Holy Orders, by which the Holy Spirit enables them to act in the person of Christ the head, for the service of all the members of the Church.13 The ordained minister is, as it were, an "icon" of Christ the priest. Since it is in the Eucharist that the sacrament of the Church is made fully visible, it is in his presiding at the Eucharist that the bishop's ministry is most evident, as well as, in communion with him, the ministry of priests and deacons.

1143 For the purpose of assisting the work of the common priesthood of the faithful, other particular ministries also exist, not consecrated by the sacrament of Holy Orders; their functions are determined by the bishops, in accord with liturgical traditions and pastoral needs. "Servers, readers, commentators, and members of the choir also exercise a genuine liturgical function."14

1144 In the celebration of the sacraments it is thus the whole assembly that is leitourgos, each according to his function, but in the "unity of the Spirit" who acts in all. "In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should carry out all and only those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the norms of the liturgy."15

Sorry for the Doc Drop, I would have read and paraphased, but as I said, I am short on time.

As to why the Church doesn't ordin women in that Christ made the Choice to ordin only his 12 apostles, and the Church sees that she is bond to this choice, and does not feel that it is in her ability to ordain women to the priesthood. She will put them in vitial roles, but not the priesthood, and it takes a lot more than a priest for the Church to carry on.

linwood · Nov 4, 2004

Iacobus said:
Altar severs? Yes, now they can.

Honestly, I was aware of that but there was much argument about even such a small role as alter server for so long.
I wanted to see if I could slip one past you.

As to why the Church doesn't ordin women in that Christ made the Choice to ordin only his 12 apostles, and the Church sees that she is bond to this choice, and does not feel that it is in her ability to ordain women to the priesthood.

So in other words..Jesus was intolerent towards women.
S`ok..I don`t really believe that....

But you are refering to a part of the Bible that was chosen by the Catholic Church their are other sects of Christianity that hold women as equals because they follow texts that were condemned by the church.

But all in all "why" the Church discriminates isn`t the issue.
It`s merely the fact that they do.

Trinity · Nov 4, 2004

linwood said:
Honestly, I was aware of that but there was much argument about even such a small role as alter server for so long.
I wanted to see if I could slip one past you.

So in other words..Jesus was intolerent towards women.
S`ok..I don`t really believe that....

But you are refering to a part of the Bible that was chosen by the Catholic Church their are other sects of Christianity that hold women as equals because they follow texts that were condemned by the church.

But all in all "why" the Church discriminates isn`t the issue.
It`s merely the fact that they do.

What is the problem? Have you ever heard of gender differences? Roles? Why is the world so against these things?

linwood · Nov 4, 2004

What is the problem? Have you ever heard of gender differences? Roles? Why is the world so against these things?

I didn`t say it was a problem.
I just said it was discrimination.

Trinity · Nov 4, 2004

linwood said:
I didn`t say it was a problem.
I just said it was discrimination.

If that is the word you would like to use to describe it, that is fine with me.

It just seems unfair since it has many negative connotations associated with it.

chuck010342 · Nov 4, 2004

The holy spirit comes on men and women

Ceridwen018 · Nov 4, 2004

It just seems unfair since it has many negative connotations associated with it.

Well, the idea of keeping women out of the preisthood simply because they're women is a pretty negative one, Trinity. As well as discrimination, another apropos word might be 'sexism'.

Should women be ordained?

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