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Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

outhouse

Atheistically
Genesis 1:12
Bible:

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself,
Genesis 1:12 - KJV
Qur'an:

And the earth - We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.
Qur'an 15:19
 

Shad

Veteran Member

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
No we have not.

Abraham and moses and noah are all mythological characters that have no historicity what so ever.

Same applies .. the 'mythology might be true or false..

This means that Abraham, Moses and Noah, peace be with them, might have been true prophets that actually lived. The fact that history cannot endorse them does not matter :)
 
I like this.

This is good

It goes on and on and on

Not only have you clearly acknowledged that you have never read any academic material on this subject, you are now proving that as well as being ignorant of academic research, you are in fact very anti-academic.

I would say you are one of the most anti-academic posters on this site. If you spent 1/10th of the time reading 'academia' that you do pretending you understand it then copy/pasting contextless passages from dictionaries and wikipedia, you would have probably earned a PhD by now.

I have provided you with links to over 30 pieces of genuine academic scholarship, however, without actually reading any of it, you dismissed it all as worthless. As this was a cross section of recent scholarship, you thus dismissed the entire field of contemporary critical Western scholarship as worthless without feeling the need to understand even 1% of it. It's clear that you don't even understand 1% of it because you mistook critical academic history for theological apologetics. I mean you wouldn't have made this mistake if you had been able to recognise the name of a single modern scholar. You also wouldn't have been able to make this mistake if you read the titles of the articles, never mind actually opened them.

Even religious apologists try to demonstrate that the material is incorrect, but you didn't even get this far. It was simply 'worthless'. At least apologists actually read the perspectives they want to argue against.

Whilst the work of well respected scholars is 'worthless', you then cite 1. A polemical video by a journalist famous for not being a scholar of Islamic history 2. A blog written by an unknown person who is clearly not an expert 3. A video by a Christian apologist based on material so thoroughly discredited that not only is it rejected by academics, but also anti-Islamic polemicists.



It goes on and on and on

What goes 'on and on' is 1. you favouring polemics, wikipedia and dictionaries over rigorous scholarship 2. you posting untrue/highly speculative information as being 'factually correct' 3. you not understanding the difference between theology and history despite it being pointed out to you 50 times, so you argue against theology when others are discussing history 4. you commenting authoritatively on a topic you genuinely know almost nothing about and wilfully ignoring evidence that demonstrates this 5. you promoting the attitude that it is better to make up some clear and precise pseudo-history than accept that what actually happened is currently unknown or contentious.

On a thread about academic perspectives, you are shilling for anti-academic polemics and ignorance, as opposed to critical enquiry.

Would you like to get back on topic and start discussing academic perspectives please? Either present some of the ones that you agree with, or provide reasoned criticism of the ones you disagree with. No more polemical videos or blogs please. You have claimed you are familiar with this topic, so it shouldn't be difficult to find a small number of articles that have informed your opinions should it? Even just 1 would be a start.

Or, seeing as all my articles are 'worthless', why don't you comment on which arguments you found particularly pathetic? Which was the worst article you read? Perhaps one of the Reynolds articles, you have expressed particular contempt for him and I find him very insightful so should make for a good discussion.
 
Last edited:
I'm going to propose a new game to hopefully improve the quality of discussion, or at least to make things more fun and less frustrating :D When someone replies to your post, you get 1 point each time the reply uses any of the following:

1. rejecting academia
2. factually (double points if in caps.)
3. you have no credibility
4. YOU (double points if followed by 'sir')
5. Any unnecessary capitalisation
6. The whole post in bold
7. Larger font sizes
8. :rolleyes:
9. :facepalm:
10. copy/paste dictionary
11. copy/paste wikipedia
12. Not up for debate
13. Perverted
14. Plagiarized
15. Non sequitur used incorrectly

If your reply manages to avoid using any of these, you get a point instead.

At the end of the thread, the person with the most points wins :trophy:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So what your saying is we should use the word COPIED


Genesis 1:12

Bible:

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself,
Genesis 1:12 - KJV


And the earth - We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.
Qur'an 15:19
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Same applies .. the 'mythology might be true or false..

This means that Abraham, Moses and Noah, peace be with them, might have been true prophets that actually lived. The fact that history cannot endorse them does not matter :)

Ad hoc rescue argument based on if, maybes, could be, might. Anyone can use these arguments against any claim you make.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
So what your saying is we should use the word COPIED


Genesis 1:12

Bible:

And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself,
Genesis 1:12 - KJV
Qur'an:

And the earth - We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of every suitable thing.
Qur'an 15:19

Copied or paraphrased are fine since there are no imposed negative implications. Paraphrasing happens in translations all the time without issues.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
By claiming plagiarism you are declaring a person a liar, thief and fraud.

That's your problem because it is YOUR personal definition. Muhammad was just the collector of traditions, and even if he did create the text he could have thought he was inspired by god.

Muhammad could have thought Warakas rewrite was gods word and thought the bible to be a collection of corrupted non credible text.

Waraka could have thought his version was divinely inspired juts based on his own conscious thought.

Unknown authors of he text could have thought they were correcting errors, it is still plagiarism because its NOT copied word for word.


There is no real deception here. Religious people believe they are right whether they are or not.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
One of the quotes that Muslims like using is this verse 5:32, especially with what I have highlighted in red and bold:

Qur'an 5:32 said:
Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!

What a lot of Muslims are unaware of, unless they have actually bother to read rabbinic literature like the Talmud, then that highlighted quote is a rip off the Babylonian Talmud, Mishnah Sanhedrin 37a:

Babylonian Talmud said:
Therefore the man was created singly, to teach that he who destroys one soul of a human being, the Scripture considers him as if he should destroy a whole world, and him who saves one soul of Israel, the Scripture considers him as if he should save a whole world.

The Talmud were written several centuries before Muhammad appointed himself as prophet, and they (Talmud and other rabbinic literature) are all based on oral tradition (such as the Oral Torah), as well commentaries made by various rabbis or sages.

Clearly the Qur'an plagiarized idea with non-biblical text with the murder of one person kill all of mankind. A non-prophet rabbi or sage wrote that, and it is not found in the Torah (not found in the Genesis).

If you read the whole passage (referring to Mishnah Sanhedrin 37a), especially the beginning, before "murder" and "saving" of mankind, the passage is clearly a commentary made about the murder of Abel by Cain.

So why would Muhammad include something that clearly come from Talmudic commentary?
 
The Talmud were written several centuries before Muhammad appointed himself as prophet, and they (Talmud and other rabbinic literature) are all based on oral tradition (such as the Oral Torah), as well commentaries made by various rabbis or sages.

Clearly the Qur'an plagiarized idea with non-biblical text with the murder of one person kill all of mankind. A non-prophet rabbi or sage wrote that, and it is not found in the Torah (not found in the Genesis).

If you read the whole passage (referring to Mishnah Sanhedrin 37a), especially the beginning, before "murder" and "saving" of mankind, the passage is clearly a commentary made about the murder of Abel by Cain.

So why would Muhammad include something that clearly come from Talmudic commentary?


First you have to really think about what the reality was in the 7th C, rather than the theological narrative. If using words like plagiarism you are implying that you know the intentions of the author, the context in which this occurred and the relationship between the author and the audience. For example, many memes rely on standard images/phrases which are reworked by individuals into something new. Each new meme is not a plagiarism of the first one as the author and audience share a common frame of reference which is being alluded to and a shared understanding of origin.

There are too many unknowns to say things with certainty, the following is relevant:

Before going to the heart of the matter, I should say a few words about “hypertextuality”.6 It has become commonplace in Qur’ānic studies to speak of intertextuality, especially Biblical or parabiblical intertextuality. A more precise lexicon, however, is necessary.

The notion of hypertextuality has been introduced by Gérard Genette, who defines it as any relationship uniting a text B (the hypertext) to an earlier text A (the hypotext, or subtext), upon which it grafts itself in a manner which is not that of the commentary. In contrast, intertextuality is defined in a more restrictive way, as a relation of copresence between two texts or among several texts (quotation, plagiarism*, allusion...). There is also metatextuality, which refers to the relation of “commentary” – when a text comments or criticizes another one, without necessarily quoting it or naming it.7

These various categories are porous and blurred. For example, pure metatextuality is possible, but rare (people often quote or allude to the text they comment). In other words, these categories are tools which should guide us in highlighting various and complex textual relations, not separate boxes where every kind of textual relation should be packed. We should then speak of hypertextuality in a broad sense, since this category seems particularly apt for describing the reworking (particularly when it is creative) of an earlier text in a new one. Qur’ānic hypertextuality, of course, displays also most of the time intertextuality and metatextuality. The connotations of the prefix –hyper can also evoke the (often) extremely dense network of “texts”8 involved in the composition of the Qur’ān – many of them extra-Qur’ānic, but some of them belonging to the Qur’ānic corpus.9


*plagiarism here is mentioned as part of a general description if the term intertextuality re: potential causes of copresence. Wikipedia article has a bit of an explanation on the differences [This is mainly for the benefit of outhouse who will get very excited if he sees the word without understanding the context]

The Qur’ān and its Hypertextuality in Light of Redaction Criticism - Guillaume Dye
https://www.academia.edu/12358270/The_Quran_and_its_Hypertextuality_in_Light_of_Redaction_Criticism


Also a little bit about the context here:


Indeed, a good number of Qur’ānic pericopes look like Arabic ingenious patchworks of Biblical and para- Biblical texts, designed to comment passages or aspects of the Scripture, whereas others look like Arabic translations of liturgical formulas.

This is not unexpected if we have in mind some Late Antique religious practices, namely the well-known fact that Christian Churches followed the Jewish custom of reading publicly the Scriptures, according to the lectionary principle. In other words, people did not read the whole of the Scripture to the assembly, but lectionaries (Syriac qǝryānā, Ǧreading of Scripture in Divine Service”, etymon of Arabic qur’ān), containing selected passages of the Scripture, to be read in the community. Therefore, many of the texts which constitute the Qur’ān should not be seen (at least if we are interested in their original Sitz im Leben) as substitutes for the (Jewish or Christian) Scripture, but rather as a (putatively divinely inspired) commentary of Scripture73. And since this Scripture was not in Arabic, we understand better the role of the Qur’ān, and we also understand better why it insists so much on Arabic (Q 12:2; 13:37; 14:41; 16:103; 26:195; 39:28; 41:3, 44; 42:7; 43:3; 46:12): stressing that there is an Arabic qur’ān supposes that there might be non-Arabic scriptures.


Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in Qur'anic Arabic – G. Dye
https://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If using words like plagiarism you are implying that you know the intentions of the author

Intention has nothing to do with the ACT the VERB of plagiarizing. :facepalm:

True intention may be lost, but copy cats are pretty obvious, and NO ONR need intention to realize when someone has copied others work.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
the benefit of outhouse

:facepalm: Your link backs me up whole hearted.

plagiarism here is mentioned as part of a general description if the term intertextuality

Yes from your own link

In contrast, intertextuality is defined in a more restrictive way, as a relation of copresence between two texts or among several texts (quotation, plagiarism, allusion).


Qurānic hypertextuality, of course, displays also most of the time intertextuality and metatextuality.



Q 19:1-63* is a text which can be described as almost Christian, or even as Christian:
 
Intention has nothing to do with the ACT the VERB of plagiarizing. :facepalm:

True intention may be lost, but copy cats are pretty obvious, and NO ONR need intention to realize when someone has copied others work.

Plagiarism requires dishonesty or a blatant disregard for the usual conventions of the specific type of communication. It is not a catch all term for commonality between 2 texts.

You'd do well to understand concepts such as inter/meta/hypertextuality. Also to understand the difference between plagiarism and interpretation/interpolation/adaptation/commentary/etc.

According to your usage, we constantly plagiarise many times every day, as these are not original ideas and we are not providing 'references'.

And 'copy cats'? are you 12?

:facepalm: Your link backs me up whole hearted.

You haven't read the article, and don't understand what it says. Told you you'd get excited by the word plagiarism and wouldn't make the slightest attempt to gain any knowledge about it. You lack nuance in your thought, which is why you are so anti-academic when it comes to this subject.

The 2nd quote I provided is actually very relevant for the context, what do you think about it?

From your favourite source (remember how much faith you put in Wikipedia):

“Intertextuality is an area of considerable ethical complexity” (Share, 2006). As intertextuality, by definition, involves the (sometimes) purposeful use of other’s work without proper citation, it is often mistaken for plagiarism. Plagiarism is the act of “using or closely imitating the language and thoughts of another author without authorization-” (“Plagiarism”, 2015). Whilst this does seem to include intertextuality, the intention and purpose of using of another’s work, is what allows intertextuality to be excluded from this definition. When using intertextuality, it usually a small excerpt of a hypotext that assists in the understanding of the new hypertext’s (Ivanic, 1998) original themes, characters or contexts. They use a part of another text and change its meaning by placing it in a different context (Jabri, 2004). This means that they are using other’s ideas to create or enhance their own new ideas, not simply plagiarising them. Intertextuality is based on the ‘creation of new ideas’, whilst plagiarism is often found in projects based on research to confirm your ideas.

Read both articles and comment on them in context rather than copying 1 sentence and pretending you understand the larger points being made and the larger context.

And remember, history is the basis for the discussion, not theology.



(I got about 10 points already in 'outhouse bingo' though :D. You get 1 back for me quoting wikipedia though :oops:)
 

Shad

Veteran Member
That's your problem because it is YOUR personal definition. Muhammad was just the collector of traditions, and even if he did create the text he could have thought he was inspired by god.

Nope it is actually your problem since you lack reading comprehension at a higher level to figure out how different words are applicable. You again change your claims. If Muhammad was only collecting texts then he didn't plagiarize anything but made a compilation.

Muhammad could have thought Warakas rewrite was gods word and thought the bible to be a collection of corrupted non credible text.

Sure you could put that forward. All you have done is taken an idea I was talking about for the last few pages and used it, not that there is anything wrong with that. However is there an actual text Warakas you can reference to show this claim has merit?

Waraka could have thought his version was divinely inspired juts based on his own conscious thought.

Yes, another point I brought up already but for Muhammad and other texts which can be referenced. Where is Waraka's text to reference?

Unknown authors of he text could have thought they were correcting errors, it is still plagiarism because its NOT copied word for word.

Heard of paraphrased? You have yet to establish plagiarism at all. You just keep making assertions back by nothing. Besides if they thought they were correcting something then they already acknowledge the text exists and it has authors thus not plagiarism

There is no real deception here. Religious people believe they are right whether they are or not.

So then it is not plagiarism, as it requires deception. It would be an incorrect citation or belief in authorship.
 
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