The Emerging World Religion

sojourner · Nov 18, 2015

Windwalker said:
I just had that mental image this morning. I could come up with lots of other metaphors, like a plastic burger that looks like a burger, but is completely hollow inside. I do like the dog meat analogy though, as when you try to eat what is offered instead of beef, though it looks like a burger, makes you sick instead. Words like "the heart", are bastardized to mean submission to religious authority. Love is bastardized to mean strict observance of rules. Freedom is bastardized to mean you won't be annihilated when judgment day comes. Peace is bastardized to mean I don't have to worry about punishment because I follow the rules. Joy is bastardized to mean I'm happy I'm not one of those God is going to send the flames of hell. The Spirit is bastardized to mean the texts of the Bible. And so forth. The words are right, the substance of them are all wrong.

"Heart" is steadiness of purpose -- where we stand and how we move. "Love" knows no bounds -- including the boundaries of rules. "Freedom" means that we are present where we find ourselves. "Peace" is that state wherein we are well-grounded. "Joy" is being open to the possibilities of life. "Spirit" is the thread that interconnects all things. As you describe them on behalf of typical, fundamentalist thinking, these things are not understood in the light of truth and cause a twisting and a stagnation.

Windwalker · Nov 18, 2015

sojourner said:
"Heart" is steadiness of purpose -- where we stand and how we move. "Love" knows no bounds -- including the boundaries of rules. "Freedom" means that we are present where we find ourselves. "Peace" is that state wherein we are well-grounded. "Joy" is being open to the possibilities of life. "Spirit" is the thread that interconnects all things. As you describe them on behalf of typical, fundamentalist thinking, these things are not understood in the light of truth and cause a twisting and a stagnation.

Nicely said.

Sand Dancer · Nov 18, 2015

InChrist said:
I agree that Jesus did not endorse outward religion and that religion is very misleading. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, the life, and the door for anyone to have reconciliation and relationship with God, as the scriptures say He is the Savior.

Why not go by the synoptic gospels instead of the last and most embellished gospel?

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
To believe that God is a universal God to all beliefs system, acceptable whether what their religion or faith they had (even if they are not a follower of Christ) is considered an access and opening to a one world religion. It is not for mystics, but to all people who chose to embrace and adhered different beliefs aside from his own faith.

Why? Why that God is universal means we will have a one world religion? That doesn't follow. There is only one moon in our night sky. Does that mean there will be a one world religion? No. You need to look on the ground why there are religions. There are many cultures and societies. Therefore there will always be many religions.

But I am disturbed that you say God is not a universal God. But I'm also not surprised. Your version of Christianity is very tribal, so it does follow your deity would be not be universal, but a regional tribal god as well. You've just admitted this. It is the god of "your people", you believe in. The ethnocentric, tribal deity.

Yoshua said:
I believed Jesus say “Follow Me” and not “Follow them.”

So, you're saying Jesus really meant, "Follow my religion I'm starting"? Yes, that is what you are saying.

Yoshua said:
Ok. Thanks for correcting his name. Then, if Mr. Wilber is not a religious leader then, he is effective maybe in philosophy.

He is extraordinarily effective in understanding and mapping out world religions and how they work in human growth and development, as well as a plethora of other factors that we need to take into account in how we evaluate and discuss these topics. In other words, his work is quite relevant. But he's not a "religious teacher", such as a guru or whatnot as you misrepresented him.

Yoshua said:
Spiritual enlightenment under Buddhism, Hindus, New Age, TM, Bahai faith etc….

Enlightenment is enlightenment. I had an enlightenment experience when I was 18 and not part of any religion. It is accessible to everyone. God is not owned by any religion. Period. God is above and beyond religion, as well as before them. Religions are started by humans seeking God. All religions are partial.

Yoshua said:
I already learned something from them but not following their practices. Learning is different from following in Christ.

I actually very much agree with you. There is a night and day difference between between believing with your mind, versus knowing the heart. People follow the ways of God with the heart, and how we understand with the mind is relative. You don't have to pass a quiz to know God. God is not understood cognitively. The test you pass is the one of the heart. A true follower is one which bears fruit, regardless of how they think about God.

Yoshua said:
Opening or open to other religion/beliefs are the same as opening yourself to accept their doctrines--as valid and true.

And that's a problem how? You fail to understand that all human truths are partial truths. Religions are partial, not absolute. Again, you mistake the Christ for Christianity itself. You say Christianity is Truth. I say it is one finger on the hand pointing to the moon. You say it is the moon itself.

Yoshua said:
I’m very thankful indeed that I know something about contemplative spirituality but taking it as my faith in God and practice them is a big deal for me.

You actually don't know anything about contemplative spirituality based on the countless pages of misinformation you believe is true about it. No person who practices meditation take is as their "faith in God" as you misrepresent. It is an exercise, a practice, a discipline. It's not a "faith" anymore than exercising your mind reading a book is.

Yoshua said:
Ok. This is one example that I would choose to let you know how your interpretation goes. It is like you’re saying if a Hindu is following a God, he is already categorized as a follower of Jesus. Oh my! What a kind of commitment is that?

You misunderstand what it means to "follow Jesus". To you that means you have to become a Christian in name, and believe whatever doctrines and tenets of faith your particular flavor of the day brand of Christianity you've adopted holds to be true. To me a follower of Jesus is anyone who does the will of the Father, which is the path of love. Anyone who does this, is in fact following Jesus. They are doing what he did. Even if they have never heard of him, if they love as Jesus loved, they are following Jesus.

Again, you mistake Christianity as the Christ. I do not make that mistake. Christianity does not own God. God is not a Christian. Jesus is not a Christian. The Christ is not a Christian.

Yoshua said:
How could you say that you already followed Jesus if you did not believe all of His words in the Bible?

You mistake beliefs for the Christ, as well.

Yoshua said:
Secondly, your interpretation of following Jesus is not denying yourself because “denying yourself” is giving yourself to God to obey His will rather than yours.

I do deny myself all the time. It's the only way to follow Spirit. "Not my will, but thine be done". You want to believe I am not because what I say contradicts your beliefs. But the fact is, not following my own ideas and desires is the only way I am able to know God. That is what the practice of meditation allows you to do, to see where you are self-contracted, holding parts of yourself back. In fact, that defines the whole process for me. Where am I not surrendered? So, bottom line, you're full of it and speaking lies about others because you don't want to believe what we say is true.

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
Thirdly, your interpretation of many understandings and unique paths; nowhere did Jesus said that there are many understanding.

OMG. Why would he need to? Did he assume everyone on earth is an idiot and doesn't understand that everyone has a different understanding of things and have to teach them basic things like recognizing people have differences in eye color?

Again, you betray yourself clearly here. You believe Jesus' requirement for the path to God is uniform beliefs, that you all think and act in complete lockstep. I am absolutely correct in saying this. I on the other hand believe Jesus taught that what mattered was what was in the heart.

Yoshua said:
The understanding that Jesus taught us--is the understanding only through Him from the Father.

The understanding the Jesus taught is what the heart tells you, not what your mind thinks is true. Jesus did not teach doctrines to believe in. He taught listening to the heart, finding God within, and following that. He taught things for the mind to look within. "Seek first the kingdom of God" "The kingdom of God is within you". "Search my heart, o' Lord".

You are gravely mistaken about how one understands God.

Yoshua said:
No, your assumption that I’m telling you to do how I think is not my intention. I’m refuting your statement in accordance with what Jesus had said in His words. One world religion is not Christianity, you may do some research about that.

Do you want the religion to be the only religion on earth and all other religions destroyed because they are false? Yes, or no?

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
Oh, another misinterpretation. It says it is neither Greek or Jew and not period, to stop here. This is how I see your interpretation goes. The continuation of the phrase is “but all are one in Christ.” That is in Christ (only), not in all beliefs/faiths.

Yes, according to you "in Christ", means in one and one only religious faith called Christianity. Note how you contrast being "in Christ" to other beliefs and faiths? To you Christ is a belief or a faith. Christ to you, is the religion itself.

Yoshua said:
Now, what is in Christ? The Gentiles and the Jews will be gathered into one as a believer and a follower of Christ. It is illogical to comprehend that they are one in Christ but not received and accepted Christ’s teachings.

It's incomprehensible to you, because you are trying to understand things with your mind. This is a mystical union which is not dependant on how you think and believe cognitively. If someone has received the Love of God in their hearts, they are a child of God, regardless of what they know or understand with the mind. That means they could be in any religion anywhere in the world! They don't need to be a Christian to know the Love of God in their hearts and follow that. You are badly mistaken believing otherwise. You want God to obey your logic. Thank God for us all he doesn't!

Yoshua said:
Now, in turn you ask me if I’m following Christ? Absolutely! Following Christ is not just saying to follow a name, it is a commitment to follow Him just like other major belief such as Buddhist who strictly followed the teachings of Buddha and Muslim to Allah.

I actually don't recognize that you are, considering how you view others and sit in judgment of them as you do.

Yoshua said:
How can you follow Christ without converting yourself as “denying yourself” and follow Jesus if you are not converted? To be contemplatives believers?

See? To you following Jesus is joining the Christian religion. The Christian religion has a lots and lots of differing beliefs. How can that be the path of salvation then if beliefs must be the same? Obviously converting to Christianity must not be the Way.

Yoshua said:
John 3:3
3. Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
I don’t think Jesus will say this statement if there is no need of conversion.

Converted to a religion???? Is that what you think this teaches?

Yoshua said:
Acts 3:19
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,

Converting to a religion is the same thing as turning to God? No it's not.

Yoshua said:
Acts 15:3
So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.

Nothing wrong with joining a church. It's not a requirement.

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
Who tell us that they cannot remain Hindus, Greek, Gentiles etc…? Yes, they can do so because they can choose their own path of righteousness which they believe is right to them.

And if they abide in love, they are not outside of God.

Yoshua said:
What you’re saying that Jesus did not teach a new religious system is true. He taught us to worship the Lord our God, to love God and our neighbors; to deny ourselves by following Him; to believe and receive Him.

Then why are you arguing with me?

Yoshua said:
Your idea about Christianity is not the Christianity of Christ.

Why not? Based on what you said above I don't see a difference. But let me be clear here, there is no "Christianity of Christ". Christ is not a Christian. Jesus was not a Christian. God is not a Christian.

Yoshua said:
Why it is hard for you to believe and submit that Jesus told us to follow His word?

I do follow his word. Why don't you?

Yoshua said:
It is just very surprising that you used me as the authority to submit God. That is wrong. I’m not the authority and have no power to condemn you. My basis is the word of Christ.

No, you place yourself as the judge over others, and lie to yourself that it is not your own opinions. You claim it is the word of Christ, when it is not. It is your very, very flawed and narrow interpretations of Jesus's words, which I reject.

Yoshua said:
What I observed from you are doubts with God’s word.

I have no doubts at all. I know the Bible is a work of man, not a magical book dictated out of the mouth of God without error or contradiction. I have no doubts about that at all in my mind.

But then again, what I call the Word of God, is not what you call it. You call it a book. I call it the living Truth that radiates into the world in all that exists. Your definition of "the word of God" are verbal words from men, eventually written down in unreliable formats. So, no, I don't doubt God's Word. I reject your magical beliefs that the Bible is what we should consider "God's word".

Yoshua said:
I believed that is the cause of your non-acceptance to God’s authority, and therefore thinking it as unnecessary to follow God.

I certainly accept God as "authority", inasmuch as it is the Ground of all Being. But I reject your idolatry of the Bible and your abuse of it to whack people over the head with claiming it's God's words, and not your own ideas of what those mean. You really need to wake up one of these days.

Yoshua said:
How someone who believed in a deity does not submit to his God?

Calling God "a deity" truly falls short for me in most imaginable ways. But do I "submit" to God? Sure. I prefer however to understand "obey" as align myself with God. That's truer to the meaning, than to think in terms of some outside being lording over me with a club I must submit to or suffer death. The latter is your "deity" idea.

Yoshua said:
Muslim submits to Allah and followed his teachings. Buddhist believed and followed Buddha’s teachings. Why not for Christ?

Sure, why not? I do.

Yoshua said:
Jesus submits to the Father’s authority. The disciples of Christ submitted and followed Jesus' word. How about that? I did not say you follow me.

I would never follow you. You're deeply confused. It would be a case of the sighted seeking guidance from the blind when he can already see what's ahead of him.

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
Oh my!. You twist and change the statement of Jesus, it seems that you’re the one who is right rather than Jesus. .Is there a problem with Jesus’ statement? Jesus said abide in His word, the word of Jesus (His teachings).

Jesus said abide in him. Compare this with John 15

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you

You see above where he says if you abide in me and my words abide in you? To "abide in him" means his words abide in you. Memorizing the Bible is worthless if you don't abide in Love. To say "abide in my word", means to be a Bible-banging biblical literalist is not what Jesus meant.

Yoshua said:
Ok. If you want about love, this is statement of Jesus about love. It says if a person keep His commandments, he is abiding in love. Now, if he want to prove that he love Jesus, he must keep His word. Jesus did not remove His commandment to KEEP HIS WORD.

How does someone "KEEP HIS WORD", as you just shouted? By treating them as a list of dos and don'ts that you "must obey!"? No, you keep his words by living in the Spirit. "Love is the fulfillment of the law". "Love works no ill". You can keep all the commandments your little legalistic heart desires, but if it doesn't have love, it's not fulfilling the law. "Make clean the inside of the cup," says Jesus. "Abide in me". That's through Spirit.

Yoshua said:
John 15:10
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

John 14:23
23. Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Thanks

Sure, if you abide in Love, you will naturally fulfil the law. But then there are those who climb in another way... those who try to get in by "obeying and submitting" on their hands and knees until they are bleeding, but still do not know love. They will not enter into the kingdom, because the kingdom is Love. The Gate, is in the heart.

Kelly of the Phoenix · Nov 19, 2015

InChrist said:
I don't think Jesus' purpose was about religion either, Christianity or otherwise. But it was about reconciliation between sinful humans and their Creator. According to the scriptures the only way of reconciliation is through Jesus Christ.. a Person, a living Being, the Son of God. not religion or mysticism.

How did people get right with God prior to Jesus' birth?

Unification said:
Let's test your indwelling. Hypothetically, let's say there is a place called heaven after physical death. Also, that Jesus is a literal guy awaiting.

You meet 2 Jesus's, both look the same. You have to choose which one to go to. One is your true Savior and one is Satan.

The first says, come with me.. There are no homosexuals here, no atheists, no Mystics here, Buddhists, no Islamic's, as they have never accepted me as their savior.

The second says, come with me... There are homosexuals here, atheists here, there are Buddhists here, there are Islamic's here, there are Mystics here, everyone is of equality/just, free, of peace, all different/unique but one together.

Which Jesus are you choosing to enter with?

The one who offered love to the "outcasts".

First, there is and ever will be only ONE Jesus, so I will not be faced with such a nonsensical choice when I get to heaven

There were plenty of Josh's. And why wouldn't God do a pop quiz? What's the point of Judgement Day if there's no pop quiz?

Secondly, in heaven there will be many homosexuals, mystics, atheists, Buddhists, Islamic's and even adulterers, thieves, liars, etc, who have repented and turned to the Savior Jesus Christ for forgiveness and eternal life. God's offer through Christ is equally available to everyone.

Or maybe Jesus lets them in Heaven because his followers persecuted them wrongly...

Saint Frankenstein said:
Plus, that notion is very offensive to those of us who were abused by violent parents as children (like I was).

Amen

InChrist said:
Maybe that is because when you think of one deifying self you picture someone being blatant about it in an outright conceited kind of way. Whereas, I think it is much more subtle, simply trusting one's own wisdom and ability over that of the Creator God is elevating self over God, thinking more highly of self, and basically deifying self above God.

One can be humble before the Lord without denying one's own talents. Had the engineers building the Tower of Babel been humble instead of arrogant, God wouldn't have done anything.

I don't see it as being about an all powerful Creator picking and choosing, but as the created (us) needing to realize we are wholly dependent on our Creator as our sole Source of existence and when we don't or won't the end result is starvation and finally death.

So, it's good to devote ourselves to a Creator we depend upon, (O)ne who has NO qualms about setting (H)is attack snake on us? This type of God attracts you?

I believe those who are in heaven will have already chosen to agree with God and therefore in heaven their wills will be in harmony with God and all who are in heaven.

LOL. No one ever stops to think that if that is true, how come Satan can run a rebellion in Heaven?

I think if mysticism leads one to a God of one's vain imagination (and I believe it does), then it does supplant God.

I think if a religion claims a monopoly on Truth, despite simultaneously saying all humans are untrustworthy sinners, it is simply a vain imagination designed by religious leaders to destroy the Light in our hearts.

I use the Bible, God's word. How could any finite human beings even begin to think they could understand the realities of the spiritual realm if the information were not revealed and provided by God?

How could finite beings write a bible that supposedly tells us everything about God, except it really doesn't, because God is barely a character in His own "book". If people are untrustworthy sinners, what makes the bible an exception? Liars have no ethical dilemmas with claiming to be spouting God's Word, after all...

I mean, since you take the bible seriously, then what about Jesus saying that we should not hide our light, but let it shine? I don't recall him saying "guys, go rent a lamp from God and shine His light". He specifically demands we shine OURS.

I don't think humans have any chance of knowing God through mythology

HAHAHAHAHAHA...

A one world religion certainly may not be on your list of goals. But it is the goal and has always been the goal of satan. He just gets ignorant humans to participate in his desired agenda by appealing to them in a way that draws them into his program.

So, turning everyone to Christianity is the goal of Satan?

I don't know why you keep using the name of Jesus when you outright deny His unique position as the Christ and God in the flesh.

Not all of us care what John thought.

Look up "Messiah". There were many. It's a title, a human one.

Yoshua said:
Hi Uni,

So, if that is your logical concept about God can do whatever He want including to cheat, to lie, to kill etc.. It just like you are saying a fish can be place on the dry land. A fish will die if he does not live in the water. It is the nature of the fish to live in the water, Isn't it?

Mudskippers.

sojourner said:
No, that's not what I meant. I meant that we don't need to be "protected" from "the Evil One."

While I respect Satanists, I find Satan to be a sad, quaint, unoriginal man-child...

Yoshua said:
How could Jesus become everybody’s Saviour if a person does not come to Him and follow His words?

If we are already protected from the evil one, then why of the following:
1. Why Jesus prayed to protect the Disciples from the evil one?

They ran when the Romans came. They mistreated others. Peter denied Christ three whole times in just a few hours. Jesus even called Peter "Satan". Where is our evidence they were protected?

2. Why Jesus and His disciples showed they cast out the evil-possessed?

Why can demons come back if they did it right the first time?

3. Why Paul reminded us to wear the armor of God?

You probably needed them when he threw big rocks at you.

Your idea about Christianity is not the Christianity of Christ.

Well, as Jesus didn't invent it, no duh.

What I observed from you are doubts with God’s word. I believed that is the cause of your non-acceptance to God’s authority, and therefore thinking it as unnecessary to follow God. How someone who believed in a deity does not submit to his God? Muslim submits to Allah and followed his teachings. Buddhist believed and followed Buddha’s teachings. Why not for Christ?

Is the person the goal or the Way?

How can you change what God had forbidden?

Um ... since when is eating bacon, wearing cotton/polyester blends, etc permissible then? Or do you still live like an ancient Middle Eastern Jew?

Windwalker said:
OMG. Why would he need to? Did he assume everyone on earth is an idiot and doesn't understand that everyone has a different understanding of things and have to teach them basic things like recognizing people have differences in eye color?

Because Jesus saying "the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don't need you'" is something these people like to ignore. They resent, much like the apostles, being told to share God's love with people who are different.

Windwalker · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
You forgot the phrase of Jesus “Follow Me.” Yes, as Wilber said, we have access of the great world’s religions; never did Jesus said the statement—to gain access in other beliefs.

Never did Jesus say bury your head in the sand.... or do this with your bible:

Yoshua said:
If the word “examine” by Wilber means to believe, embrace and practice world religions, that surely would not acceptable with the statement of Jesus from “denying oneself and follow Him.”

It is absolutely compatible with it, because to deny oneself and follow him does not mean commit intellectual suicide, or scoop your brains out with a spoon and dump them on the ground. God gave us minds that are curious and we are meant to learn from each other. It's too bad you choose not to follow God this way and choose instead willful ignorance. I consider that a sin against God.

Yoshua said:
But if “examine” is just to learn their traditions and practices (knowing it) surely does not contradict with the statement of Jesus.

Your idea of this is to find out how they're wrong, not to actually learn anything from others. You think everyone but you is deceived, while in reality you create your own island of self-deception by closing your mind off to the world around you. You do not let any light penetrate your iron walls you create out of fear.

Yoshua said:
Why?? Did you think that Jesus proclaiming as the truth is for other world religions to embrace and accept? How come??

Because he taught the path of love. That's accessible to anyone, regardless of their religion. God is not a Christian.

Yoshua said:
See. You believed that all are true paths while Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life (only one path is through Him).

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life incarnate. He doesn't say Christianity is the way. If you follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you are a child of God. That is accessible through all religions. Amen.

sojourner · Nov 19, 2015

Yoshua said:
Oh my! How come the offered salvation by Christ become a systematic paradigm??

Salvation for me done by Christ is an act of God for us.

John 3:16
16. "For God (act of God) so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Thanks

In the episode Measure of a Man, from, I believe, the 2nd season of Star Trek, Next Gen, Captain Picard is quoted as saying the following apropos truism:

"The courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth. For all time."

We could say the same thing about the deep, spiritual-formative work of contemplative prayer and meditation, and about the seeking of the deeper self. Spiritual formation is a crucible in which we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with the truth.

Unfortunately, nearly everything you've posted here under the guise of "truth" is, in fact, an irrelevancy.

serp777 · Nov 20, 2015

Windwalker said:
Never did Jesus say bury your head in the sand.... or do this with your bible:

View attachment 11468

It is absolutely compatible with it, because to deny oneself and follow him does not mean commit intellectual suicide, or scoop your brains out with a spoon and dump them on the ground. God gave us minds that are curious and we are meant to learn from each other. It's too bad you choose not to follow God this way and choose instead willful ignorance. I consider that a sin against God.

Your idea of this is to find out how they're wrong, not to actually learn anything from others. You think everyone but you is deceived, while in reality you create your own island of self-deception by closing your mind off to the world around you. You do not let any light penetrate your iron walls you create out of fear.

Because he taught the path of love. That's accessible to anyone, regardless of their religion. God is not a Christian.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life incarnate. He doesn't say Christianity is the way. If you follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you are a child of God. That is accessible through all religions. Amen.

Never did Jesus say bury your head in the sand

We don't actually know what Jesus said; all we know is that a few guys claimed, years after the fact, that they knew what Jesus said. Then biblical cannon was constructed and modified for a long time and was transcribed by hand numerous times over centuries; God only knows what was changed in a millennium long game of telephone and by people looking to introduce their own political agenda.

It's too bad you choose not to follow God this way and choose instead willful ignorance. I consider that a sin against God.

Well you don't get to determine what is a sin and what isn't. Don't tell God what is or isn't sin for him or if he considers the sin of a race of primates to be important. You don't determine what behaviors constitute following God. Furthermore you don't know whether God cares and you don't actually know if God exists to any significant degree of certainty unless you just blindly assume. You've got no hard evidence or good justifications to support any of those assertions. i find debates between religious assertions and interpretations to be amusing since none of them are winnable or have a superior position compared to the other. Objectively there's no reason to accept either.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life incarnate. He doesn't say Christianity is the way. If you follow the Way, the Truth, and the Life, you are a child of God. That is accessible through all religions. Amen.

Where is your evidence that it is accessible through all religions? How would you go about proving that its accessible through all religions including Scientology and the church of the flying spaghetti monster? I see no reason to assume its accessible through any religion or that its even possible in the first place or that you can be a child of God or that God cares whether you think you're a child or not, or if God exists at all for that matter. Its very unlikely you have some special knowledge which has given you access to the truth of reality.

Windwalker · Nov 20, 2015

serp777 said:
We don't actually know what Jesus said; all we know is that a few guys claimed, years after the fact, that they knew what Jesus said. Then biblical cannon was constructed and modified for a long time and was transcribed by hand numerous times over centuries; God only knows what was changed in a millennium long game of telephone and by people looking to introduce their own political agenda.

Sure, but I was referring to the texts that Yoshua quotes what Jesus said from. In those texts, nowhere is it recorded that Jesus said to sever your brain in order to keep believing what you do and call that faith.

serp777 said:
Well you don't get to determine what is a sin and what isn't.

I am free to tell him what I consider to be a sin, which is precisely how I worded it. It is my opinion it is, because I believe intellectual suicide to be denying the gift of intelligence from God. I'm perfectly free to state my opinion, and the reasons why I believe it. Personally, I don't buy into the whole list of do's and don'ts business that people call sins. I'm using common sense.

serp777 said:
Don't tell God what is or isn't sin for him or if he considers the sin of a race of primates to be important.

Who says I was? What does your common sense tell you? Do you think living in denial of facts is good, or is it bad? Is it healthy or unhealthy? Is it hitting the target, or falling short of it? What is sin, but falling short of the mark. I think it's pretty clear that wilful ignorance is falling short of the mark.

serp777 said:
You don't determine what behaviors constitute following God.

Sure I can.

serp777 said:
Furthermore you don't know whether God cares and you don't actually know if God exists to any significant degree of certainty unless you just blindly assume.

I think you are blindly assuming a lot here.

serp777 said:
You've got no hard evidence or good justifications to support any of those assertions.

How would you know? Assuming?

serp777 said:
i find debates between religious assertions and interpretations to be amusing since none of them are winnable or have a superior position compared to the other. Objectively there's no reason to accept either.

Then why are you in this thread arguing your religious assertions as true?

serp777 said:
Where is your evidence that it is accessible through all religions?

Seriously?

serp777 said:
How would you go about proving that its accessible through all religions including Scientology and the church of the flying spaghetti monster?

Through that garbage? No, it wouldn't be. But I suppose, if someone really believed in Pasta with a capital P as divine, then the interaction with the symbol could bring about a religious experience. After all, it is "through faith" one experiences higher dimensions of themselves. Have you accepted Ragu as your personal Lord and Savior? Give it a try, you might be surprised.

serp777 said:
I see no reason to assume its accessible through any religion or that its even possible in the first place or that you can be a child of God or that God cares whether you think you're a child or not, or if God exists at all for that matter.

I see no reason to assume it's not, as you are. I can make an intelligent argument why it is if you care to actually dig a little deeper than the idea that religious experiences are some sort of fantasy imagination. Unless your the sort of person who dismisses anything that comes out of masters of the various disciplines that take one into higher states of consciousness, just out of principle because it doesn't fit your ideas of what is real based on what you alone have and have not experienced? I assume you are open to rational discussion about it?

serp777 said:
Its very unlikely you have some special knowledge which has given you access to the truth of reality.

Special knowledge makes it sound so.... secretive!

I would say I have knowledge you probably lack. Not a big deal. It's accessible to anyone. I do know what I am talking about in this area, yes. I have a lot of knowledge, as well as experience.

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

Windwalker said:
I don't consider "believing the Bible" to be a requirement of anything spiritual. I don't even believe it is a requirement of being a Christian! I believe that's a requirement of your particular flavor of Christian fundamentalist cult you are attracted to. It's not a legitimate requirement for anyone else however.

Hi Windwalker,

Yes. I sense it even before. The Scriptures in the Bible (for you) is treated “as needed” only, and not the word of God nor the word of Jesus. I'm not following a cult. Try to check first with the term "cult" before you quoted it for me.

Windwalker said:
These sound like all the right words, but when I lift the bun, I see no meat patty inside. It's just dry white bread that looks like a hamburger from the description on the menu, but what you serve your customers is missing the actual meat however. Substanceless words on a page is all. The description is correct, the product is wrong. Where's the beef, Dave?

It is not sound like right words but that is the statement of Christ is saying. Let me add something about what you’ve said before.

Absolutely, that's the point. Letting go of trying to "please God", or to "build our egos", and simply resting in the Infinite. Then, we find what we have always already had, which is God within us. When you find that, with the heart, not with the mind believing the bible or some such external thing, but with the heart, then you are free. Then you know peace. Then you know joy. Then you are strengthened by Spirit itself. This is what the mystical experience is all about. And you are absolutely wrong to say it is of our own efforts. It is not. You're trying to "obey God", by following the Bible as if it were a book of laws, like Leviticus was, will never realize what these verses teach by Windwalker.

You say something about pleasing God. Let us see what the Scripture has to say :
Heb. 11:6
6. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Gal. 1:10
10. For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.

1 Thess. 2:4
but just as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who examines our hearts.

So, to please God is to be a bond-servant of Christ. Believe in Him and have faith in God. You said “Then, we find what we have always already had, which is God within us.”

How can we find it if we are not a bond-servant of Christ? Why we should seek for mystical experience? It is God who gave us mystical or supernatural experience, and not by our own efforts. Instead, Jesus once said to seek His kingdom first, and not for mystical. A follower of Christ may experience it through God.

Gal. 5:22
22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
It did not say “But the fruit of our own effort is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, then you are strengthened by Spirit itself.” This is contrary to what you think is the fruit for the mystics.

This assures that there is meat inside the bun because God is the one who initiate experiences, and not by own willingness to find, and assume it as the Spirit of God without a basis--as the Scriptures. If that would be the case, this shows it is a man made seeking for supernatural.

The fruit of the Spirit is coming from God and not from man’s effort. Only God can.

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

sojourner said:
Resurrection was, likewise "detestable" for the same reason. The concept of monotheism had to change to include the possibility of Jesus. Just as our own concept of monotheism has to change in order to see all religions in equity as pathways to the Divine.

Hi Sojourner,

What “resurrection” you are talking about? Do you mean Jesus resurrection is forbidden by God? Who and who’s authority is saying that “monotheism” had to change?

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

sojourner said:
Once again, you've managed to not answer my question. Is salvation act of God or act of humanity? If it's act of God, then our faith and our following will not save us.

Sojourner,

The salvation that God has offered to us is an act of God. There is no possibility that man can save his soul by himself to eternal life with God.

How come that our faith and following will not save us? It can’t save if a person does not follow what God want for him. There are a lot of people who like to follow his own way rather than God’s way/will.

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

sojourner said:
It's systemic because the bible was written from a communal -- not an individualistic -- perspective.

When Jesus told Nicodemus about being born-again to see the kingdom of God, is it not personal? How about
with the disciples? How about the promised Holy Spirit who will be with us forever?

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

sojourner said:
Wait a minute... I thought Christ loved the world. You don't conquer something you love. You enter into equitable relationship with it.

John 16:33
33. "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

The word “overcome” is “nikao” for victorius and conquer. The world is not for the follower of Christ. The world is not love, if it is love, then why we are told not to conform and love the world?

1 John 2:15
15. Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Rom. 12:2
2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

John 12:46
46. "I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.

The world is darkness and not light. Jesus said He is the light of the world.

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

sojourner said:
I was just going to comment the same thing. These are just formulaic words parroted without depth of understanding. A picture of a hamburger that's really ground dog meat.

What is depth of understanding to you?

Thanks

Yoshua · Nov 21, 2015

Windwalker said:
I just had that mental image this morning. I could come up with lots of other metaphors, like a plastic burger that looks like a burger, but is completely hollow inside. I do like the dog meat analogy though, as when you try to eat what is offered instead of beef, though it looks like a burger, makes you sick instead. Words like "the heart", are bastardized to mean submission to religious authority. Love is bastardized to mean strict observance of rules. Freedom is bastardized to mean you won't be annihilated when judgment day comes. Peace is bastardized to mean I don't have to worry about punishment because I follow the rules. Joy is bastardized to mean I'm happy I'm not one of those God is going to send the flames of hell. The Spirit is bastardized to mean the texts of the Bible. And so forth. The words are right, the substance of them are all wrong.

Windwalker,

From the text itself, and not me who’s saying this :

Love ( the gospel of John)
John 14:15, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him, and will disclose Myself to him."
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our abode with him.
John 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

To love Him is to :
Keep His commandments. Keep His word.

John 14:15, "If you love Me, [the result will be that] you will keep My commandments.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me [the result will be that], he will keep My word;
http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/if-anyone-loves-me-he-will-keep-my-word

Love is not rules but trusting God, and that trust resulted in obedience to His word. Same with someone you love, you trusted him and follow him.

Freedom
Freedom in Christ is gained not only by "self, it is from Christ because His followers has been crucified with Christ. It is Christ who lives with them. The truth of Christ is the one who set them free. That is the true freedom.

John 8:31-32
31. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Rom. 8:1-2
1. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Gal. 2:20
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.

Peace
Peace comes from God. In Him, you can only find peace for He is the God of peace. Jesus overcome the world, therefore we may have peace.

John 16:33
33. "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

1 Cor. 14:33
33. for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Rom. 8:6
6. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

Joy
The joy came from the Holy Spirit—for all followers of Christ. Abiding Him in His love and keeping His commandments to have the fullness of joy.

1 Peter 1:6-8
6. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7. that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8. and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,

Rom. 14:17
17. for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

John 15:10-11
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

Spirit
The Spirit of truth guides us in all truth, He cannot lie for He is the truth. He helps in our weakness, intercedes in accordance to the will of God (not our will). We are strengthened with the power of the Spirit. The Spirit is not the text that you are reading in the Bible , but it is recorded on how the Spirit of truth came to us, its role and functions. It is by faith that we believed and trust with this recorded passage from the mouth of Jesus Christ. Now, if someone does not believe with those Scriptures, that would mean it is lie for them. They probably had their own Spirit of truth.

John 16:13
13. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

1 John 4:13
13. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

Rom. 8:26-27
26. And in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27. and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

Eph. 3:16-17
16. that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man;
17. so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Now, may we hear from you to know what are the substance of each based on those Scriptures?

Thanks

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