Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??

heavenhound said:

I mean that they began from nothing and now are in the whole earth. Also, the Bethel Farms and their head-quarters are awesome. They do some very remarkable things. The little one became a thousand and that thousand a mighty nation.

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That could be said for every religion/religious group out there. All religions began from nothing but a belief and are now in the whole earth. It does little to prove that they have God with them.

Proverbs 3: 5 Trust in Jehovah+ with all your heart,And do not rely* on your own understanding.+

Psalm 146: 3 Do not put your trust in princes*Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.+

The governing body of JWs is not Jehovah. Correct?

You trust them. Correct?

Can I trust someone else with my life and my family's life AND ALSO trust Jehovah with ALL my heart? How?

Proverbs 28:26
26 Whoever trusts in his own heart is stupid,But the one who walks in wisdom will escape.

Is this scripture about walking in one's own wisdom? JWs do not do that! They all walk in the so-called wisdom of the governing body.

heavenhound said:

What's to talk about?

She is right. Paul even says so.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.
15 For I do not understand what I am doing. For I do not practice what I wish, but I do what I hate.
16 However, if I do what I do not wish, I agree that the Law is fine.
17 But now I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that resides in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for I have the desire to do what is fine but not the ability to carry it out.
19 For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice.
20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

You can't argue with those words.

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20 If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me.

Would it be just of God to put to death people whose only crime was being controlled by something they had no power over to prevent?

What might Paul's having said the following indicate as to what he there meant?

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

JayJayDee said:

Yes exactly. What Adam lost is what Christ gets back for the majority of human kind. God's purpose was always for this earth to inhabited with a perfect race of free willed beings who would love and trust Him to lead them in the right way. We are programmed for life in paradise. No knowledge of evil existed in Eden at first, but satan cunningly introduced it, tempting the vulnerable woman to exercise her free will in disobedience to her Creator. Satan did not target the woman for no reason...his main target was the man, who fell victim to the emotional attachment he had for his wife. (Rom 5:12) Instead of remaining obedient himself, he joined her in rebellion, with full knowledge of the consequences. Losing their perfection, they now could only pass on defective genes to all their offspring. Sin and death was all they could give their children.

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So you believe that moral sin impresses itself into our genes rather than into the spirit of the knowledge we pass on down the pipe, and thus being impressed on our spirits? Why then did David complain that the wicked seem to prosper and outlive the righteous? One would think that if moral sin did as you say then all gross sinners would die very young. Or, do you claim it only worked that way for Adam?

JayJayDee said:

Satan has no power to alter God's purpose at all. He never did, but he had the power to tempt humans into abusing their free will and defecting from obedience to their God. Satan was permitted to exercise this power for a time and a reason. Free willed beings needed to know what happens when their freedom of choice impinges on the freedom of others. Every horrible thing that happens in this world is the result of someone exercising their will at the expense of others. This is the most important object lesson that humans will ever learn. Only those who come to appreciate this very important lesson will understand why we are living the life we have.....and why obedience to the Creator in all things is a good policy. Obedience has always been the prime requirement of humans towards their Creator. It wasn't that hard.

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Hosea 11:7 "And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him."

Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

There is your bent towards sin. It is caused of Ignorance: Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.."

Ephesians 4:18 "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

JayJayDee said:

A return to the glorious state of the garden of Eden is assured, but the rule of the "new Jerusalem" comes from heaven to humans on earth. (Rev 21:2-5)
Just as God has always ruled his people from heaven, so it will be when his kingdom, in the hands of his Christ and those chosen to be kings and priests with him, (Rev 20:6) is established as the only rulership on earth. (San 2:44) How was God's rulership expressed over Israel? Through human representatives. The kingdom will rule from heaven over earthly subjects.

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Quote, "but the rule of the "new Jerusalem" comes from heaven to humans on earth."

Now isn't that just ducky. Where do you expect a perfect government would come from? This earth?

Heaven is the only place which could originate such teaching of men in order to bring God's way of dominion to them in his image.

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

JayJayDee said:

Do you realise that everlasting life is not immortality? They are very different. A mortal human can live forever as long as they are obedient. They are dependant upon external things to keep living. We need air, water, food and shelter to exist. If you go back to Eden you will see that God supplied all things in abundance for Adam and his wife to not only exist but to live a wonderful life here on earth forever. The one thing that would guarantee that everlasting existence was right there in the garden....."the tree of life" without which, they would die. (Gen 3:22-24) God made sure that humans never had access to this tree in their sinful state. They had food and water and shelter and oxygen, but their genetics were now flawed and so death was inevitable.

One who is granted immortality cannot be of flesh and blood. Immortals are spirit beings who require no external things to remain alive. Those who will rule with Christ are granted immortality like he has, but only because they live in the spiritual realm. Their glorified bodies will be spirit, not flesh.

"Immortal" literally means having "the power of an indestructible life"...mortals are destructible. Even angels are not immortal, despite the fact that they spirits who can live forever. It is obedience to the Creator that guarantees their continued existence. Satan and his hordes are destroyed in the symbolic "lake of fire" meaning eternal death or destruction. If satan and his demons can be destroyed, they are not immortal.

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Quote, "Immortals are spirit beings who require no external things to remain alive." You spoke it now you prove it in the scriptures. I want to see it proved in the scriptures.

All incorruptibility requires is such and immense love of God and appreciation for his lead in one's life that they could never turn away from it. And that is what God blesses with the promise of sustaining their life forever. A promise he is incapable of breaking even as we will become incapable of breaking our integrity, and therefore that constitutes immortality.

You are yet using pagan fictional ideas concerning immortality.

JayJayDee said:

Perhaps a closer examination might be in order? I believe that there are many things that "you" are not seeing.

On the contrary, they have removed the hood that is over all the other blinded eyes. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

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At least we can agree on that point. It is always easier just to convince our self that it is the other person who is blind. I have no problem admitting that.

Let's proceed to find out who it is that is blind.

savagewind said:

The JWs have published billions and billions of words. They actually don't say those things per se, though they do suggest them. But I also do not know how anyone can take those things to heart to trust and obey them. I was a JW to learn. I realized that by calling myself a JW I should obey their ordinances, but I did not believe all of them.

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What I see is that they have weak consciences:

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

That is why they get down-right petty about certain mundane avoidances.

Mountain_Climber said:

What I see is that they have weak consciences:

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

That is why they get down-right petty about certain mundane avoidances.

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Yes. They teach that a person should live for the weak ones. Jesus taught that a person should live for The Strong One. Our Father in Heaven let YOUR will be done says he. Yes, sometimes a person should make sacrifices for a brother or a sister with a weak conscience, but to make it a way of life means to be serving a weak conscience which is counter-productive imo.

djhwoodwerks said:

For the life of me I cannot even fathom how any Witness can read or hear these words, "We are God's only channel of communication to His people. We are the Spirit Directed Governing Body appointed by God. We are the only ones who have the Truth from God Himself. But, we are imperfect men and don't claim to be infallible. There could be errors in what we think we understand the Bible to say." And put their eternal trust with them. I don't mean any disrespect!

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During the days of Noah, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of Moses, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of the prophets, it was through those individuals whom God spoke.

Is it really so hard for you to believe that God continues to work in the same way today? Its not hard for me to conclude that... the scriptures certainly show that is how he has always worked in the past and I believe he still works that way today.

Pegg said:

During the days of Noah, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of Moses, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of the prophets, it was through those individuals whom God spoke.

Is it really so hard for you to believe that God continues to work in the same way today? Its not hard for me to conclude that... the scriptures certainly show that is how he has always worked in the past and I believe he still works that way today.

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Those all happened BEFORE Jesus Christ. Do JWs believe in Jesus Christ?

Does God speak through the faithful and discreet slave?
Or does the governing body reason from the scriptures?
Or both?

If God speaks through them why do they also need to reason from the scriptures?

Pegg said:

During the days of Noah, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of Moses, he alone was the channel of information from God to man.
During the days of the prophets, it was through those individuals whom God spoke.

Is it really so hard for you to believe that God continues to work in the same way today? Its not hard for me to conclude that... the scriptures certainly show that is how he has always worked in the past and I believe he still works that way today.

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I actually believe that God uses certain people to say what He wants to say in the world today.

This is what is so hard for me to believe,

*** w52 8/15 p. 497 par. 4 God’s Spirit Essential to Maturity ***

They are ‘filled with the finest of the wheat’, that is, spiritual food and understanding of the highest excellence. In fact, to them only does Jehovah reveal and ‘show his word’ and its hidden meaning. Truly, he “hath not dealt so with any [other] nation”. (Ps. 147:20) Thus this Psalm reveals the essential heart attitude in order to gain understanding by God’s spirit. It also reveals the one and only channel by which the spirit and understanding are given, that is, the Lord’s organization, “Zion,” under the headship of Christ Jesus, “through whom all things are.”—1 Cor. 8:6,

In your mind, how can this organization claiming to be God's one and only channel by which the "SPIRIT and UNDERSTANDING" are given at the same time claim their not infallible? In the July 15, 2013 Watchtower, how many times did they say, (Please refer to the above comment in bold letters)

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 2 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
2 Through the years, Jehovah’s servants have prayerfully studied Jesus’ prophecy about the last days. They have sought to get a clearer understanding

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
For a number of years, we thought that the great tribulation began in 1914 with World War I and that “those days were cut short” by Jehovah in 1918 when the war ended so that the remnant would have the opportunity to preach the good news to all nations.

*** w13 7/15 p. 3 par. 3 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
Thus, the great tribulation was thought to have three phases:


*** w13 7/15 p. 4 par. 4 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
4 Upon further examination of Jesus’ prophecy, however, we perceived that a part of Jesus’ prophecy about the last days has two fulfillments.


*** w13 7/15 p. 4 par. 5 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
We also discerned that the first part of the great tribulation did not begin in 1914.


*** w13 7/15 p. 7 par. 14 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
14 Does a further consideration of Jesus’ prophecy reveal that our understanding of the timing of other significant events needs to be adjusted?


*** w13 7/15 p. 6 par. 10 “Tell Us, When Will These Things Be?” ***
Previously, we thought that the judging of people as sheep or goats would take place during the entire period of the last days from 1914 onward.

I could go on, all the way back to 1919.


Noah, one man; Moses, one man; the prophets, "all those individuals".

Jam 1:16-17 (ESVST) 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

Why would God go from using a single individual with perfection, to having to use 8/14 men that don't pay attention to the "Spirit and Understanding" that are given to them?

djhwoodwerks said:

Why would God go from using a single individual with perfection, to having to use 8/14 men that don't pay attention to the "Spirit and Understanding" that are given to them?

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I think you misunderstand something. The writers of the bible did not necessarily understand what they were writing. I'll give you some examples:

Prophet Daniel said that he did not understand the prophetic visions given to him,

Jesus 12 apostles were told things which they did not comprehend:
The apostles were also sent on a preaching commission into the nations not knowing when the end would come:
Even Angels themselves do not fully know everything about Gods plan
What do the above Angels, Apostles and Prophets all have in common? They were all Gods servants at the time when they did not fully understand every detail.
God does not expect his servants to know every detail....this point is made plain in Luke 31 where it is said that the understanding of when all things would occur was 'hidden' from them....and even without fully understanding they were given the commission to preach the message! This shows that the finer details of our preaching message are not what determines if we have Gods direction or not. If we've made errors in the past, its almost to be expected but it certainly does not discount us from being commissioned by God.

But do you know what else these servants of the past all have in common? They all uphold Gods laws. They published and praised the name of Jehovah. They fulfilled the commission they were given. That is what constitutes a 'good and faithful slave'

Pegg said:

I think you misunderstand something. The writers of the bible did not necessarily understand what they were writing. I'll give you some examples:

Prophet Daniel said that he did not understand the prophetic visions given to him,

Dan 12:4 “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end.+ Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”...8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand;+ so I said: “O my lord, what will be the outcome of these things?”
9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.+ ​

Jesus 12 apostles were told things which they did not comprehend:

Luke 31 Then he took the Twelve aside and said to them: “Look! We are going up to Jerusalem, and all the things written by means of the prophets about the Son of man will be accomplished.*+ 32 For instance, he will be handed over to men of the nations+ and will be mocked+ and treated insolently and spat on.+ 33 And after scourging him, they will kill him,+ but on the third day he will rise.”+34 However, they did not get the meaning of any of these things, for these words were hidden from them, and they did not understand the things said.
​

The apostles were also sent on a preaching commission into the nations not knowing when the end would come:

Acts 1:6 So when they had assembled, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?”+ 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.*+ 8 But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you,+ and you will be witnesses+ of me in Jerusalem,+ in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a,+ and to the most distant part* of the earth.”

​

Even Angels themselves do not fully know everything about Gods plan

1 Peter 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for you made a diligent inquiry and a careful search.+ 11 They kept on investigating what particular time or what season the spirit within them was indicating concerning Christ+ as it testified beforehand about the sufferings meant for Christ+ and about the glory that would follow.12 It was revealed to them that they were ministering, not to themselves, but to you, regarding what has now been announced to you by those who declared the good news to you with holy spirit sent from heaven.+ Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer.

​

What do the above Angels, Apostles and Prophets all have in common? They were all Gods servants at the time when they did not fully understand every detail.
God does not expect his servants to know every detail....this point is made plain in Luke 31 where it is said that the understanding of when all things would occur was 'hidden' from them....and even without fully understanding they were given the commission to preach the message! This shows that the finer details of our preaching message are not what determines if we have Gods direction or not. If we've made errors in the past, its almost to be expected but it certainly does not discount us from being commissioned by God.

But do you know what else these servants of the past all have in common? They all uphold Gods laws. They published and praised the name of Jehovah. They fulfilled the commission they were given. That is what constitutes a 'good and faithful slave'

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That is a very fine assessment of them.

You left only one thing unaddressed.

Neither did they mount huge campaigns to preach information that later they found out was untrue. For they knew how to patiently wait on God.

And by their message containing only what the spirit had truly revealed to them, they demonstrated that they were humbly faithful to His message alone.

They hate the imperfect world, or rather the mantle of imperfection that has fallen upon people.

yaddoe said:

They hate the imperfect world, or rather the mantle of imperfection that has fallen upon people.

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It seems I recall in the mid seventies them mounting a world-wide preaching campaign which one of their articles portrayed as marching around Jericho until the walls came tumbling down. They portrayed it as Jehovah's final witness to the world which they believed would end around 1975.

There may well have been some similar conduct on a local congregational basis among those early churches as Paul's counsel to the Thessalonian congregation seems to reveal, but the spirit led leaders of God's church were not involved in going beyond in that manner.

I find no greater proof that their leaders are not led of the spirit of God. If they were led of the spirit of God they would not be constantly going beyond it.

Mountain_Climber said:

It seems I recall in the mid seventies them mounting a world-wide preaching campaign which one of their articles portrayed as marching around Jericho until the walls came tumbling down. They portrayed it as Jehovah's final witness to the world which they believed would end around 1975.

There may well have been some similar conduct on a local congregational basis among those early churches as Paul's counsel to the Thessalonian congregation seems to reveal, but the spirit led leaders of God's church were not involved in going beyond in that manner.

I find no greater proof that their leaders are not led of the spirit of God. If they were led of the spirit of God they would not be constantly going beyond it.

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Yeah, I think their story has a lot of holes in it.
The root of their problem being the belief that the Bible interprets itself.


Not too long ago, in my home not too far away, there was a knock at my front door where I met two Jehovah’s Witnesses, a husband and a wife, sharing a message about the kingdom of God. Having served a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints myself, I greeted them warmly, feeling it would be hypocritical of me if I were to go out and preach to the world about my beliefs and not be willing to listen to the beliefs of others. This little encounter was the beginning of many great studies and discussions in comparing and contrasting our differences in beliefs for months to come.As I studied with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and explored their beliefs I found that my number one question in study wasn’t how we were different—the answers to that one were easy and seemed to go on and on without end—but rather my question was why we were different. We read from the same Bible after all, not literally of course; we actually read out of two different versions of the same Bible. I read from the King James Version and they read from the New World Translation of the Bible. And what was the difference? They believed their Bible was better because itinterpreted itself while mine was interpreted by the council of King James. Because of this it had flaws and errors in translation, both intentional and unintentional, because the council of King James wanted to bend what was written to better please King James.This difference in belief, that the New World Translation interpreted itself, was, as I found, the heart of the problem. Out of all of our differences in beliefs, this was the key most important and most pivotal belief I saw that stood as the great dividing point between our two religions. This was the source of every difference in belief we had and with this identified, the only thing left to do was investigate the veracity of this religious doctrine.

Now how do the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Bible interprets itself? They believe the Bible harmonizes with itself. As they put it, there are no contradictions in the Bible; one verse simply interprets another verse. Answers are found using cross references; if one has a question about a certain doctrine, somewhere else in the Bible there is another person who clarifies what the other has said. When one views the Bible in this way, by each topic as a whole, it all becomes clear.

While it is true that there are multiple examples of cross referencing in the Bible, where one passage of scripture is directly expounding, or repeating the doctrine found in another passage of scripture, the only way the Bible could possibly interpret itself is by having a key (one verse that is set apart as being the most accurate, a Rosetta Stone).Most words in most languages have ten or more definitions making reading and understanding the interpretation of each word in a sentence a big multiple choice test. The issue with every Bible is that there is no answer key. The Jehovah’s Witnesses say the answer is found in the cross references, but there is no answer key to those cross references to verify that they have the correct translation. It is like a scavenger hunt where one clue leads someone to another clue except there is no end and one either runs around in circular reasoning, or gets lost in diving into other doctrinal topics.

To make matters worse, there is no “original” Hebrew manuscript that we have to translate the Bible from. In other words, we have copies of copies of copies and no manuscript today that is in Moses’ handwriting. The issue is that we have many different manuscripts that are about the same things, but not all of them are exactly the same. For example there is the Masoretic text, which is what the King James Bible is mostly translated from, but there is also the Septuagint which contains several of the oldest ancient translations of the Old Testament; however there are also the Dead Sea Scrolls which are the oldest of the Biblical records, but each record is a little bit different. Some manuscripts even contain completely different books, such as the book of Enoch in the Dead Sea Scrolls that some people deem as scripture while others do not. If the Bible could interpret itself there would need to be some kind of claim as to which source material is the most correct and all Bibles would be interpreted exactly the same without argument. The Jehovah’s Witnesses make the claim the Bible interprets itself and yet they have no claim as to which Biblical manuscript is the most accurate.

Perhaps the Jehovah’s Witnesses might have an argument if they claimed that someone received a revelation from God telling them the most accurate translation of the Bible. However, modern day revelation is actually something they firmly disbelieve in. They believe that God no longer speaks or works miracles among the people of our day and that God taught all that he needed to teach in the days of the Old and New Testament. Upon asking the Jehovah’s Witnesses which manuscript their Bible is translated from, their answer is that their Bible is a combination of all of them and yet there is no way of telling which ingredients are used where. It is like looking at the list of ingredients on the back a label compared to viewing the recipe that states how much of each ingredient to use, where it is to be used, and when to use it. If one were to point to a verse in the New World Translation of the Bible that is different among the biblical manuscripts and aska Jehovah’s Witness which manuscript the verse was translated from they wouldn’t know which manuscript it came from, or why that translation of that verse was deemed more accurate than the others. Somewhere someone decided that this certain interpretation in the New World Translation of the Bible was the most accurate, and that someone certainly wasn’t the Bible. The New World Translation did not write itself and yet they believe it somehow interprets itself.The third reason I don’t believe the Bible interprets itself is the fact that the Bible is full of idioms. If the Bible could interpret itself it would have a guide stating what each idiom means. For example: To covereth one’s feet or go down for water both mean to go to the bathroom (1Sam. 24:3 and Ex 7:15), a wink with the eye means to show genuine hatred (Ps. 35:19), to send hornets means to send the military (Ex. 23:28), to speak to the rock means to take the rock off the well (Num. 20:8), To have teeth as white as milk means to have abundant flocks (Gen. 29:12), And to have a bald head means to need to repent (2 Kings:23).The list goes on and on. Without the aid of modern scholars and historians, our understanding of each of those passages would be very different. The fact that we need to draw upon outside sources in order to determine what each of these idioms means leavesthe claim that the Bible interprets itself unfounded.The Bible does not interpret itself because it does not clarify what the definition of each word is. One can’t have the most accurate interpretation of something unless one has at least a claim to the most accurate source material, and we rely upon outside sources to determine the meanings of different idioms. These three issues are not reasons to distrust the Bible by any means, but rather they are reasons to distrust individual translations and interpretations of the Bible, and provide reasons to double check everything and take note of what is the same and what is different between the different translations. These three issues also show the great need for modern day revelation; the need for God to tell us personally what is true. As the King James Version of the Bible states in James 1:5, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to allmen liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

Shak34 said:

When speaking of god's anointed slave remaining on the earth are you referring to the governing body? And if so, what great signs have they worked to prove God is with them?

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The slave has done exactly what Christ has commanded them to do. They have gathered people of all nations into one united Christian brotherhood carrying out the command of Christ to go and make disciples by proclaiming the "good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nation's" before the foretold "end" comes.
(Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)
I don't see Christendom's churches preaching to the extent that Jesus commanded...do you? In fact, I don't see Christendom's churches preaching to anyone but the converted.

Who else is known all over the world for their preaching? Who are actively searching for those who might respond to the good news by preaching door to door as the apostles did? (Matt 10:11-15; Acts 20:20)

Who else knows what the kingdom is and what it will accomplish for the faithful who have not sold out to Christendom's corrupt teachings?

Who has removed themselves from "Babylon the great" in full knowledge of who she is, and why she is viewed as a harlot from God's perspective? (Rev 18:4,5)

Who has shed Christendom's false doctrines and pagan traditions which invalidates God's word?

Not the fractured disunited churches that claim to be true Christians but who are part of this world and who actively support its bloodshed. (Matt 7:21-23)

JayJayDee said:

The slave has done exactly what Christ has commanded them to do. They have gathered people of all nations into one united Christian brotherhood carrying out the command of Christ to go and make disciples by proclaiming the "good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nation's" before the foretold "end" comes.
(Matt 24:14; 28:19, 20)
I don't see Christendom's churches preaching to the extent that Jesus commanded...do you? In fact, I don't see Christendom's churches preaching to anyone but the converted.

Who else is known all over the world for their preaching? Who are actively searching for those who might respond to the good news by preaching door to door as the apostles did? (Matt 10:11-15; Acts 20:20)

Who else knows what the kingdom is and what it will accomplish for the faithful who have not sold out to Christendom's corrupt teachings?

Who has removed themselves from "Babylon the great" in full knowledge of who she is, and why she is viewed as a harlot from God's perspective? (Rev 18:4,5)

Who has shed Christendom's false doctrines and pagan traditions which invalidates God's word?

Not the fractured disunited churches that claim to be true Christians but who are part of this world and who actively support its bloodshed. (Matt 7:21-23)

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Well said Jaydee.

There will always be people who take issue with the fact that the WT has at times had wrong ideas and have had to adjust their teachings and we are not shy to admit such errors. The WT itself publicly publishes its past teaching errors. But wouldnt it be worse if they failed to do so???
The fact is, besides religious teaching, the WT has consistently upheld Gods righteous standards and morals and taught us how to live according to a standard befitting for people professing to reverence God. They have rid themselves of false babylonish beliefs and customs which are still prominently adhered to by the rest of the christian world. And they are the only ones to publicize the name of Jehovah in obedience to Jesus prayer that Gods name be sanctified.

Im yet to see a christian denomination do what the WT has done over the past 100 odd years.

Pegg said:

Well said Jaydee.

There will always be people who take issue with the fact that the WT has at times had wrong ideas and have had to adjust their teachings and we are not shy to admit such errors. The WT itself publicly publishes its past teaching errors. But wouldnt it be worse if they failed to do so???
The fact is, besides religious teaching, the WT has consistently upheld Gods righteous standards and morals and taught us how to live according to a standard befitting for people professing to reverence God. They have rid themselves of false babylonish beliefs and customs which are still prominently adhered to by the rest of the christian world. And they are the only ones to publicize the name of Jehovah in obedience to Jesus prayer that Gods name be sanctified.

Im yet to see a christian denomination do what the WT has done over the past 100 odd years.

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This thread isn't about the good the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is doing. It is about the HEAD of the CCOJW saying no other person, group or organization may hear from God. You have Jesus bound up with you. You have not allowed him to disagree with you. That is what the thread is about. OK?

Pegg, post: 4317596, member: 23994"]Is that really the way you think a loving and merciful God would behave toward us? Does what you say here really reflect the view of God?

Do you really think God would send his own beloved son to die in our behalf even before we knew anything about it?

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Yes, it is what I believe the Scriptures teach. Our God is loving and merciful, but He is also a just God.

2 Thess. 1:8
...In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:..

Your second question makes no sense. You may want to rephrase it.

Yes, Jesus did die for the ungodly.

What does Jesus say about the ungodly who do not repent?

Pegg said:

The spirits in prison were not dead people. When mankind dies, thats it....they dont exist anymore according to the scriptures.

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What were the spirits in prison if they weren't dead people?