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Some differences between the Æsir and the Olympian gods

Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
While it is possible to trace some similarities between Greek and Norse mythology, or even Norse and Indo-Iranian mythologies, there are some interesting differences that can be observed when reading the Edda and comparing it to Homeric literature.
While I can see some general parallels between the two pantheons, for example with the elder Titans who fathered Zeus (Cronus and Rhea) and the Jötunn (popularizes as 'giants') ancestry of Odin (through Borr and Bestla), the narratives in the Norse and Greek mythologies display some interesting differences.
The Greek gods often quarrel between themselves over control of heroes and humans who have divine ancestry, they take sides during the Trojan war and directly and relentlessly interfere in the affairs of mortals, something which causes plenty of tension on Mount Olympus. However, we rarely see this with the Norse gods. This continues to another difference, while the Greek gods were masters of earthly affairs, and their Olympian existence had no mortal threats, the Norse gods' existence is filled with uncertainties which culminate in Ragnarok, when the gods will battle the giants and many of them will die. The universe in which the Æsir live in always seems to be threatened and its balance at stake. The World Tree is facing constant decay and the gnawing of Nidhogg at its root, the god Baldr dies which is linked to the future arrival of Ragnarok, and Loki, his children, and the giants pose various dangers to the gods.
Another interesting element is that the Norse gods have weaknesses which counters their strengths. For example Odin loses his eye, Tyr his hand.
It seems that life for the Æsir is much tougher than the life of the Olympian gods.

Some of the questions I'm pondering are: is this a reflection of Norse society? for example are mythological elements such as the feud and reconciliation between the Æsir and the Vanir a reflection of class tensions in Norse society?
Is life in the Norse universe reflect the challenges of the Norse people? and if so, what do you feel it most strongly reflects?
What can you trace from the Norse religion to general Indo-European and Indo-Iranian ancient religions? what do you find to be truly distinct in Norse mythology? and how do you relate it to Norse society?
 
E

EyeofOdin

Active Member
The Europeans sculpted their gods how they would like to be and how they aspired to be. The Northern Germanic peoples were very passionate about sacrificing oneself for the cause of the war, so it would be very honorable to die in battle or to lose an arm or leg or hand in a fight. It would be very honorable to Northern Europeans to be willing to give up a hand, an eye, an ear, etc. for the good of knowledge or for the sake of tying town and enemy.

The Greeks however adored beauty and sought to evolve from the barbaric ways to the civilized and logic centered lifestyles. One aspect of the Greek idea of beauty is symmetry, something a few of the Nordic Gods lack. Almost all of the gods are perfectly symmetrical, and Hephaestus who was born with a shriveled foot was shunned from Olympus.

So any differences in the gods would be a result in a difference in values and culture between the tribes of Scandinavia, France, Germany and England and the cities of Greece and Rome.
 
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Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Caladan said:
While it is possible to trace some similarities between Greek and Norse mythology, or even Norse and Indo-Iranian mythologies, there are some interesting differences that can be observed when reading the Edda and comparing it to Homeric literature.
While I can see some general parallels between the two pantheons, for example with the elder Titans who fathered Zeus (Cronus and Rhea) and the Jötunn (popularizes as 'giants') ancestry of Odin (through Borr and Bestla), the narratives in the Norse and Greek mythologies display some interesting differences.
The Greek gods often quarrel between themselves over control of heroes and humans who have divine ancestry, they take sides during the Trojan war and directly and relentlessly interfere in the affairs of mortals, something which causes plenty of tension on Mount Olympus. However, we rarely see this with the Norse gods. This continues to another difference, while the Greek gods were masters of earthly affairs, and their Olympian existence had no mortal threats, the Norse gods' existence is filled with uncertainties which culminate in Ragnarok, when the gods will battle the giants and many of them will die. The universe in which the Æsir live in always seems to be threatened and its balance at stake. The World Tree is facing constant decay and the gnawing of Nidhogg at its root, the god Baldr dies which is linked to the future arrival of Ragnarok, and Loki, his children, and the giants pose various dangers to the gods.
Another interesting element is that the Norse gods have weaknesses which counters their strengths. For example Odin loses his eye, Tyr his hand.
It seems that life for the Æsir is much tougher than the life of the Olympian gods.

Some of the questions I'm pondering are: is this a reflection of Norse society? for example are mythological elements such as the feud and reconciliation between the Æsir and the Vanir a reflection of class tensions in Norse society?
Is life in the Norse universe reflect the challenges of the Norse people? and if so, what do you feel it most strongly reflects?
What can you trace from the Norse religion to general Indo-European and Indo-Iranian ancient religions? what do you find to be truly distinct in Norse mythology? and how do you relate it to Norse society?
Click to expand...

I believe encounters with frost giants are peculiar to the Aesir and probably reflect the migration to the north. Since I believe the frost giants are Atlanteans that escaped Atlantis whe it wet under I hae my doubts as to whether they retained enough technology to be still considered gods and therfore addversaries of Norse gods. No doubt the common people may have come into conflict as the Aesir migrated into their territory.

I was amazed to see the Greek gods claim to have created humans from dust the same as the Aesir claim. Maybe it is a common history.
 
MissDiscerner

MissDiscerner

Eternal student
From my POV, the Aesir are more distant than the Olympians. And the Olympians... I think they are grumpy.

Disclaimer - I don't want anything with any of the two pantheons! I ONLY read about other persons' experiences! :D
 
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Sees

Sees

Dragonslayer
Remember the myths are complex use of parable, symbolism, allegory with sophisticated spiritual truths and realities hidden in entertaining stories. You can gain some understanding into parts of the nature of Odin, Thor, etc. but it's not plainly in your face or on your plate. They are not exactly the Odin or Thor of the Eddas. Often a code is used where in the specific Odin does not stand for Odin at all but divine being/nature...Thor stands for most basic, animal nature of man, and so on.

In stories with boasting of violence and sexual exploits there is a story of a spiritual journey. Hidden from the masses and especially outsiders or "the church"

Practices of the people and personal experiences open up more views.
 
G

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
As the Greek Sallustius said, myths can express truths that are theological, psychological, or physical. But sometimes they are just good stories that happen to feature gods as the protagonists!
 
The Emperor of Mankind

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
EyeofOdin said:
The Europeans sculpted their gods how they would like to be and how they aspired to be. The Northern Germanic peoples were very passionate about sacrificing oneself for the cause of the war, so it would be very honorable to die in battle or to lose an arm or leg or hand in a fight. It would be very honorable to Northern Europeans to be willing to give up a hand, an eye, an ear, etc. for the good of knowledge or for the sake of tying town and enemy.

The Greeks however adored beauty and sought to evolve from the barbaric ways to the civilized and logic centered lifestyles. One aspect of the Greek idea of beauty is symmetry, something a few of the Nordic Gods lack. Almost all of the gods are perfectly symmetrical, and Hephaestus who was born with a shriveled foot was shunned from Olympus.

So any differences in the gods would be a result in a difference in values and culture between the tribes of Scandinavia, France, Germany and England and the cities of Greece and Rome.
Click to expand...

In response to the part in bold:

He was rejected by his mother (Hera) because she thought him ugly but the other gods welcomed him back once he demonstrated his powers and skills (via the entrapped throne he gave to Hera as revenge for his initial rejection). The moral, I think, is that the gods don't judge people based on their initial impressions or outward appearances, but rather on what a person is like beneath the surface. And we should do the same.
 
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Salek Atesh

Salek Atesh

Active Member
Caladan said:
Some of the questions I'm pondering are: is this a reflection of Norse society? for example are mythological elements such as the feud and reconciliation between the Æsir and the Vanir a reflection of class tensions in Norse society?
Click to expand...

I'd hazard a guess it reflected tribal tensions more than class tensions, which was a more prominent concern to early Norse peoples. The distinctions and wars between your nation and the other nations were likely more concerning the distinctions between jarl, churl, and thrall.

Caladan said:
Is life in the Norse universe reflect the challenges of the Norse people? and if so, what do you feel it most strongly reflects?
Click to expand...

The challenges and hardships of their geological location may have resulted in the fatalistic approach the Norse myths have, as well as the "still going to give it my all" approach to the fatalism. We're all going to die at Ragnarok, but hey, everyone still plans to fight against evil on that day. It, I feel, is a rather interesting approach. It's unusual at the very least for someone to accept a hopeless apocalyptic scenario in which they and all they love will certainly perish, and yet strive to fight against that scenario despite the certainty of its outcome.

Caladan said:
What can you trace from the Norse religion to general Indo-European and Indo-Iranian ancient religions?
Click to expand...

Thor and Tyr are both present throughout the Proto-Indo-European world, from Western Europe all the way to Hinduism. The "two classes" of Gods, Aesir and Vanir in the case of Asatru, are rather universal as well, comparable to Asuras and Devas of the Indo-Iranians.

Caladan said:
what do you find to be truly distinct in Norse mythology? and how do you relate it to Norse society?
Click to expand...

The organization is quite different. In many PIE offshoots, Tyr/Zeus/Dyaus Pter retains his position as chief of the gods, but in the Germanic he is supplanted by Wodan/Odin. This probably reflects a change in values, moving from Tyr who is associated with the rule of law, to Odin who is more warlike. There's probably a lot that can be read into the ousting of the Sky Father in favor of the Allfather, but I'm not a sociologist so I lack the skill to examine it closer.

Unique to the Norse is Loki, who isn't even found amongst the other Germanic faiths. Probably showing the importance of a boundary-breaker figure.

A random difference that probably only reflects the weapons preferred by different cultures is Thor's Hammer, which is never a hammer (or any consistent weapon really) in varying myths. In some cultures he has a club, in others an axe, etc.
 
G

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
One point about using poetry as a source is that it's written for an audience and by human authors. Homer, writing for warrior kings, is dismissive of a god like Dionysos, whose worship was democratic. Norse poets, with a similar audience, play up Odin, although other evidence (Adam of Bremen, sagas) suggests that Thor was more important for most people.
 
N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Odin is interesting amongst the European pagan pantheons. Namely, what he is. Who is the High God of Continental Germanic Paganism? Tyr/Tiwas, God of Law. Who's the King of Olympus? Zeus-Jupiter, Storm-God. You'll find that those tend to be the Highest on High in most Indo-European pagan beliefs. Storm Gods & Gods of Law & Order.

But what is Odin?

He's the God of Wisdom, the Berserk, Poetry, Magic & Death. What are his names? Hangagud, Hangatyr, Valdr galga, Valtyr, Hrafnagud, Svafnir, Valfodr, Valgaut, Vidur. What do those names mean?

Lord of the Hanged
Hanged-God
Lord of the Gallows
Slain-God
Raven-God
Sleep-Bringer (as in, eternal sleep)
Father of the Slain
Gaut(Gothi/Godi/'Priest') of the Slain
Killer

So. Why do the Norse buck the tradition of a Law-Giver or Storm-God being the head of the Pantheon?
 
N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
DavidMcCann said:
One point about using poetry as a source is that it's written for an audience and by human authors. Homer, writing for warrior kings, is dismissive of a god like Dionysos, whose worship was democratic. Norse poets, with a similar audience, play up Odin, although other evidence (Adam of Bremen, sagas) suggests that Thor was more important for most people.
Click to expand...
Odin was the God of the Warrior. Not the God of the Soldier, the God of the Warrior. The one who lives for blood & battle. He was also the God of the Skalds, Bards & the Nobles, because in Scandinavia & Saxon Britain the noble houses claimed descent from Wotan/Woden/Oden/Odin.

Thor, however, was very much the People's God. He was the Friend of Mankind, Protector of Thralls & Defender of Midgard. That is why Mjolnir became THE symbol of opposition against the White Christ.

It is not just us latter-day Heathens who boast about nails & Hammers.
 
The Emperor of Mankind

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Nietzsche said:
Odin was the God of the Warrior. Not the God of the Soldier, the God of the Warrior. The one who lives for blood & battle. He was also the God of the Skalds, Bards & the Nobles, because in Scandinavia & Saxon Britain the noble houses claimed descent from Wotan/Woden/Oden/Odin.

Thor, however, was very much the People's God. He was the Friend of Mankind, Protector of Thralls & Defender of Midgard. That is why Mjolnir became THE symbol of opposition against the White Christ.

It is not just us latter-day Heathens who boast about nails & Hammers.
Click to expand...

You say Odin was not a god of Law; but wasn't it the Skalds and Bards who passed clan traditions and laws down the generations, with the Nobles governing using those laws?
 
Whiterain

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
Nietzsche said:
They still swore oaths to Tiwaz/Tiuw/Tiw/Tir/Tyr. Tyr was the Law-speaker. Also, in the Continental Germanic faith Tyr was never replaced by Odin as the Highest God.
Click to expand...

It's a bit of a debacle, 1300-1000 years later, after centuries of religious oppression, archaeologists and pagans are trying to decide if Odin's succession took place. The Edda says he became Chieftain after he sacrificed himself and resurrected. It's in the Edda but numerous people say Tiwaz is the Chief God.

But as far as the similarities between the Aesir and Olympians is fickle, their myth's are entirely different, as most are.

These were different Kingdoms with different Gods and different legends from thousands of years ago.

I think the title 'God' may have gone horribly awry, but there's no proving it. What archaeology can do is find their tombs.

Odin is commonly honored in Germany, there are statues of him aloof in the country. There's also a few of Poseidon, but, I am uncertain if they're the same.

UCpOLMS.jpg
 
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N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Whiterain said:
It's a bit of a debacle, 1300-1000 years later, after centuries of religious oppression, archaeologists and pagans are trying to decide if Odin's succession took place. The Edda says he became Chieftain after he sacrificed himself and resurrected. It's in the Edda but numerous people say Tiwaz is the Chief God.
Click to expand...
Here's the thing; the word for 'God' in Old Norse? Tyr. So there was some manner of change somewhere, though the most common one I hear(and the one I like most) is that Tyr stepped down after he gave up his arm to Fenrir.
 
Whiterain

Whiterain

Get me off of this planet
Nietzsche said:
Here's the thing; the word for 'God' in Old Norse? Tyr. So there was some manner of change somewhere, though the most common one I hear(and the one I like most) is that Tyr stepped down after he gave up his arm to Fenrir.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, like the Greek or Latin words are Zeus and Deus, which literally means God.

I start to get frustrated when the Church becomes a counterpart of the cause.

I try to be understanding but it's completely insane.

It's just wishful thinking a comity of pagans or archaeologists turn up something they want to make official. Unless we go under another reign of Religious oppression, with technology I think it's over and there's hope.
 
Jainarayan

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
They all come from the Proto-Indoeuropean word *deiwos (the * means it was reconstructed backwards, it was never written anywhere)... Deus, Theos, Zeus, Dyaus, Jupiter (from Jovis Pater from Dyaus Pitr), Deva, Tyr, Tiwaz. All mean 'God'.
 
Salek Atesh

Salek Atesh

Active Member
Nietzsche said:
Here's the thing; the word for 'God' in Old Norse? Tyr. So there was some manner of change somewhere, though the most common one I hear(and the one I like most) is that Tyr stepped down after he gave up his arm to Fenrir.
Click to expand...

I've heard that one too. The reasoning being that he could no longer be Chief God after he had broken his oath to Fenrir, since he betrayed his own nature as God of Oaths. But Fenrir needed to be bound for the safety of the world, which makes Tyr's sacrifice all the more severe, important, and profound.
 
N

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Salek Atesh said:
I've heard that one too. The reasoning being that he could no longer be Chief God after he had broken his oath to Fenrir, since he betrayed his own nature as God of Oaths. But Fenrir needed to be bound for the safety of the world, which makes Tyr's sacrifice all the more severe, important, and profound.
Click to expand...
But he didn't break his oath. He said that if they don't release him, Fenrir could have his hand. Fenrir got his hand.
 
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