Lent

metis · Mar 4, 2015

Carlita said:
That is actually insulting. I am Catholic by sacrament but not by belief. I still have soft spot for the Church because the Church (the people) helped me a lot with seeing spirituality from a Christian's eyes.

To tell a Catholic that he is not Christian based on his Church's affiliations with paganism is, in my opinion, terrible. That is like my going to you and saying your practices come from paganism, so you don't have the true relationship with Christ. I don't know you; so, I can't say that. Regardless of my practices and what I think is the True worship to Christ has nothing to do with what Christ wants of each individual He calls to Him.

I mean, that is like my saying, you're not Christian because you're protestant. Protestants are Lutherans as well as Episcopalians and both share many Catholic elements but they are not Catholics.

They are all Christian. Each individual from one degree or another is growing in their relationship with Christ. There is no denominational label in a relationship with Christ. No matter what building you feel they belong to has nothing to do with what they personally belief in at the core.

Basically, saying a Catholic is not Christian is telling a protestant his denomination came on its own without any foundations it split from (the Catholic Church).

That is just a sad statement to say. I really don't know how to reply in honesty when anyone judges another person's spirituality and growth in it all because they disagree.

Carlita, let me say that you are doing the moral thing here and acting as the adult, so please do not get dismayed at the pathetic bigotry you're facing. I highly doubt that people here are going to turn against you for being the kind and respectful person that you are.

crhodes9898 · Mar 4, 2015

metis said:
Carlita, let me say that you are doing the moral thing here and acting as the adult, so please do not get dismayed at the pathetic bigotry you're facing. I highly doubt that people here are going to turn against you for being the kind and respectful person that you are.

Agreed, she is very respectful and we've had a good conversation so far.
But...You shall know men by their fruits. Any tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be hewn down and cast in the fire.

metis · Mar 4, 2015

crhodes9898 said:
Agreed, she is very respectful and we've had a good conversation so far.
But...You shall know men by their fruits. Any tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be hewn down and cast in the fire.

Maybe you should consider taking your own advice.

Anyhow, I've had enough of your pathetic bigotry to last for a long time, and if you really think that the adults who frequent this website are going to be impressed by your childish behavior, guess again. It seems that you have nothing serious to offer here for us here at RF.

crhodes9898 · Mar 4, 2015

metis said:
Maybe you should consider taking your own advice.

Anyhow, I've had enough of your pathetic bigotry to last for a long time, and if you really think that the adults who frequent this website are going to be impressed by your childish behavior, guess again. It seems that you have nothing serious to offer here for us here at RF.

I have a good passage for you, read it at your will.
Matthew 7:5

Unveiled Artist · Mar 4, 2015

crhodes9898 said:
Agreed, she is very respectful and we've had a good conversation so far.
But...You shall know men by their fruits. Any tree that doesn't produce good fruit will be hewn down and cast in the fire.

Thank you.

I do respectfully say, though, that any tree that doesn't produce good fruits are just trees that need better planting and tendering, and acknowledged that it's growth will not be a perfect in the making.

In this same analogy, the tree (the person) who has, what you say is bad fruits, are growing in Christ.. .and Christ is planting the seeds, tending the leafs and branches, helping the Christian grow strong. (If Catholicism is as bad as you say, maybe he or she will know this when Christ shows them. That does not mean they do not have a true relationship with Him; it just means, that like everyone else, they need to be tendered from time to time)

If someone is a Christian and states that he is so, he will always be a tree growing whether or not the fruits he bares depends on how he grows. Christ takes care of him either way.

That's what I learned being in the Church. Once you are in the Church (the Body of Christ; part of Christ), you will always be a part of Christ. It is like a marriage. When a partner goes a way, depending, they may eventually come back. Marriage is a vow till death. The same with the Church. They may see you fall astray, but you always can renew your vows to Christ. It just takes maturity in yourself In Him to do so. As long as someone sees negativity in another person's spiritual growth, their fruits won't shine brightly no matter how healthy it is.

I know you are only trying to help. I learned in public speaking, you have to speak in the tone best understood by your audience. I do not understand through rude and insulting language. I get a different impression. Evangelizing may work better with education rather than pointing out the discrepancy by comparing pearls with what you (implied) as coal.

I hope we can learn from each other instead.

metis · Mar 4, 2015

crhodes9898 said:
I have a good passage for you, read it at your will.
Matthew 7:5

I read it and taught it (long story), but maybe you should read Micah 6:8. Nah, I'll post it for you:

He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

crhodes9898 · Mar 4, 2015

Carlita said:
In this same analogy, the tree (the person) who has, what you say is bad fruits, are growing in Christ.. .and Christ is planting the seeds, tending the leafs and branches, helping the Christian grow strong. (If Catholicism is as bad as you say, maybe he or she will know this when Christ shows them. That does not mean they do not have a true relationship with Him; it just means, that like everyone else, they need to be tendered from time to time)

I hope we can learn from each other instead.

Well, have you ever thought that the tender could be someone else besides Christ? Maybe the planter is here trying to point something out to you. Maybe the Tender sent the planter to make a specific point, and for you to see it.

crhodes9898 · Mar 4, 2015

metis said:
I read it and taught it (long story), but maybe you should read Micah 6:8. Nah, I'll post it for you:

He has showed you, O man, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

No need to mock. You can put the verse and I would've went and read it.
Okay I've read it, and I don't see your point. I do it every day, or at least try my best to.

Glaurung · Mar 4, 2015

crhodes9898 said:
Well technically I never said that but, there is some authority present sure. Now the bible is just a book containing smaller books. The actual bible itself is not important. However the books within it are contain truth.

You object to Lent on the basis that it is not in the explicit words of the Bible, so it is fair to assume that you hold some kind of a sola scriptura position; otherwise your original post makes no sense. I point out that objecting to Lent and other long established observances of the Church on the basis that it's not directly mentioned in the Bible is self-defeating, because with that very same reasoning I can object the authority of Scripture on the very basis that Scripture never lays out Scripture. It was complied and set by the authority of the Church, and the Church has that authority because Christ gave it to the Apostles whose succession continues to this day.

By objecting to the authority of the Church and the legitimacy of Lent, you undermine the basis for the authority of Scripture. It's a "you can't have you cake and eat it too" thing.

crhodes9898 · Mar 5, 2015

Tlaloc said:
You object to Lent on the basis that it is not in the explicit words of the Bible, so it is fair to assume that you hold some kind of a sola scriptura position; otherwise your original post makes no sense. I point out that objecting to Lent and other long established observances of the Church on the basis that it's not directly mentioned in the Bible is self-defeating, because with that very same reasoning I can object the authority of Scripture on the very basis that Scripture never lays out Scripture. It was complied and set by the authority of the Church, and the Church has that authority because Christ gave it to the Apostles whose succession continues to this day.

By objecting to the authority of the Church and the legitimacy of Lent, you undermine the basis for the authority of Scripture. It's a "you can't have you cake and eat it too" thing.

Haha...you are a very confused person.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 5, 2015

Let me repeat:

(If Catholicism is as bad as you say, maybe he or she will know this when Christ shows them. That does not mean they do not have a true relationship with Him; it just means, that like everyone else, they need to be tendered from time to time)

Such a negative point of view in your post below. If Catholicism is as bad as you say it is, maybe Christ and Christ only is showing them the correct way in His timing not yours and not mine.

If someone says he Catholic, you automatically assume what they practice and even more sadly, where their heart is in their practices. Calling yourself pearl and them swine. If you cannot see the beauty in someone else's relationship with Christ and judging them by what you learn and your own experiences (not theirs, unfortunately) with the Church, how are you ever going to see beyond those pagan walls that block you from another person's relationship with Christ? Can you be brothers with other Christians if you tear down their walls by how they practice?

I disagree with protestant faith. You cannot be Christian without the sacraments.

Likewise, there are some things in Catholicism that I disagree with.

I do not believe you have to be Catholic to be Christian. I also don't believe Peter was the only apostle given "the keys" to continue Christ's ministry. Every--every Christian--has the keys to evangelize Christ's words.

It does not matter what I believe about these two denimonations. As long as they are growing in Christ Christ will show them the way, not me and not you.

While you may hate Catholicism till your teeth bleeds; at least learn from their relationship with Christ rather than comparing their relationship yours and and pagan Christian teachings (not relationship) that influenced all denominations faith/practice.

crhodes9898 said:
Well, have you ever thought that the tender could be someone else besides Christ? Maybe the planter is here trying to point something out to you. Maybe the Tender sent the planter to make a specific point, and for you to see it.

Also, Christianity is part paganism faith. It was built from the Church and no one questioned it's "pagan influence" until Romanism came in. When people saw the formality with which the Church promotes, they accuse the Roman Catholic Church for being pagan forgetting that they (as protestants) came from this very Church and still have pagan practices too.

Just because you can "see" if you like the paganism in one Church doesn't mean it hasn't influenced the teachings of other churches as well.

That's probably why people are non-denominational. That is something I disagree with; because, without having communion with people of like mind, how can you, as an individual, be part of the Body of Christ? The Body is made up of people, and those people are the Church. Wherever there is more than one person, Christ is present.

crhodes9898 · Mar 5, 2015

Carlita said:
Let me repeat:

(If Catholicism is as bad as you say, maybe he or she will know this when Christ shows them. That does not mean they do not have a true relationship with Him; it just means, that like everyone else, they need to be tendered from time to time)

Such a negative point of view in your post below. If Catholicism is as bad as you say it is, maybe Christ and Christ only is showing them the correct way in His timing not yours and not mine.

If you are waiting for a sign, you probably will not get one. However, God didn't come down and talk to the people in the Old Testament. He sent prophets, His servants, to preach His work and will. Sure He came down as Christ in the New Testament but most of the time on this Earth was with His servants preaching His news.
Ever heard of the Placebo effect? Yea that's what is happening here.

metis · Mar 5, 2015

Carlita said:
Let me repeat:

(If Catholicism is as bad as you say, maybe he or she will know this when Christ shows them. That does not mean they do not have a true relationship with Him; it just means, that like everyone else, they need to be tendered from time to time)

Such a negative point of view in your post below. If Catholicism is as bad as you say it is, maybe Christ and Christ only is showing them the correct way in His timing not yours and not mine.

If someone says he Catholic, you automatically assume what they practice and even more sadly, where their heart is in their practices. Calling yourself pearl and them swine. If you cannot see the beauty in someone else's relationship with Christ and judging them by what you learn and your own experiences (not theirs, unfortunately) with the Church, how are you ever going to see beyond those pagan walls that block you from another person's relationship with Christ? Can you be brothers with other Christians if you tear down their walls by how they practice?

I disagree with protestant faith. You cannot be Christian without the sacraments.

Likewise, there are some things in Catholicism that I disagree with.

I do not believe you have to be Catholic to be Christian. I also don't believe Peter was the only apostle given "the keys" to continue Christ's ministry. Every--every Christian--has the keys to evangelize Christ's words.

It does not matter what I believe about these two denimonations. As long as they are growing in Christ Christ will show them the way, not me and not you.

While you may hate Catholicism till your teeth bleeds; at least learn from their relationship with Christ rather than comparing their relationship yours and and pagan Christian teachings (not relationship) that influenced all denominations faith/practice.

Also, Christianity is part paganism faith. It was built from the Church and no one questioned it's "pagan influence" until Romanism came in. When people saw the formality with which the Church promotes, they accuse the Roman Catholic Church for being pagan forgetting that they (as protestants) came from this very Church and still have pagan practices too.

Just because you can "see" if you like the paganism in one Church doesn't mean it hasn't influenced the teachings of other churches as well.

That's probably why people are non-denominational. That is something I disagree with; because, without having communion with people of like mind, how can you, as an individual, be part of the Body of Christ? The Body is made up of people, and those people are the Church. Wherever there is more than one person, Christ is present.

This Catholic/Protestant debate that's been going on for several centuries interested me to the point whereas I decided to do the research myself, and the thing I mostly focused on was how the church of the first three centuries (pre-Constantine) saw itself. I read everything I could get my mitts on from early church writings, especially focusing on the 2nd century authors. After a couple of years of doing this research, it was clear that the Catholic position was more in tune with the early church leaders and authors, but certainly not 100% so.

It would take a very long time to go through all of this, and I really have some better use of my time, so I'll pass on going into that kind of depth. However, I will take some specific questions if asked.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church.

crhodes9898 · Mar 5, 2015

metis said:
This Catholic/Protestant debate that's been going on for several centuries interested me to the point whereas I decided to do the research myself, and the thing I mostly focused on was how the church of the first three centuries (pre-Constantine) saw itself. I read everything I could get my mitts on from early church writings, especially focusing on the 2nd century authors. After a couple of years of doing this research, it was clear that the Catholic position was more in tune with the early church leaders and authors, but certainly not 100% so.

It would take a very long time to go through all of this, and I really have some better use of my time, so I'll pass on going into that kind of depth. However, I will take some specific questions if asked.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church.

thank you for being respectful, I grew up in a Catholic Church

metis · Mar 5, 2015

I'm always respectful to those who show respect to others, but I'm unfortunately quite intolerant to those who don't-- just one of my many flaws.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 5, 2015

When I first took the sacraments, I did a lot of researching myself. I tried reading the Bible through but stopped at Joshua. The first time it was Leviticus; so, I guess I've improved.

I found out a lot of things on both sides of the fence, at lost of pros and cons. I notice a lot of Catholic practices are New Testament approaches with OT practices. So, it's a combination of the two. The Roman influence, though, I understand why it looks "paganish"...but I never say paganism as bad; so, it's not something I'd support as Christians being pagan for following a faith with some pagan roots.

I actually noticed a lot of educated people here both protestant and catholic; and, I always wondered, if they have the same education--same information from different sources--then why isn't there an agreement with the facts? Why does one side see Mary as sinless and the other as a sinner when God said Mary is blessed? Things like that.

You're Catholic now? What pulled you from protestant faith?

metis said:
This Catholic/Protestant debate that's been going on for several centuries interested me to the point whereas I decided to do the research myself, and the thing I mostly focused on was how the church of the first three centuries (pre-Constantine) saw itself. I read everything I could get my mitts on from early church writings, especially focusing on the 2nd century authors. After a couple of years of doing this research, it was clear that the Catholic position was more in tune with the early church leaders and authors, but certainly not 100% so.

It would take a very long time to go through all of this, and I really have some better use of my time, so I'll pass on going into that kind of depth. However, I will take some specific questions if asked.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church.

metis · Mar 5, 2015

Carlita said:
When I first took the sacraments, I did a lot of researching myself. I tried reading the Bible through but stopped at Joshua. The first time it was Leviticus; so, I guess I've improved. I found out a lot of things on both sides of the fence, at lost of pros and cons. I notice a lot of Catholic practices are New Testament approaches with OT practices. So, it's a combination of the two. The Roman influence, though, I understand why it looks "paganish"...but I never say paganism as bad; so, it's not something I'd support as Christians being pagan for following a faith with some pagan roots.

I actually noticed a lot of educated people here both protestant and catholic; and, I always wondered, if they have the same education--same information from different sources--then why isn't there an agreement with the facts? Why does one side see Mary as sinless and the other as a sinner when God said Mary is blessed? Things like that.

You're Catholic now? What pulled you from protestant faith?

No, I'm Jewish as I converted to Judaism roughly 20 years ago. I left my Protestant church back in 1968 largely because of the anti-science positions and the racism.

crhodes9898 · Mar 5, 2015

Carlita said:
When I first took the sacraments, I did a lot of researching myself. I tried reading the Bible through but stopped at Joshua. The first time it was Leviticus; so, I guess I've improved. I found out a lot of things on both sides of the fence, at lost of pros and cons. I notice a lot of Catholic practices are New Testament approaches with OT practices. So, it's a combination of the two. The Roman influence, though, I understand why it looks "paganish"...but I never say paganism as bad; so, it's not something I'd support as Christians being pagan for following a faith with some pagan roots.

I actually noticed a lot of educated people here both protestant and catholic; and, I always wondered, if they have the same education--same information from different sources--then why isn't there an agreement with the facts? Why does one side see Mary as sinless and the other as a sinner when God said Mary is blessed? Things like that.

You're Catholic now? What pulled you from protestant faith?

I am no longer Catholic, I am Christian.

Unveiled Artist · Mar 5, 2015

crhodes9898 said:
I am no longer Catholic, I am Christian.

Wait. That is confusing. You did not believe Jesus as your Lord and Savior and have a relationship with Jesus when you were Catholic?

What was your relationship based on as a Catholic if not Jesus?

crhodes9898 · Mar 5, 2015

Carlita said:
Wait. That is confusing. You did not believe Jesus as your Lord and Savior and have a relationship with Jesus when you were Catholic?

What was your relationship based on as a Catholic if not Jesus?

My relationship as a Catholic was based on all the man made traditions that the Catholic church wants you to focus on.

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