Lent

[Unveiled Artist]

No amount of "renaming" pagan names and practices with "Catholic" names and celebrations would ever make this pure and worth practicing. Making it Catholic would make it just the same as it was five thousand years ago.

Since Catholics are not pagans, regardless of where their history of practices come from and whatever name it is used, they are still Christian.

I can be a Hindu and my practices (only in this scenario) may come from Muslim origins. Just because I am praying like a Muslim does not make me a Muslim--I am still Hindu regardless.

Protestants miss the point of having a relationship with Christ as His Body. A Christian's practices (whether seeing the Eucharist as His blood and Body or as a symbol) does not make one true and the other false. Yes, Christianity has pagan origins (protestant and Catholic) that does not diminish their devotion to Christ regardless of the denomination.

Anti-Catholics make Catholic practices as if Catholics are using the act of murder and call it "worshiping Christ." I don't understand how an anti-catholic cannot see the difference between pagan worship and worship to Christ.

Paganism is a poly theistic faith. It means someone who is not a Christian (not Catholic). It is a collection of ethnic faiths around the world with rituals and ways of worship that may be foreign to you and are not wrong.

Christianity is not polytheistic. Catholics are Christian (You can't be Catholic and pagan at the same time), and the only thing I can think of that makes Christianity "pagan" is that both protestants and Catholics use rituals in their worship to Christ and that Christianity is an ethnic faith. It has been watered down heavily by "non-denominations" and the context to which Jesus practice the traditions of His time is taken out of place because those outside denominations take tradition out all together which with Jesus never taught.

Instead, He taught not to put traditions over His Father. He also taught to obey certain practices such as Sabbath and fasting. He also said why do we argue about who worships on what day. Why do we care who eats what on what day. Why argue about the basics (which I think that is in Romans).

--

When it comes to lent, why do you not want to reflect on Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? Why do you not want to take away things that keep you from your God? Why do you not want to display some respect in showing God is more important to you than your flesh?

While anti-catholics are look at Priests, Catholics are looking to God. While anti-catholics are looking at transubstatiation and bread/wine, Catholics are looking at God's blessings from Christ Himself. While anti-catholics are looking at purple robes and crucifixes, Catholics are looking at formal respect for their Savior and symbols (like pictures any anything else) that represents their Savior (not idolism).

Why not put your belief into practice?

 

[metis]

People in the Old Testament did things that seemed right in their eyes, it didn't get them far...

Really? Maybe you're not aware of the fact that we're still around, the miracle of which impressed the Dalai Lama so much that he requested that a group of Jews visit him in India and help explain how we managed to survive even with all the adversity we faced in the diasporah. If we had not had to face so much hostile bigotry, undoubtedly we would even have done better as many killed us in the name of God.

But this thread is not about us, right?

 

[Koldo]

Has anyone been keeping track of how many guys claim to have found the one true religion ( and, curiously, they all have different interpretations ) ?
I have lost count shortly after ten thousand.

 

[crhodes9898]

Since Catholics are not pagans, regardless of where their history of practices come from and whatever name it is used, they are still Christian.

I can be a Hindu and my practices (only in this scenario) may come from Muslim origins. Just because I am praying like a Muslim does not make me a Muslim--I am still Hindu regardless.

Protestants miss the point of having a relationship with Christ as His Body. A Christian's practices (whether seeing the Eucharist as His blood and Body or as a symbol) does not make one true and the other false. Yes, Christianity has pagan origins (protestant and Catholic) that does not diminish their devotion to Christ regardless of the denomination.

Anti-Catholics make Catholic practices as if Catholics are using the act of murder and call it "worshiping Christ." I don't understand how an anti-catholic cannot see the difference between pagan worship and worship to Christ.

Paganism is a poly theistic faith. It means someone who is not a Christian (not Catholic). It is a collection of ethnic faiths around the world with rituals and ways of worship that may be foreign to you and are not wrong.

Christianity is not polytheistic. Catholics are Christian (You can't be Catholic and pagan at the same time), and the only thing I can think of that makes Christianity "pagan" is that both protestants and Catholics use rituals in their worship to Christ and that Christianity is an ethnic faith. It has been watered down heavily by "non-denominations" and the context to which Jesus practice the traditions of His time is taken out of place because those outside denominations take tradition out all together which with Jesus never taught.

Instead, He taught not to put traditions over His Father. He also taught to obey certain practices such as Sabbath and fasting. He also said why do we argue about who worships on what day. Why do we care who eats what on what day. Why argue about the basics (which I think that is in Romans).

--

When it comes to lent, why do you not want to reflect on Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? Why do you not want to take away things that keep you from your God? Why do you not want to display some respect in showing God is more important to you than your flesh?

While anti-catholics are look at Priests, Catholics are looking to God. While anti-catholics are looking at transubstatiation and bread/wine, Catholics are looking at God's blessings from Christ Himself. While anti-catholics are looking at purple robes and crucifixes, Catholics are looking at formal respect for their Savior and symbols (like pictures any anything else) that represents their Savior (not idolism).

Why not put your belief into practice?

Most Catholics if not all, are if fact pagan. Or at least take part in the paganism within the Catholic church. Sure they believe in Christ or this figure they call "Jesus" but that doesn't mean that they are doing Yahuah's Will. Americans celebrate cinco de mayo, most having no idea what it is even about, but use it as an excuse to celebrate something; to go out and get drunk at bars. Just because Americans celebrate it, doesn't make it a completely new practice. The real purpose behind celebrating it would still be the celebration of the victory at the Battle of Puebla. Same would go for with Lent. Just because Catholics claim to take it as their own and rename it or try to reform it, doesn't mean that they aren't "celebrating" its original purpose.

Protestants miss the point of having a relationship with Christ as His Body

If you are referring to the Eucharist, and Christ being "fully present" in it, well then there is another problem right there.
First of all, how is that not considered cannibalism. Even since you don't believe that "Jesus" is God, you can't make that argument that you aren't eating a person, you're eating God. However if you were to make that argument I would still say that God became flesh, and became a human, therefore it would be some sort of cannibalistic practice.

Here's a question for you then. If "Jesus" is fully present within the Eucharist, then what is the point of a second coming if he is already here? Every Sunday Catholics "re-sacrifice" the final sacrifice, therefore re-crucifying Christ.

 

[metis]

Has anyone been keeping track of how many guys claim to have found the one true religion ( and, curiously, they all have different interpretations ) ?
I have lost count shortly after ten thousand.

Can we add to that all those who claim that all religions are false and that they personally know what the truth is? Please-- pretty please???

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the Bible, Jesus never taught to pray to Him, only to His Father.
Yet Christians pray to Christ all the time. It is not wrong, and it is just not in scripture.

In the Bible, Jesus never taught to have any Christian paraphernalia. Only worship to His Father, study scripture (OT), and worship as one Church. Yet every Christian store has some form of paraphernalia from tapes, jewelry, key chains, and books, cards, and translated scripture. It is not in the Bible and it is not wrong.

In the Bible, never taught that we should not pray standing up. Yet, millions of Christians do so all the time. It is not in the Bible and it is not wrong.

What is against God's commands are not what is absent from the Bible, it's what contradicts God's words. A lot of Catholic teachings are not in the Bible and many are in no contradiction with His Word because of it.

 

[crhodes9898]

Really? Maybe you're not aware of the fact that we're still around, the miracle of which impressed the Dalai Lama so much that he requested that a group of Jews visit him in India and help explain how we managed to survive even with all the adversity we faced in the diasporah. If we had not had to face so much hostile bigotry, undoubtedly we would even have done better as many killed us in the name of God.

But this thread is not about us, right?

Yes, of course we're still around, they were too. We aren't going to get "destroyed" for committing sin. But we will be judged based on our sins. Then at that point you will either die again, or have eternal life.

 

[crhodes9898]

In the Bible, Jesus never taught to pray to Him, only to His Father.
Yet Christians pray to Christ all the time. It is not wrong, and it is just not in scripture.

In the Bible, Jesus never taught to have any Christian paraphernalia. Only worship to His Father, study scripture (OT), and worship as one Church. Yet every Christian store has some form of paraphernalia from tapes, jewelry, key chains, and books, cards, and translated scripture. It is not in the Bible and it is not wrong.

In the Bible, never taught that we should not pray standing up. Yet, millions of Christians do so all the time. It is not in the Bible and it is not wrong.

What is against God's commands are not what is absent from the Bible, it's what contradicts God's words. A lot of Catholic teachings are not in the Bible and many are in no contradiction with His Word because of it.

Agreed. However the Catholic church contradicts most if not all of Yahuah's commands. Read the book of Revelation.

 

[metis]

Yes, of course we're still around, they were too. We aren't going to get "destroyed" for committing sin. But we will be judged based on our sins. Then at that point you will either die again, or have eternal life.

Prove it.

Nah, never mind.

 

[crhodes9898]

Prove it.

Revelation 20:15

 

[metis]

Revelation 20:15

In your Bible.

"Scientific or historical evidence", in my "Bible".

But back to "Nah, never mind"-- you've managed to derail your own thread, which is a mortal sin here (see RF 6:66).

 

[crhodes9898]

In your Bible.

"Scientific or historical evidence", in my "Bible".

But back to "Nah, never mind"-- you've managed to derail your own thread, which is a mortal sin here (see RF 6:66).

The train is still on the rails, however you've jumped off the train.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The second part has nothing to do with the Eucharist.

Protestants miss the point of having a relationship with Christ as His Body

His Body is His Church--the members of Christ. If you go into any Catholic Church during service, you will see people--that is His body regardless the denomination.

Most Catholics if not all, are if fact pagan. Or at least take part in the paganism within the Catholic church. Sure they believe in Christ or this figure they call "Jesus" but that doesn't mean that they are doing Yahuah's Will.

Same would go for with Lent. Just because Catholics claim to take it as their own and rename it or try to reform it, doesn't mean that they aren't "celebrating" its original purpose.

First, were are you from? Please don't belittle Americans. They have as much right to worship and authenticity in their worship and practices to the true Christ just as you and anyone else.

Also, that is a complete insult to any Catholic. That is like a Catholic coming to you and saying you are not Christian because you are not part of the Church. Both are wrong and very insulting to both Christians--Catholic and protestant.

You cannot be pagan and Catholic at the same time. A pagan is someone who is not Catholic and who in the technical (rather than modern) sense of the term, is polytheistic and is very ethnic in origin. Pagans are in all parts of the world in different countries with or without Christianity affiliated with it. So, to use the word pagan is not helping much.

If you want to discredit the Catholic faith (Which is unchristian to do), you have to say what type of paganism (what Country) of practices they are using. Even more so, you have to demonstrate how that ethnic practice has anything to do with how a Catholic sees their relationship with Christ within how they worship (looking at their personal relationship with Christ not the outer parts all anti-Catholics distaste).

Plus, you cannot pin someone as a pagan because they hold a Catholic label and the way they bow or hold hands. You do not know their relationship with the True Yeshuah. No one should assume someone else's spiritual path in life based on a label.

If you are referring to the Eucharist, and Christ being "fully present" in it, well then there is another problem right there. First of all, how is that not considered cannibalism. Even since you don't believe that "Jesus" is God, you can't make that argument that you aren't eating a person, you're eating God. However if you were to make that argument I would still say that God became flesh, and became a human, therefore it would be some sort of cannibalistic practice.

Where did you get Cannibalism at? No Catholic sees Jesus' fingers, toes, and hands when they take the Eucharist. Physically present is saying it is a fact that Jesus said "this is my blood; this is my body." The fact that it is in scripture and because it is in scripture, Catholics take it as a fact/literal/truth. Facts do not have to apply to the five senses. Perfect example: you say God is real, it is a fact. There is no evidence of God. There are different types of fact. Not all are present by five senses only.

To say they are eating Jesus is silly. They are taking Him in flesh and in Spirit. Catholicism puts a heavy emphasis on external means of worship not just inner means; they go together--just as your body and spirit.

Here's a question for you then. If "Jesus" is fully present within the Eucharist, then what is the point of a second coming if he is already here? Every Sunday Catholics "re-sacrifice" the final sacrifice, therefore re-crucifying Christ.

If I'm understanding Revelations correctly, in the second coming, He comes with His physical body and spirit. If you go to Mass and see the Eucharist, you will see bread and wine, you will not see Jesus toes and head and hair and so forth. You are misinterpreting the nature of the Eucharist.

Many Catholics may disagree with how I express this, but, because you cannot see his toes and fingers, it is not literal, it is spiritual in nature. For example, my grandmother's favorite food, among many, is cornbread. The last time we sat and ate (this was years ago) was cornbread; that is how I remember her. So, when she passed away, every time I ate cornbread, I remember her. Her Spirit is in the food I eat. To a Christian, it is more powerful because unlike me where my grandmother never told me she will be the spirit in the food I will eat once she passed; Jesus said He IS the food they eat and the wine they drink after He is resurrected.

They aren't re-crucifying Jesus.

"Behold the Lamb of God. Behold Him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed is He who comes to the supper of the Lamb." (Looking at how they used to slain the Lamb in sacrifice and eat of its flesh; it is no different with Christ).

Jesus (His physical body and Spirit) has not climbed down from heaven to be the hosts. If that were the case, the priest would be holding a person's body not bread/wine.

Instead, the priest is reinacting what Christ said to His disciples--this is my blood and body. He shows it to the whole congregation so they know they are in communion with each other when they consume of the food (just as the disciples did when they were around the table--they didn't just look at the food Jesus gave them, they ate it too)

Then the priest breaks the bread (you can't break Jesus) and gives it to everyone to be in communion with Jesus (He and His followers) through His blood and body.

Many cultures put a great value to food. Food holds the family together. It is a thanksgiving. Many Americans do not know the importance of food in other countries. Christianity is not a modern faith. Food is very important in this faith as well.

Hence, why Jesus uses food to represent His body (mana, nourishment) and blood (life, sacrifice, passion).
--
What's throwing you off is it is food and you feel its an inanimate object. Also, transubstantiation is throwing you off too. It's just blessing the bread and wine which in itself by God's blessing not the priest's.
--
Basically, God is restating what He said at the Lord's Supper. It is misleading, because you see a priest do it rather than Jesus.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Agreed. However the Catholic church contradicts most if not all of Yahuah's commands. Read the book of Revelation.

I have, and it's terribly confusing.

I can think of a few things that contradict the Bible. (The Pope gracefully changed it to some degree). Some teachings are just not in the Bible--that does not mean the Bible is against it.

The claim that "you are not Christian unless you're part of the Church."

The Bible says anyone who believes Jesus as Lord and Savior and follows Jesus' commandments are followers of Christ. The brotherhood is not a prerequisite for salvation.

The claim that the Pope is infallible.

The Bible doesn't say anyone will replace Christ. The apostles and those who come after Him will continue to teach Christ's message about His Father; but only His Father is infallible.

Everything else seems like Roman influence. Well, Christianity is part Roman faith. Also, you have Orthodox Catholic.

I do not see paganism as bad. It is very sad that anyone can view other religions in that light. Christianity doesn't make a good impression of accepting faiths that they disagree with.

Even this discussion is like what the Catholics did the protestants and the pagans likewise. They belittled them and killed them because they didn't agree and believe as they did. Protestants are no different. Hence, why you have so much history about them too.

Best not to relive history, and see Catholics as people who worship Christ in Truth (just as you).

As soon as you speak ill of someone else, it's like the inquisition all over again.

Truly horrible.

 

[crhodes9898]

The second part has nothing to do with the Eucharist.

His Body is His Church--the members of Christ. If you go into any Catholic Church during service, you will see people--that is His body regardless the denomination.



First, were are you from? Please don't belittle Americans. They have as much right to worship and authenticity in their worship and practices to the true Christ just as you and anyone else.

Also, that is a complete insult to any Catholic. That is like a Catholic coming to you and saying you are not Christian because you are not part of the Church. Both are wrong and very insulting to both Christians--Catholic and protestant.

You cannot be pagan and Catholic at the same time. A pagan is someone who is not Catholic and who in the technical (rather than modern) sense of the term, is polytheistic and is very ethnic in origin. Pagans are in all parts of the world in different countries with or without Christianity affiliated with it. So, to use the word pagan is not helping much.

If you want to discredit the Catholic faith (Which is unchristian to do), you have to say what type of paganism (what Country) of practices they are using. Even more so, you have to demonstrate how that ethnic practice has anything to do with how a Catholic sees their relationship with Christ within how they worship (looking at their personal relationship with Christ not the outer parts all anti-Catholics distaste).

Plus, you cannot pin someone as a pagan because they hold a Catholic label and the way they bow or hold hands. You do not know their relationship with the True Yeshuah. No one should assume someone else's spiritual path in life based on a label.

I am a born American, and live in the United States. However I would not consider it insulting to Catholics, I would just say that they are in a shock that causes disbelief. However If you are a Catholic, you are not a Christian, your a Catholic. Discrediting the Catholic faith is not an "unchristian" thing to do. It is the complete opposite. (Rev 18:4) It is more like tough love.

 

[crhodes9898]

I have, and it's terribly confusing.

I can think of a few things that contradict the Bible. (The Pope gracefully changed it to some degree). Some teachings are just not in the Bible--that does not mean the Bible is against it.

The claim that "you are not Christian unless you're part of the Church."

The Bible says anyone who believes Jesus as Lord and Savior and follows Jesus' commandments are followers of Christ. The brotherhood is not a prerequisite for salvation.

The claim that the Pope is infallible.

The Bible doesn't say anyone will replace Christ. The apostles and those who come after Him will continue to teach Christ's message about His Father; but only His Father is infallible.

Everything else seems like Roman influence. Well, Christianity is part Roman faith. Also, you have Orthodox Catholic.

I do not see paganism as bad. It is very sad that anyone can view other religions in that light. Christianity doesn't make a good impression of accepting faiths that they disagree with.

Even this discussion is like what the Catholics did the protestants and the pagans likewise. They belittled them and killed them because they didn't agree and believe as they did. Protestants are no different. Hence, why you have so much history about them too.

Best not to relive history, and see Catholics as people who worship Christ in Truth (just as you).

As soon as you speak ill of someone else, it's like the inquisition all over again.

Truly horrible.

The teaching doesn't have to be in the bible, but the teaching contradicts the bible's.
Well The Antichrist will attempt to replace him, along with other minor parallels, such as the pope.
Paganism is very bad! It has been condemned many times in both the New and Old Testaments.
John 16:2 is a good verse for you to look at.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is actually insulting. I am Catholic by sacrament but not by belief. I still have soft spot for the Church because the Church (the people) helped me a lot with seeing spirituality from a Christian's eyes.

To tell a Catholic that he is not Christian based on his Church's affiliations with paganism is, in my opinion, terrible. That is like my going to you and saying your practices come from paganism, so you don't have the true relationship with Christ. I don't know you; so, I can't say that. Regardless of my practices and what I think is the True worship to Christ has nothing to do with what Christ wants of each individual He calls to Him.

I mean, that is like my saying, you're not Christian because you're protestant. Protestants are Lutherans as well as Episcopalians and both share many Catholic elements but they are not Catholics.

They are all Christian. Each individual from one degree or another is growing in their relationship with Christ. There is no denominational label in a relationship with Christ. No matter what building you feel they belong to has nothing to do with what they personally belief in at the core.

Basically, saying a Catholic is not Christian is telling a protestant his denomination came on its own without any foundations it split from (the Catholic Church).

That is just a sad statement to say. I really don't know how to reply in honesty when anyone judges another person's spirituality and growth in it all because they disagree.

I am a born American, and live in the United States. However I would not consider it insulting to Catholics, I would just say that they are in a shock that causes disbelief. However If you are a Catholic, you are not a Christian, your a Catholic. Discrediting the Catholic faith is not an "unchristian" thing to do. It is the complete opposite. (Rev 18:4) It is more like tough love.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, what is paganism to you? I never came across "bad" paganism. Everyone has difference beliefs. No one is worse or better than the other.

The teaching doesn't have to be in the bible, but the teaching contradicts the bible's.
Well The Antichrist will attempt to replace him, along with other minor parallels, such as the pope.
Paganism is very bad! It has been condemned many times in both the New and Old Testaments.
John 16:2 is a good verse for you to look at.

 

[Glaurung]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your question at all. It sounds like your saying the bible isn't in the bible...

You say that the Bible is the sole authority and utterly sufficient in all matters of Christian faith. Despite the fact that Bible never actually states this, the Bible itself never defines what is and isn't the Bible. (The cannon is never stated). The question becomes; if there is no authority beyond the explicit words of the Bible, on what authority was the cannon decided if there is no cannon explicitly stated by that very cannon? The very reasoning of Sola scriptura is self defeating and was never even a concept until the sixteenth century.

 

[crhodes9898]

You say that the Bible is the sole authority and utterly sufficient in all matters of Christian faith. Despite the fact that Bible never actually states this, the Bible itself never defines what is and isn't the Bible. (The cannon is never stated). The question becomes; if there is no authority beyond the explicit words of the Bible, on what authority was the cannon decided if there is no cannon explicitly stated by that very cannon? The very reasoning of Sola scriptura is self defeating and was never even a concept until the sixteenth century.

Well technically I never said that but, there is some authority present sure. Now the bible is just a book containing smaller books. The actual bible itself is not important. However the books within it are contain truth.

Of which cannon are you referring?