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Secular: not-Secular

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Is there a country whose constitution expressly mentions that it is the Secular Country?

If not; why term it like that?

Your thoughts please

Everybody is welcome to comment having a religion or no-religion.

Regards
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The US Constitution does not use the word "secular" or the phrase "secular country". However, there are -- according to one Constitutional lawyer I've read -- at least six ways in which the Constitution expresses the idea that the United States is to be a secular country.

For instance, in prohibiting any religious oath or test for office. In creating a separation of church and state. In not referring to any specific god, nor associating any specific god with the nation. And so forth.
 

Alt Thinker

Older than the hills
Interestingly, the 1918 and 1936 Constitutions of the Soviet Union mention religious freedom and separation of religion from the state.

1918 Constitution Article 2

13. For the purpose of securing to the workers real freedom of conscience, the church is to be separated from the state and the school from the church, and the right of religious and anti-religous propaganda is accorded to every citizen.

Article 2 (R.S.F.S.R. Constitution)


1936 Constitution Chapter XI

ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of anti-religious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.

ARTICLE 135. Elections of deputies are universal : all citizens of the U.S.S.R. who have reached the age of eighteen, irrespective of race or nationality, religion, educational and residential qualifications, social origin, property status or past activities, have the right to vote in the election of deputies and to be elected, with the exception of insane persons and persons who have been convicted by a court of law and whose sentences include deprivation of electoral rights.

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1936/12/05.htm
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Brazil claims to follow "Laicité", roughly meaning secularism, in its constitution.

In practice that is not really very much the case, but the text is there anyway.

The perception is that it would be dangerous for personal freedoms to allow religions to have more of an ostensive presence in State decisions.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Your etymology seems to be correct, and it is certainly possible that there is some difference in meaning between secularism and laicism. But if there is, it is not readily apparent.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think "Laicité" is not equivalent of Secular; "Laicité" means:



or laity.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Traditionally, people would talk about the clergy and the laity as two separate groups. In this sense of the word, "laity" began to mean something like "not the clergy" and then over time, this became "not religious".

I see a slight difference between secularism and laicite, at least in practice: IMO, secularism is about creating a government that is blind to religion, while laicite is about creating a society without religious influence. Most of the time, these goals are complementary, but sometimes, they're not... for example, I would consider the hijab bans proposed as part of French "laicite" to go against the principles of secularism as I understand them.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Is there a country whose constitution expressly mentions that it is the Secular Country?
The question is sloppy at best. So, for example, one could easily envision a 'Religious Country' (resulting from the proclivities of the population) in a secular polity. A state that formally insists on the separation of church and state is, formally, a secular state.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Your etymology seems to be correct, and it is certainly possible that there is some difference in meaning between secularism and laicism. But if there is, it is not readily apparent.

Thanks for your appreciation.

I think the word laity was used to distinct it from the priesthood/clergy/seminary peoples/zealots class and it meant common/ordinary people not belonging to the above class.

Later as the society evolved it was used or misused as a term.

Likewise the term secular; it does not entail that a society in which religion and state are kept separate would definitely entail freedom of religion, freedom of speech or have best human rights like equality and equitable.

Regards
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Is there a country whose constitution expressly mentions that it is the Secular Country?

If not; why term it like that?

Your thoughts please

Everybody is welcome to comment having a religion or no-religion.

Regards

yes. France. art.1
France is a democratic, social, secular republic
 
Last edited:

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Brazil claims to follow "Laicité", roughly meaning secularism, in its constitution.

In practice that is not really very much the case, but the text is there anyway.

The perception is that it would be dangerous for personal freedoms to allow religions to have more of an ostensive presence in State decisions.

Brzilian secularism is even present in the flag: Ordem e Progresso
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I understand that Russian Constitution did have separation of state and religion; yet the atrocities it committed to the society did occur.
It is the essence or spirit that is needed; not the name.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
yes. France. art.1
France is a democratic, social, secular republic

I would suggest you to read the following:

France[edit]

Laïcité, a product of French history and philosophy, was formalized in a 1905 law providing for the separation of church and state, that is, the separation of religion from political power.

The French version of separation is called laïcité. This model of a secularist state protects the religious institutions from state interference, but with public religious expression also to some extent limited. This aims to protect the public power from the influences of religious institutions, especially in public office. Religious views which contain no idea of public responsibility, or which consider religious opinion irrelevant to politics, are less impinged upon by this type of secularization of public discourse.

Former President Nicolas Sarkozy criticised "negative laicite" and talked about a "positive laicite" that recognizes the contribution of faith to French culture, history and society, allows for faith in the public discourse and for government subsidies for faith-based groups.[31] He visited the Pope in December 2007 and publicly emphasized France's Christian roots, while highlighting the importance of freedom of thought,[32] advocating that faith should come back into the public sphere.François Hollande took a very different position during the 2012 presidential election, promising to insert the concept of laïcité into the constitution (the French constitution already says that the French Republic is "laïque" but there is no article of the constitution about laïcité).[33]
Nevertheless, there are certain entanglements in France which include:

• The most significant example consists in two areas, Alsace and Moselle (see here for further detail), where the Concordat between France and the Holy See still prevails because the area was under German control when the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State was passed. Catholic priests as well as the clergy of three other religions (Lutheran, Calvinist, and Jewish) are paid by the state, and schools have religion courses. Moreover, the Catholic bishops of Metz and Strasburg are named (or rather, formally appointed) by the French Head of State on proposition of the Pope, which interestingly makes the French President the only temporal power in the world to formally have retained the right to appoint Catholic bishops, all other catholic bishops being appointed by the Pope.

• The French President is ex officio a co-prince of Andorra, where Roman Catholicism has a status of state religion (the other co-prince being a Spanish bishop). Moreover, French heads of states are traditionally offered an honorary title of Canon of the Papal Archbasilica of St. John Lateran, Cathedral of Rome. Once this honour has been awarded to a newly elected president, France pays for a choir vicar, a priest who occupies the seat in the canonial chapter of the Cathedral in lieu of the president (all French presidents have been male and at least formally Roman Catholic, but if one were not, this honour could most probably not be awarded to him or her.) The French President also holds a seat in a few other canonial chapters in France.

• Another example of the complex ties between France and the Catholic Church consists in the Pieux Établissements de la France à Rome et à Lorette: five churches in Rome (Trinità dei Monti, St. Louis of the French, St. Ivo of the Bretons, St. Claude of the Free County of Burgundy, and St. Nicholas of the Lorrains) as well as a chapel in Loreto belong to France, and are administered and paid for by a special foundation linked to the French embassy to the Holy See.

• In Wallis and Futuna, a French overseas territory, national education is conceded to the diocese, which gets paid for it by the State.

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I understand that Russian Constitution did have separation of state and religion; yet the atrocities it committed to the society did occur.

Certainly, political atrocities are not fueled only by religion.

The first Russian Constitution was from 1906, the second from 1918. There were others in 1924/1925, 1936/1937 and 1977/1978.

The 1906 does not seem to have been very lay at all:

Chapter Five (Articles 57-58) concerned the coronation and anointing of a new sovereign, which was to take place "according to the rite of the Greco-Russian Orthodox Church."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Constitution_of_1906

The 1918 Constitution claimed outright to be establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, so I don't think we should expect its regime to be particularly enlightened and fair.

Seeing how many others there were since, and how recent they all are, it seems clear that democracy and fairness are simply not well-understood, well-consolidated concepts for the Russian people.



It is the essence or spirit that is needed; not the name.

Regards

The essence of...?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I would suggest you to read the following:

France[edit]

Laïcité, a product of French history and philosophy, was formalized in a 1905 law providing for the separation of church and state, that is, the separation of religion from political power.

The French version of separation is called laïcité. This model of a secularist state protects the religious institutions from state interference, but with public religious expression also to some extent limited. This aims to protect the public power from the influences of religious institutions, especially in public office. Religious views which contain no idea of public responsibility, or which consider religious opinion irrelevant to politics, are less impinged upon by this type of secularization of public discourse.

Former President Nicolas Sarkozy criticised "negative laicite" and talked about a "positive laicite" that recognizes the contribution of faith to French culture, history and society, allows for faith in the public discourse and for government subsidies for faith-based groups.[31] He visited the Pope in December 2007 and publicly emphasized France's Christian roots, while highlighting the importance of freedom of thought,[32] advocating that faith should come back into the public sphere.François Hollande took a very different position during the 2012 presidential election, promising to insert the concept of laïcité into the constitution (the French constitution already says that the French Republic is "laïque" but there is no article of the constitution about laïcité).[33]
Nevertheless, there are certain entanglements in France which include:

• The most significant example consists in two areas, Alsace and Moselle (see here for further detail), where the Concordat between France and the Holy See still prevails because the area was under German control when the 1905 French law on the Separation of the Churches and the State was passed. Catholic priests as well as the clergy of three other religions (Lutheran, Calvinist, and Jewish) are paid by the state, and schools have religion courses. Moreover, the Catholic bishops of Metz and Strasburg are named (or rather, formally appointed) by the French Head of State on proposition of the Pope, which interestingly makes the French President the only temporal power in the world to formally have retained the right to appoint Catholic bishops, all other catholic bishops being appointed by the Pope.

• The French President is ex officio a co-prince of Andorra, where Roman Catholicism has a status of state religion (the other co-prince being a Spanish bishop). Moreover, French heads of states are traditionally offered an honorary title of Canon of the Papal Archbasilica of St. John Lateran, Cathedral of Rome. Once this honour has been awarded to a newly elected president, France pays for a choir vicar, a priest who occupies the seat in the canonial chapter of the Cathedral in lieu of the president (all French presidents have been male and at least formally Roman Catholic, but if one were not, this honour could most probably not be awarded to him or her.) The French President also holds a seat in a few other canonial chapters in France.

• Another example of the complex ties between France and the Catholic Church consists in the Pieux Établissements de la France à Rome et à Lorette: five churches in Rome (Trinità dei Monti, St. Louis of the French, St. Ivo of the Bretons, St. Claude of the Free County of Burgundy, and St. Nicholas of the Lorrains) as well as a chapel in Loreto belong to France, and are administered and paid for by a special foundation linked to the French embassy to the Holy See.

• In Wallis and Futuna, a French overseas territory, national education is conceded to the diocese, which gets paid for it by the State.

Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

If France hadn't been a secular (or laic, it is the same thing) republic, the state would have never promulgated a law about gay marriages.

with all due respect, why does it bother you that France is secular?
 
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