Thought Experiment: switch "muslim" and "non-believer" in the Quran

I just heard of an interesting thought experiment, I thought I'd share it here...

If we were to go through the Quran and every time the Quran mentions believers or Muslims we changed that to be non-believers, and every time the Quran mentions non-believers or infidels we changed that to be Muslims, would Muslims still claim the book was peaceful?

I'm mostly curious to hear what Muslims would think, but all feedback is welcome

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defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

icehorse said:

I just heard of an interesting thought experiment, I thought I'd share it here...

If we were to go through the Quran and every time the Quran mentions believers or Muslims we changed that to be non-believers, and every time the Quran mentions non-believers or infidels we changed that to be Muslims, would Muslims still claim the book was peaceful?

I'm mostly curious to hear what Muslims would think, but all feedback is welcome

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

Click to expand...

Hi icehorse,
I did not get what you mean, do you mean the comparison repeatedly mentions between the reward for the believers (heaven) and the punishment for the non believers (hell)? Kindly clarify?

Regards,
mahmoud

Icehorse is asking if Muslims would still think the Qur'an is peaceful, if you switch all references to believers (or Muslims) to non-believers, and vice versa.

So the passages, like non-believers should fight believers till they are all annihilated or surrender to them unconditionally, would Muslims still think this passage to be peaceful?

gnostic said:

Icehorse is asking if Muslims would still think the Qur'an is peaceful, if you switch all references to believers (or Muslims) to non-believers, and vice versa.

So the passages, like non-believers should fight believers till they are all annihilated or surrender to them unconditionally, would Muslims still think this passage to be peaceful?

Click to expand...

IIf you are talking about War in Islam, this is a detailed topic, kindly read this thread
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/166260-war-islam-holy-qur.html

Regards
mahmoud

I'm talking about the Quran in general, the topic of warfare would be one small facet of the discussion.

icehorse said:

I'm talking about the Quran in general, the topic of warfare would be one small facet of the discussion.

Click to expand...

I think I understood what you mean icehorse

It seems that you felt bad about the Quran because it repeatedly compare between the love from God, blessings and rewards for the believers who do good deeds (Allatheen Amano wa amelo alsalehat), the curse, threaten, and hard punishment for criminals and nonbelievers in hell. (Alatheen kafaro was zalamo)

Well, to understand why this is repeated ,we must ask ourselves, what is the Goals from the holy Qur’an, meaning what is the message God wants anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim to get by reading any page from it.

The first message in priority is:

To believe in God, love Him and hope for his rewards by doing good deeds, and to fear God punishment, hence fearing of disbelief and making evil deeds.

That’s the main message, God wants any Muslim or non-Muslim to get this message even if he read only one page.

As for how Muslims to treat non-Muslims, God does not have to say this instruction more than once, so when He says in holy Quran to treat any peaceful non-Muslims with goodness and just, He does not repeat it in every page, because this is an order, an instruction that needs no repetition.

But what needs repetition is the main message:

Love God, believe in Him, do good deeds, Fear God, His punishment, do not do evil deeds.

Now imagine a teacher in a class, his students some of them are good, hardworking, on the other hand there is another group who is taking drugs, not studying, and always sexually harass their fellow students’ girls.
What do you expect from this teacher, it’s to always praise his good students, talk about their future success, and at the same time always warn the other students of the consequences of their laziness and bad deeds. This teacher will repeat this message every day on every class to make sure it reaches his good students and bad students evenly.

The holy Quran is a book that wants you to reach heaven, it’s not a book that take care of not hurting non-Muslims feeling by not mentioning the bad punishment for non believing and doing evil deeds, in fact if hurting their feeling will make them think twice and fear hell, and keeps the Muslim away from disbelief and bad deeds, then this message is required.

Regards,
Mahmoud

Let's separate "not believing" from "doing bad deeds" okay?

How about we try a few verses on for size:

“God’s curse be upon the Muslims! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the Muslims.” switched Quran 2:89-2:90

or

“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the Muslims. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” switched Quran 8:12

or

“Non-Believers, make war on the Muslims who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” switched Quran 9:123

I could go on and on... Do these verses sound peaceful?

icehorse said:

I just heard of an interesting thought experiment, I thought I'd share it here...

If we were to go through the Quran and every time the Quran mentions believers or Muslims we changed that to be non-believers, and every time the Quran mentions non-believers or infidels we changed that to be Muslims, would Muslims still claim the book was peaceful?

I'm mostly curious to hear what Muslims would think, but all feedback is welcome

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

Click to expand...

Have you been visiting Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time again?

What a biased website, you can clearly tell that it has very little or no level of professionalism.

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icehorse said:

Let's separate "not believing" from "doing bad deeds" okay?

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[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not believing is itself a bad deed, in Islam there are two kinds of bad deeds:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1- [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Qalbyya) making heart related, it includes, not believing, associating other deities with God in heart feeling worship, envy, being angry and dissatisfied with God ,etc.[/FONT]
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[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2- [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Physical bad deeds, which includes rape, murder, stealing, lying, etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now Let’s Define Disbelief, the word in Arabic is (Kofr) which means hiding the truth, it comes from the Quranic fact that every human is born with normal love for God, this feeling is imprinted in him, so when he is in danger the immediate deity that comes to his head is God the one the only, so he prays Him to save him firm this danger.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]In Sharia there are a number of categories in “Kofr”, since it means hiding the truth, then there are the worst kind who are the old scholars of Judaism and Christianity who knew that the awaited Prophet in their books is prophet Muhammed and they chose to hide it from others, thus leading to other humans mislead.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There are other less degrees of “Kofr”, to hide God blessing, that is to not thank God for his blessings (Many Muslims lies in this category), Also to not apply what God had ordered in the holy Qur’an.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There is also another degree which is ignorant “Kofr”, which is being ignorant of the religion of Islam, and by which not even trying to investigate to know the truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
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[FONT=&quot]So God is most just, he knows what degree of “kofr” is in every person, and he will punish or pardon accordingly.[/FONT]
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icehorse said:

How about we try a few verses on for size:

Click to expand...

[/FONT]

icehorse said:

[FONT=&quot]
“God’s curse be upon the Muslims! Evil is that for which they have bartered away their souls. To deny God’s own revelation, grudging that He should reveal His bounty to whom He chooses from among His servants! They have incurred God’s most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits the Muslims.” switched Quran 2:89-2:90[/FONT]

Click to expand...

[FONT=&quot]Here are the original verses plus the next verses to it:
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]2:89[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And when there came to them a Book from Allah confirming that which was with them - although before they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieved - but [then] when there came to them that which they recognized, they disbelieved in it; so the curse of Allah will be upon the disbelievers.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2:90 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How wretched is that for which they sold themselves - that they would disbelieve in what Allah has revealed through [their] outrage that Allah would send down His favor upon whom He wills from among His servants. So they returned having [earned] wrath upon wrath. And for the disbelievers is a humiliating punishment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2:91 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And when it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah has revealed," they say, "We believe [only] in what was revealed to us." And they disbelieve in what came after it, while it is the truth confirming that which is with them. Say, "Then why did you kill the prophets of Allah before, if you are [indeed] believers?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2:92 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Moses had certainly brought you clear proofs. Then you took the calf [in worship] after that, while you were wrongdoers.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Look at the last verse ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]And Moses had certainly brought you clear proofs[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ) It Clearly talks about old Jews scholars who knew that the awaited Prophet in their books is prophet Muhammad and they choose to hide this fact and deny it, thus leading to other humans mislead, this is the worst kind of “Kofr“.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]

icehorse said:

or

“I shall cast terror into the hearts of the Muslims. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.” switched Quran 8:12

Click to expand...

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Here are the original verses plus the verses before and after it:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:9 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [Remember] when you asked help of your Lord, and He answered you, "Indeed, I will reinforce you with a thousand from the angels, following one another."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:10 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Allah made it not but good tidings and so that your hearts would be assured thereby. And victory is not but from Allah . Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:11 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:12 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:13 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That is because they opposed Allah and His Messenger. And whoever opposes Allah and His Messenger - indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:14 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"That [is yours], so taste it." And indeed for the disbelievers is the punishment of the Fire.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8:15 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you read the verses before the verse 8:12, and you have read any book illustrating the life of the Prophet, you will know that it talks about the first battle between Muslim and Quraish pagans, “Badr” Battle, and if you read the last verse your will again see the assurance that it talks about battle. So you feel bad about the holy Quran talking about in battle soldiers encouragement?!. Then you simply imply that any in battle soldier’s encouragement by any book in any nation is evil.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

icehorse said:

or
“Non-Believers, make war on the Muslims who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous.” switched Quran 9:123

Click to expand...

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here are the original verses plus the verses before it:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9:120 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It was not [proper] for the people of Madinah and those surrounding them of the bedouins that they remain behind after [the departure of] the Messenger of Allah or that they prefer themselves over his self. That is because they are not afflicted by thirst or fatigue or hunger in the cause of Allah , nor do they tread on any ground that enrages the disbelievers, nor do they inflict upon an enemy any infliction but that is registered for them as a righteous deed. Indeed, Allah does not allow to be lost the reward of the doers of good.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9:121 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nor do they spend an expenditure, small or large, or cross a valley but that it is registered for them that Allah may reward them for the best of what they were doing.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9:122 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And it is not for the believers to go forth [to battle] all at once. For there should separate from every division of them a group [remaining] to obtain understanding in the religion and warn their people when they return to them that they might be cautious.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9:123 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These verses clearly talk about war, where the Muslim country [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Madinah [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was threated both by Surrounding tribes ,and the roman Byznatian empire, the whole chapter 9 is call “Altawbaa” which means repentance, it means the repentance of Some Muslims who has left the prophet and did not join the army when [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Madinah [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was attacked.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

icehorse said:

I could go on and on... Do these verses sound peaceful?

Click to expand...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Kindly go on.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mahmoud[/FONT]

Hi Mahmoud,

My understanding is that the two ideas most central to Islam are:

1 - The Quran is the final, perfect, unalterable word of God.
2 - Muhammad is the perfect role model of a human being.

Correct?

Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace, correct?

What I see in your explanation is that the perfect book of the religion of peace spends many, many pages being a war manual. This doesn't seem peaceful to me.

Gandhi was a man of peace, he spent zero pages on war strategy.

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

i think you dont understand it at all. it takes guts to read yourself as muslim when you have quran open in front of you. "thank god doors of forgiveness is always open" is all you can think of at the back of your head. all that the god has given to you and what have you done inreturn? did you do good enough, your heart, your faith was pure enough?did you upset your mother,was your prayer right,pure? you dont even have the means to thank for one single breath of yours.
you can never be muslim enough, if might and generocity of god is even slightly understood.
hardly any fool would read themselves as muslim when quran is open right in front of them.
but when you close it you can perhaps remember the ayah in which people happily said they were muslim.. once again you ask for forgiveness..and at last,right there, you feel peace.

Hi ametist,

Thank you for that explanation! This view of the world is very, very, very different than the one I learned. Do you think that your view is all about Islam, or is it perhaps some combination of Islam and the culture you were raised in? (Sorry for temporarily changing the topic, I'm really interested in what you just wrote!)

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defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

It wouldn't make any sense. The word muslims doesnt refer to a certain group of people who were born muslims. It rather describes wonderful things and good deeds a person does. Look out the meaning of the word muslim in the Quraan.

On the other hand, non believing men refer to people who already know the truth but dont want to follow and work on decieving people.

Muslims should be rewarded and hypocrites and decieving people should be punished. This does make sense. It is about justice and not about peaceful or not. So switching the two terms would not make sense.

How would a muslim who does good deeds be punished and a hypocrite get rewarded? This doesn't make any sense so the question is invalid. It is just a tool to mess up minds trying to play on emotions.

Hi One_Answer,

It's not a trick to try to mess up minds. It's an experiment to try to increase empathy. In other words, it might help people see the world from another person's perspective.

icehorse said:

Hi One_Answer,

It's not a trick to try to mess up minds. It's an experiment to try to increase empathy. In other words, it might help people see the world from another person's perspective.

Click to expand...

And I explained why it doesn't work.


Non believers as I explained are defined by their acts as well as believers and the doers of good deeds are defined by their acts. Hence there is reward and punishment. This is justice.

So one can not suggest switching the two terms. It doeant make any sense. It would be like doers of good deeds will go to hell and the deceiving pple and the hypocrites and killers would enjoy heaven.

This doesnt make any sense for a normal person

Hi One_Answer,

Of course it doesn't make sense on all levels. The idea of a "thought experiment" is to create an artificial situation and see if anything new can be learned from the perspective of the artificial situation. In this case, the idea is for Muslims to try to see the world from the perspective of a non-Muslim.

I can tell you - as a non-Muslim - that the way that I see the Quran is very, very different than the way you see it. If we do this "thought experiment" you might get a small experience of how someone like me sees your book.

icehorse said:

Hi One_Answer,

Of course it doesn't make sense on all levels. The idea of a "thought experiment" is to create an artificial situation and see if anything new can be learned from the perspective of the artificial situation. In this case, the idea is for Muslims to try to see the world from the perspective of a non-Muslim.

I can tell you - as a non-Muslim - that the way that I see the Quran is very, very different than the way you see it. If we do this "thought experiment" you might get a small experience of how someone like me sees your book.

Click to expand...

So what you want me to act as the non believer who knows that Islam is the true religion bit hiding it from people and trying to decieve them for personal gains in this life ? Now I am goig to hell because of my own hands? Well I deserve that.



Since we are playing this game, tell me what did you do to deserve to go to heaven? And how do you feel about it ?

0ne-answer said:

So what you want me to act as the non believer who knows that Islam is the true religion bit hiding it from people and trying to decieve them for personal gains in this life ? Now I am goig to hell because of my own hands? Well I deserve that.

Click to expand...

Well a non-believer doesn't think Islam is the true religion. You have to - temporarily - try to see the world through the eyes of the non-believer. Once the experiment is over, you can go back to believing. But if Islam is a peaceful religion, then doing such an experiment should do nothing but promote peace.

0ne-answer said:

Since we are playing this game, tell me what did you do to deserve to go to heaven? And how do you feel about it ?

Click to expand...

Well I don't believe in heaven and hell. I could try to imagine that I did though. If I believed in heaven and hell then I think that what *should* get me into heaven would be how kind I was, how much I helped others, stuff like that. I don't think it should be based on whether I believe the words in an old book. So action not belief.

icehorse said:

Well a non-believer doesn't think Islam is the true religion. You have to - temporarily - try to see the world through the eyes of the non-believer. Once the experiment is over, you can go back to believing. But if Islam is a peaceful religion, then doing such an experiment should do nothing but promote peace.



Well I don't believe in heaven and hell. I could try to imagine that I did though. If I believed in heaven and hell then I think that what *should* get me into heaven would be how kind I was, how much I helped others, stuff like that. I don't think it should be based on whether I believe the words in an old book. So action not belief.

Click to expand...

You have to search the meaning of a non believer as mentioned in the Quraan. You can't come here and define your own understanding of a non believer.