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Without blood there is no...whoops

dawny0826

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
crossfire said:
You don't purify your mind through cruel acts and blood sacrifices. Simply projecting your mental hang ups onto others doesn't work--that is self-delusion. You want to wake up from your self-delusion. You have to purify your mind so you don't do these sins. Projecting your sins onto others in hopes your own mental problems go away does not work--you are deluding yourself if you think it does. You have to do the soul-searching and fix yourself.
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Did you think that a Christian would come along and refute this? :shrug:
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
InChrist said:
I must disagree and I think this verse quoted above in Romans is out of context. That passage in Romans is speaking to believers who are alive about living as if they are dead to sin and alive in Christ...Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord (verse 11), This is not in anyway indicating that anyone must or even possibly could gain absolute forgiveness for their sins by their own death or shed blood and I believe any such doctrine is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are numerous verses and passages in the scriptures which show that believers are forgiven and cleansed from sin while they are alive and only through the blood of Christ which has already been shed once and for all.


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence...Eph. 1:7-8

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Col. 1:13-14

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1 John 1:7-9
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If this were true, then those who are following Christ would not be subject to death. Yet for the past 2,000 years, christians have been dying....even Christs Apostles died including all those believers to whom it was said they were " dead to sin and alive in Christ "

If they were dead to sin, then why did they still die physically?

Adam was told that he would die IF he ate from the tree. It stands to reason, that if he obeyed God and never ate from the fruit, he would never have died. So it is that perfect 'obedience' would lead us to 'ever lasting life' as Jesus said:
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

The fact that Jesus tells us that 'everlasting life' is even possible implies that mankind are not supposed to die at all. Our sin is why we die. Remove the sin and we will not die.
 
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Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
Is not the altar (Mizbe’ach) where the blood is sprinkled and drained out (verse 9) the same altar upon which the flour is burned (verse 12)?
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I appreciate your thoughtfulness in quoting to me from the Orthodox Jewish Bible, but that bible is actually a Protestant bible, not a Jewish one.

Anyway, although there are two altars, the other one is only used for incense. So everything else was done on this altar. That doesn't mean that it has to be sacrificed with the animal offerings necessarily. It just means everything gets tossed onto the same fire.

nazz said:
I'll see your 9:22 and raise you 10:24...

Heb 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

;)
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Touche monseigneur.

Pegg said:
Absolutely spot on.

what Tumah failed to point out about the scripture in Leviticus 5 is this:

“‘Now if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, he must bring as his offering for his sin a tenth of an e′phah of fine flour for a sin offering.

Not all Isrealites could afford to buy an animal for sacrificing. The poorer isrealites were given the option of offering something they could afford.

When we put it in context, we can see that the flour and grain sacrifices were for the poor to offer as a sin offering. If you were not poor, you would have been offering the required blood sacrifices.
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Be that as it may, what we see from here is that it is absolutely possible to receive atonement without any blood.

dawny0826 said:
And in Leviticus 9, Moses instructs Aaron and his sons to kill a calf as a sin offering.

This isn't the only reference to sacrificial sin offerings.

What am I missing?
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That even though most of the sacrifices are animal sacrifices, not all of them are. Therefore the statement, "without blood there is no atonement" in Hebrews is not true.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Tumah said:
Be that as it may, what we see from here is that it is absolutely possible to receive atonement without any blood.
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but not possible to be 'absolutely exonerated' of the consequences of sin, namely death.

God will forgive, but he will not give exemption from punishment as Numbers 14:18  says: ‘Jehovah, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, pardoning error and transgression, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of the fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.’


How can we get exemption from the punishment of death inflicted upon our first father Adam?
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Pegg said:
but not possible to be 'absolutely exonerated' of the consequences of sin, namely death.

God will forgive, but he will not give exemption from punishment as Numbers 14:18  says: ‘Jehovah, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness, pardoning error and transgression, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of the fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.’


How can we get exemption from the punishment of death inflicted upon our first father Adam?
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That is definitely possible as we see from Enoch, Elijah and others.

But really that's besides the point. The sacrificial system are for sins that I do. Shedding blood is not the only way to gain atonement for those sins. That is the point. There are no verses that says, "and it will be partially forgiven him." There are verses that say, "and it will be forgiven him."

Also, your Bible's doing it wrong. It says:
G-d, long faced (ie. long fused), abundant kindness, bears sin and transgression; and cleans, doesn't clean (see Ex. 33:19); redeems the sin of the father on the sons, on the thirds and on the fourths.

Regardless, that didn't really change with Jesus either, now did it? JWs are still dying.
 
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Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Tumah said:
That is definitely possible as we see from Enoch, Elijah and others.
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Enoch didn't continue to live. He was taken in death to protect him from the wicked people of that time. Death is death....it doesn't mean life.

Tumah said:
But really that's besides the point. The sacrificial system are for sins that I do. Shedding blood is not the only way to gain atonement for those sins. That is the point. There are no verses that says, "and it will be partially forgiven him." There are verses that say, "and it will be forgiven him."
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only if you are a poor person remember. Blood sacrifices were required by all unless someone couldn't afford to present them.


Tumah said:
Also, your Bible's doing it wrong. It says:
G-d, long faced (ie. long fused), abundant kindness, bears sin and transgression; and cleans, doesn't clean (see Ex. 33:19); redeems the sin of the father on the sons, on the thirds and on the fourths.
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you are quoting a completely different verse.

My quote is from Numbers 14:18. What is wrong about it? It says that the consequences of sin are not removed from anyone.
Even King David was not protected from the consequences of his sins. His child died even though he prayed all night for its deliverance.

Not even the Gods anointed ones are spared from the reality of sin and death.

Tumah said:
Regardless, that didn't really change with Jesus either, now did it? JWs are still dying.
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Not yet. But we havnt' entered the judgement day yet. When we do, the dead will rise and death will be removed.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Pegg said:
Enoch didn't continue to live. He was taken in death to protect him from the wicked people of that time. Death is death....it doesn't mean life.
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I see. So you think the fact that it says, "and he died" by everyone on the list except for Enoch is just a typo. Gotcha.

Pegg said:
only if you are a poor person remember. Blood sacrifices were required by all unless someone couldn't afford to present them.
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Yes, you keep repeating that and I keep agreeing to it. But that doesn't change the fact that we see that it is possible for there to be atonement without blood.

Pegg said:
you are quoting a completely different verse.

My quote is from Numbers 14:18. What is wrong about it? It says that the consequences of sin are not removed from anyone.
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No ma'am. That was the verse you quoted. I just didn't add any extra words to make it fit an agenda as your did. If you'd like I can post the Hebrew alongside the English, so you can see that for yourself.

Pegg said:
Even King David was not protected from the consequences of his sins. His child died even though he prayed all night for its deliverance.

Not even the Gods anointed ones are spared from the reality of sin and death.
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G-d had a lot of anointed ones. Being anointed doesn't mean that one gets a get out of jail free card. It means that one is chosen to fill a certain position.

Elijah on the other hand, as all prophets and kings were, was also anointed and he did not die.

Pegg said:
Not yet. But we havnt' entered the judgement day yet. When we do, the dead will rise and death will be removed.
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Cool. Same here.
.
.
Kinda makes Jesus superfluous, doesn't it?
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Pegg said:
Not if Jesus IS the resurrection.

He is the one who will be brining back the dead...and the one who will be removing the wicked.
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Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
We are getting the same effect just without the middleman.
 
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